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ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

So what is a religion then tazzygirl, is it the original ideas of those who created those religions, or do we pick and choose what is part of the religion after what is politically correct to day? What is the basis of a religion, it's heart, and when we change to much of a religion, do we not really create a new religion, with a new set of ideas, based on, but hardly the same as the old?

As for Socrates.Off course some of his ideas have been disproven, but they are still part of his work, they are not written out of his work and no longer credited him, even if they are not practiced any longer.

Society change, but how much can we change an idea, before it is no longer that idea, but are a new concept all and off itself?

Be Well

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ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Of course, religion is just an excuse for racism, or tribalism if you prefer: you can do what you want to goyim, just don't enslave a neighbour:

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ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Of course, religion is just an excuse for racism, or tribalism if you prefer: you can do what you want to goyim, just don't enslave a neighbour:

And as for thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, whom thou mayest have: of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them may ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they have begotten in your land; and they may be your possession. And ye may make them an inheritance for your children after you, to hold for a possession: of them may ye take your bondmen for ever; but over your brethren the children of Israel ye shall not rule, one over another, with rigour. JPS Leviticus 25:44-46

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Actually, i would not consider that a religious ceremony, no more than i would have considered the poisoning of over 900 people by the order of Jim Jones.

As i have said before, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

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Since all this began, i have often said that my idea of religion isnt the same as mainstreams. Curious that no one has asked me what i meant by that.

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ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

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Actually, i would not consider that a religious ceremony, no more than i would have considered the poisoning of over 900 people by the order of Jim Jones.

As i have said before, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

So in your mind, religions ceremonies have to be good and fluffy? If they are brutal, murderous, cruel, bloody or just pain not political correct then they are not religions ceremonies, then they are not rituals done for religions reasons? Interesting idea of religion.

I wish you well.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Just because an act is done in the name of religion doesnt mean the religion demands the act be committed. Man (or woman) can act upon their own, for various reasons, greed and power being two very driving forces, both of which have very little to do with religion, and alot to do with the internal desires of man.

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ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

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Since all this began, i have often said that my idea of religion isnt the same as mainstreams. Curious that no one has asked me what i meant by that.

Your religion or your idea of religion. The two are not the same thing. Your religion is what you see as your spiritual path in life. And by all means, tell us what your religion is. Your idea of religion is what you see as a religions idea, what being religious is, and to be honest most pepole do not see their religion as a love and butterflies teaching method, but instead see a path to become closer to the Spiritual. What you want to have as a religion, that is up to you. But if what you describe in your post is your idea for every religion then I could not disagree with you more. Religion is not just a set of moral codes, it is a path to understand and get closer to something which are greater than us self, it is a way to attempt to understand the world around us.

However what I asked you was not what your idea of religion was. I asked you, is it still the same religion. Is it this Christianity, or Islam or Wicca or whatever if we just rip out any ideas which do not suit us? Or have we then made a new religion? Not one of less worth, but still new. If I take a dress and cut it up and use the fabric to make a shirt, is that shirt still a dress?

I wish you well

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But if what you describe in your post is your idea for every religion then I could not disagree with you more. Religion is not just a set of moral codes, it is a path to understand and get closer to something which are greater than us self, it is a way to attempt to understand the world around us.

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Just because an act is done in the name of religion doesnt mean the religion demands the act be committed. Man (or woman) can act upon their own, for various reasons, greed and power being two very driving forces, both of which have very little to do with religion, and alot to do with the internal desires of man.

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It is your right to state your views, and mine to state mine. We dont have to agree. Too bad many cant understand that by putting others down, they are simply lowering themsleves.

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I gave you my idea of my religion, and know many who share the same sentiments. I dont understand what is so hard about my post. Everything evolves in time, even humans. Yet you remain steadfast in the notion that religion cannot change.

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In essence, saying people cannot change. In the course of the writings of the bible, things changed. It went from having to sacrifice a lamb in order to communicate with god, to not having too because god sacrificed his own son, the ultimate lamb, according to the bible.

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I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that i was speaking for every religion or that i believed this is how all religions should be.

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If in doubt, it would be better to ask than to assume.

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So if a religion do not call for something to be done, then it is not a religious ritual. When I say grace before eating it is not a religious ritual because Pagan religions to not call for such rituals to be done?

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I have not said religions can not change. I have asked at what point do it stop being the old religion, and start being a completely new religion?

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Go back, read my posts again. I have never said religions or pepole can not change. I have said that if you change a religion to much, it becomes a whole new religions. Just like if you cut up a dress and make a shirt, it becomes another type of clothing. Not better, not worse, but different.

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It seams to me, and I may be wrong here, that you think I am a Atheist or a rabid Pagan or some other who is trying to peg negativity on Christianity for beliefs that Christians have had in the past, or that are written in the Bible, and that you have locked yourself into this mindset when reading my posts so you do not read what are really there. While I on the other hand are only asking, can one change a religion completely, take out every original idea, and will it still be the same religion, or a new religion all together? Try to stop being on the defensive and think I am attacking you, and read what is actually there, instead of what you think I have written and this conversation will go allot more smoothly.

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A religion can ask of many things. But when what someone does goes directly against that religion, is it still being done in the spirit of that religion? For example. The Catholic Priests have been under the gun for pedophilia over the years. Do you consider that a religious act?

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At the point that we allow that to happen. Christians have not changed the spirit of their religion.

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But, because people have found ways to twist or distort what is the basics of that religion, then they claim it has indeed changed. How many times have we changed the laws of our country? Yet, no one asks if this is still the USA.

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And i answered that. If the dress had deep meaning for someone, and it was cut up to make a shirt, then does the meaning change?

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If they did it for religious reasons and not because they where in a position of high social influence and could get away it it, then yes it would be a religious act. Would it be a Christian or Catholic act however, no. However you are still not answering my question. If you do a ritual in the name of religion that the religion have not asked for, do you still consider that a religious act. You said that several brutal things done in the name of Christianity are not religious act. I disagree, if something is done for spiritual reasons, it is religious acts, but it might be religious acts that go against the religion one claim to be following.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Christians have not changed the spirit of their religion.

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How many times have we changed the laws of our country? Yet, no one asks if this is still the USA.

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I would still see, say, my wedding dress even if i cut it up to make a shirt.

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The fact that english is not your first language creates a barrier.

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The changes i see in many religions are not occuring from within, but from without. Funny how that works.

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She is too polite to say it, but the problem here is not a language barrier, but rather the clenching of your mental sphincter.

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The changes i see in many religions are not occuring from within, but from without. Funny how that works.

Indeed. Funny how law takes precedence over conviction, while people like rev. Martin L. King, Jr. have noted (and, I might add, rightly so) that we have a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws, and to obey just ones. Which if, as you say, our morality derives from our faith, either means that the laws do not require the faith to change, or that the laws are unjust, and should be disobeyed, not incorporated into our religion.

This fundamental lack of integrity is reprehensible, and is not morality.

Rather, it is following the path of least resistance.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Tazzy, so it's kind of like "Guns don't kill people. Assholes with guns kill people." Only this time it "Religion doesn't kill, maim, demean or belittle people. Assholes with religion kill, main demean or belittle people?" :grin:

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Well, Master, you can assure her my mental sphincter is just fine. and i am way too polite to say much more than that.

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I was not referring to law here, Master.

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slavery during the time of the bible being written was acceptable, socially as well as legally. It is not so now.

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Religion had no choice but to bow to that.

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I dont view that as a bad thing, i dont believe anyone should be an involuntary slave, outside of the lifestyle.

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But, i will also point out that we are speaking of writings from over 2000 years ago.

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Are there parts of the Koran that are no longer revelavant?

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The history you cannot change... it is set in stone.... all we can change is the future... and that is the change religion faces, inside and from the outside, whether by choice or not.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Master, i do believe, finally, you are starting to understand what i am saying.

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Incorrect. Prison work falls under that heading, and is legitimized by the exception in the amendment that abolished slavery without explicit sanction by the state. Furthermore, slavery and some things that are effectively the same as slavery, are acceptable in some parts of the world. Also, the slave trade is alive and well, with Israel being one of the nations that has done the least to combat it. In fact, the slave trade thrives in Israel, and is growing.

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Bullshit.

In ancient Rome, a father had to claim a child for it to be considered his son. If he did not, the child was left to die from exposure, and it was illegal to adopt a child that had been left to die from exposure. The early Christians risked being executed by crucifixion in order to follow their religion, by collecting these children and adopting them. It brought an end to the practice of abandoning children to die in Rome. In the USA, Martin L. King, Jr., spent time in prison, and fought against the laws and norms of society, on account of his religious beliefs. Now, the beliefs he fought for have become so ingrained in our society that looking back at his time is like thinking back on 80's hairdo and cringing. It's a radical change. And around the world, many listen to Krishnamurti as he tells them that they must seek their own path, and not be concerned with what the law and norms of their society says. Ghandi led thousands of followers in a protest march to the sea, in order to violate the British colonial laws right under their very noses, in effect telling the British that "I will not be swayed in my beliefs, and there are so many people who follow my lead that if you arrest me, they will tear you to shreds." And the colonial administration folded.

Religion does not bow. Religious people bow. Weak ones, at least.