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RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/14/2009 8:17:10 PM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 444
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


Face it, if the pope tells everyone to go burn Italy to the ground, he is going to meet with an unfortunate and accidental fall down the tallest flight of stairs in the Vatican, and someone will accidentally step on his neck when he lands, just to make sure. A number of people will be saying some additional Hail Marys for a while after that, ostensibly to ward off further bad luck and to atone for whatever sins may have caused such bad luck to descend on the Vatican.


Do you really not know that the Vatican is NOT part of Italy?
wow

John, AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/14/2009 8:34:33 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Just because an act is done in the name of religion doesnt mean the religion demands the act be committed.


Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18 Seems pretty demanding to me.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/14/2009 8:39:31 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl2.htm

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/14/2009 10:22:50 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

Ok, now I know you are not reading my posts. You wrote:

quote:

And i disagree with you. They did it for their own reasons, typically power and money..... and could get away with it. If you are "trying" to get away with something, i would already classify that as a non religious act.


In reply to me writing:

quote:

If they did it for religious reasons and not because they where in a position of high social influence and could get away it it, then yes it would be a religious act.


Where in the above do I say that it is a religious act if done for the reasons that they wanted to and could get away with it. or whatever other non religious reasons they may have. I said that if it was done for religious reasons, then it would be a religious act, I did not say that it was a religious act.

Now I am dropping this line of debate, because A raped altar boys are against the TOS to discuss and B I see no reason to continue talking with someone who obviously do not read my posts but instead read half and make up in her own mind about what it was I said. Feel free to continue having this debate making up replies for me, you seam to be so good at it already you will hardly notice I am gone.

I wish you well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 1:58:49 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

ah, thank you Master, belittlement always works best.


Beratement was the intent, and stands

The belittlement was unfortunate, and I apologize for that.

quote:

Crime and punishment are equally given to the religious as to the non religious. In this part of the world, slavery is not, and that was the standpoint i was coming from. I do not live outside the US, nor would i speak about things i know nothing about.


I never argued that the penal system differentiates between religious and non-religious prisoners. I was pointing out that the penal system legitimizes forced labor via a part of the constitutional amendment that abolishes slavery. Or, to put it differently, that the penal system implements slavery as a punishment.

quote:

And yet again you chose what you wished to read. Religion does have to bow to legalities, in some cases. And in some, we chose to lead the fight.


I chose to read everything. To clarify my reply: if religion is the vessel of morality in your view, then it is a compromise of morals to obey a law that contradicts your religious convictions, whereas the law doesn't require anything that isn't already required of you in the cases where your religious convictions are the same as the law. Compromising morals in order to obey the law is, in my view, taking the easy way out by not really standing for anything, which makes faith and conviction an impotent thing, at best. And in the case where religious conviction and law are the same, one of the two will be unneccessary. In short, they are two seperate things, and one must decide which is the more important part of one's morality.

quote:

And thats what many who dont believe in religion hate.


I never said I don't believe in religion. On the contrary.

quote:

And, frankly, Master, i have been quite nice in this. Now, i am done with it. It is no longer enjoyable. I thank you for that.


That is up to you, of course. And I don't quite get where the appellation is coming from.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 2:12:42 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinnardin

Do you really not know that the Vatican is NOT part of Italy?


The Vatican is a seperate country, though located about smack middle in the Italian peninsula (the knee, if you will), if memory serves. Nowhere did I state that it was part of the country Italy, though I will admit that it was vaguely put. I believe I still have a map of the darn thing for an old pen and paper campaign that was set some years prior to the onset of the Albigensian crusade, with some of the key characters having strong ties to the Cathars.

Which is not to say I have half a clue about geography in general, though.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Dinnardin)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 2:23:00 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18 Seems pretty demanding to me.


Out of the gazillions of demanding and seemingly absurd passages, that is one of the few ambiguous ones.

They all make sense, though, when you consider that a lot of them are practical advice, community building, and a series of prohibitions against the cultural praxes of the Canaanites. If these bits hadn't been in place, there would be no Jews. There would only be Canaanites, including a group of Canaanites that would have used to be Egyptian slaves that ... well, who didn't enslave them or drive them out? Might as well be one of their own, for a change. Bought them time to form an identity of their own, as a people, to regain a sense of self.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 3:11:29 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Just because an act is done in the name of religion doesnt mean the religion demands the act be committed.


Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18 Seems pretty demanding to me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl2.htm


I do not understand this reference tazzy?  It quite clearly states that the bible instructs that a woman be put to death if they practice 'evil'/harm to others (let's leave the interpretaion of evil aside for now).
So the bible instructs murder - or at the very basic, the right not to 'live'.  Is that not religion demanding an act to be commited?

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 5:00:03 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		lol... i can never figure out which of you i may be talking too. Exodus is one of the first books of the bible. Remember me saying how, as people mature, so does everything about people? Politics, religion, health care, science, philosophy, ect.

I tossed up that link because i know many wiccans... many who would take great offence at that reference. a reference that just isnt true. Good vs evil... isnt that the primary message in the bible? The secondary one... free will. We have the ability to understand the differences. 2000 years ago, would they have? I dont know. I cant say. I wont assume. There is much of the bible these days that makes no sense... that did back then. People want to trash it... and they do so... and i settle back and chuckle. Its something that has changed, yet remained, for over 2000 years. Good luck.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 6:09:24 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I don't know if it can be claimed that the primary message of the bible is good vs. evil.  I find that a very big assumption.  I have never taken it that way nor attended any lectures or meetings that have indicated it as the primary message.  But different continents and different experiences hey.

The thing that confuses me about that link though tazzy is that it doesn't hold up the point I believe you were trying to make.
Its a link that shows the bird to people who try and point out that wiccans or pagans were the ones to receive this punishment.  I do get that people mature.  Religious text doesn't.  Human understanding of it does - but that still does not take away the fact that the religious teaching in that book states that those who fall under the criteria should lose the ability to live.
In the end - take out what or who it's supposed to be discriminating against -  all it does is show that religion does discriminate.  But then again - so does BDSM.  So does abortion.  So do countless doctrines, beliefs and non beliefs.  But then I am comfortable with unequality.  Many people are not and are so desperate to find a commonality with other people they lose sight of a persons individuality.  The result?  There are so many people who are frightened and lost in the world and that struggle because of 'equality'.  So then... life discriminates.

Evolution wouldn't take place if it didn't.




And hey... I don't believe in luck.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 6:33:17 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Im often confused how people can take so much from a book that means so little to them, yet not understand the changes even within that book. Some read it verse by verse. And if that works for them, so be it. Some of us dont. The bible, along with other books, at times condradicts itself. That doesnt mean the whole message is wrong. For those who have read the bible from cover to cover, did no one notice the changes?

Edited to add...

I dont believe i ever said that religion doesnt discriminate. I pointed out that it changes

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Being discriminated based upon religious affiliation is just as bad as it is due to race, handicap, age, ect. You shouldnt have to change your sex or race to get a job... nor should you have to hide your religious affiliation.


This was all the result of a conversation i had with someone.... starting with...


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
I never liked that fact that to Muslims, I'm just an Infidel.

Then quit your whinging and grow a beard.
quote:


Rather than the religion doing the discriminating, it's the people that discriminate.

True, religious texts are so open ended the true interpretation is all in the mind of the individual.


The moving off into the ten commandments and what god expected of me.

But, Spinner has the right of it....


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Religion has never hurt anyone. Religion has neveer killed, maimed, demeaned, belittled or anything else.


Tazzy, so it's kind of like "Guns don't kill people. Assholes with guns kill people." Only this time it "Religion doesn't kill, maim, demean or belittle people. Assholes with religion kill, main demean or belittle people? :Grin:




Anything can be read and distorted to suit a particular view. Taken out of context, many things available today can be seen as worse than they were when they were written. As we grow as humans in understanding and "enlightenment" of the world around us and the people within, its odd that we dont take that into consideration when dealing with things from the past.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/15/2009 6:42:30 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 6:55:10 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
For those who have read the bible from cover to cover, did no one notice the changes?


I am not really sure about the rest of your thread or what your attempting to get across.  So I'll just stick to the bit that is relevant to me.
I do not see contradictions or changes as such because I don't see the bible as a whole and only book.  Even within the individual books, I never read it as written by one author.  I read it more like a big old collection of thoughts and references by a huge amount of people.
But religion does discriminate.  If it did not it would be all encompassing, and that just isn't the case.

Someone even suggested earlier
quote:

we could all become Baha'i and end all the bickering.


Nope.  Because in this case, it's homosexuality that is discriminated against.  Baha'i isn't part of the whole commonality swing either.

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 6:59:26 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Religion doesnt discriminate. The people do.

An object can do nothing... until someone takes up said object and uses it.

How that person uses what they have picked up is extremely personal to that person.

As shown on these threads, two people can read the same post and come away with totally different meanings.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 7:10:08 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I am going to respond to your edit.

I see that religion used as a tool, just as a gun.  However there are some really heavy texts that do openly discriminate against others and that has nothing to do with misinterpretation.

A gun is a gun.  It doesn't go off until it's used, trigger pulled, dropped etc... it's a gun.
Religious text is also a tool, that isn't deadly until it is used.

Take all the god/goddess/gods out of the equasion for a moment.

Let's just focus on the assumption that man created religion.  If man is the discriminator, then that then makes religion discriminatory.  That in turn, goes out into the world and is picked up by another man who maybe misinterpretes it.  Maybe uses it not how it's supposed to be used.  It's still has it's original function.

So man created a gun.  If the man made the gun to cause impact to something, that makes it a weapon.  That in turn, goes out into the world and is picked up by another man who maybe misinterpretes it.  Maybe uses it not how it is supposed to be used.  It still has it's original function.

The difference is that with a gun, beyond how to clean and hold it - there is no real rule to it.  You point it and pull the trigger - it fires.  Who get's hit by the bullet or the butt of the gun has no relevance to it's maker.
In religion, it does.

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 1:26:29 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And i see no difference between a gun, knife, pillow, religion, philosophy, ect. Its all in how they are used. I also dont view the Bible as a series of short stories. On the whole, its a fascinating read. a well written piece of literature filled with both history and fiction.

If i take parts of the bible literally, then what crimes i commit, even though the same book tells me not to commit them, most would call a "religious act". The religion didnt act... i did. 2000 years ago, we may have gotten away with... i didnt know any better. In the elightened state... and i call this time enlightened in comparison to then because we have grown in understanding and knowledge in both science and humanity... that excuse just wont fly. Why? Because i did know better.

And that is why i say... a person who commits an act in the name of religion isnt necessarily committing a religious act.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 2:48:23 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18 Seems pretty demanding to me.


The correct translation is "poisoner" not witch. That is one of the grammatical errors in the King James version. Many historians believe that they were not even errors at all but changes made at the insisitence of the king.



_____________________________

What man is a man who does not make his world better?


Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 2:53:18 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18 Seems pretty demanding to me.


Actually, that's just one of the many mistranslations in the commonly used bible. The word translated as "witch" is more accuratly translated as "poisoner". Likewise, there is no commandment stating "Thou shalt not kill". It is more correctly translated as "Thou shalt not murder". Also interestingly enough, the word translated as "virgin" in the immaculate conception tales of Mary translates more accuratly to "a young girl".

Translation makes a lot of difference.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/15/2009 6:37:19 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		Regardless of how one thinks the bible should or should not have been translated somewhere between 40,000 to 100,000 people were killed because of a religious belief based on that passage.

Here's another bible passage demanding discrimination: "An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:" Deuteronomy 23:3

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 9/15/2009 6:56:20 PM >

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/16/2009 12:41:31 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		tazzy-
Whilst I agree that it can be used as a tool - that I don't deny - by your explaination - then organisations like the KKK and the BNP are not discriminatory.  Only the people in them are.  Correct?

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Religion Discriminates - 9/25/2009 11:45:39 PM   
knees2you


Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

It's PEOPLE and not Religions that discriminate.
 
Ah But some do!
 
Always, knees~

(in reply to Esinn)
Profile   Post #: 100
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