RE: Red flags (Full Version)

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porcelaine -> RE: Red flags (9/11/2009 3:16:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MartinP
For example, on this forum and others, some masters praise themselves for slowing inducing the slave to ever new aspects of servitude. By their own admission, they are not candid about their master-plan (pardon the pun) and do not necesseraly draw for their sub a complete picture of what is to become of her. These are information of great importance kept from the other.

Now, this is what I call a nasty lie by omission and a red flag


this subject came up on during a discussion amongst slaves. i'm amazed what people will confess in shared company. many noted that "master" had developed interests in certain things or neglected to state them before they became involved. as you might imagine the truth came out and in some instances there were admissions that the discoveries weren't that at all. yet and still they defended them for whatever reasons i can't wrap my brain around.

i was pretty dumbfounded because these weren't garden variety kinks but spoke of dramatic shifts in the dynamic. for most it was a very painful experience and their struggles left an indelible mark in my head. i cannot say i'd be able to do the same. but i respect they felt they did what was right for them.

porcelaine



stillholdson -> RE: Red flags (9/11/2009 3:21:11 PM)

fr

I saw something on these about pushing to move things too fast.

I for one don't like to wait too long to see if there is actual chemisty after emailing, im's, phone.I would rather find out sooner than later.



MartinP -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 11:25:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine


this subject came up on during a discussion amongst slaves. i'm amazed what people will confess in shared company. many noted that "master" had developed interests in certain things or neglected to state them before they became involved. as you might imagine the truth came out and in some instances there were admissions that the discoveries weren't that at all. yet and still they defended them for whatever reasons i can't wrap my brain around.

i was pretty dumbfounded because these weren't garden variety kinks but spoke of dramatic shifts in the dynamic. for most it was a very painful experience and their struggles left an indelible mark in my head. i cannot say i'd be able to do the same. but i respect they felt they did what was right for them.

porcelaine



porcelaine,

I must say that this is difficult to stomach. Please excuse me to say this quite bluntly, but it is difficult to believe.

Do I interpret you correctly with this example?
the master described the relation limited to some play, a bit of nudity and the occasional spanking.
After some months the slave is surprised to live in complete nudity, eat on the floor from a bowl and ito be regurarly caned.
Nothing of the new treatment has ever been mentionned as an option, or just in a blanket statement.

Shifting the goal or hiding his own true objectives in a relationship based on trust is dishonest. If such tricks are used against a person who basically put herself at your mercy, it not just dishonest, it is disgusting [:'(].

I really hope that I did not correctly understand you.

I remember

Martin



mnottertail -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 11:31:15 AM)

But I agree with Ninon L'Enclos that a woman should be accustomed by degrees into submission.................if that means I agree with porcelaine........

I can live with that.

Ron

shouldn't we seek white flags?



porcelaine -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 3:12:05 PM)

quote:


porcelaine
quote:

ORIGINAL: MartinP


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine


this subject came up on during a discussion amongst slaves. i'm amazed what people will confess in shared company. many noted that "master" had developed interests in certain things or neglected to state them before they became involved. as you might imagine the truth came out and in some instances there were admissions that the discoveries weren't that at all. yet and still they defended them for whatever reasons i can't wrap my brain around.

i was pretty dumbfounded because these weren't garden variety kinks but spoke of dramatic shifts in the dynamic. for most it was a very painful experience and their struggles left an indelible mark in my head. i cannot say i'd be able to do the same. but i respect they felt they did what was right for them.

porcelaine



porcelaine,

I must say that this is difficult to stomach. Please excuse me to say this quite bluntly, but it is difficult to believe.

Do I interpret you correctly with this example?
the master described the relation limited to some play, a bit of nudity and the occasional spanking.
After some months the slave is surprised to live in complete nudity, eat on the floor from a bowl and ito be regurarly caned.
Nothing of the new treatment has ever been mentionned as an option, or just in a blanket statement.

Shifting the goal or hiding his own true objectives in a relationship based on trust is dishonest. If such tricks are used against a person who basically put herself at your mercy, it not just dishonest, it is disgusting [:'(].

I really hope that I did not correctly understand you.

I remember

Martin


i simply said they were led to believe one thing and discovered something else after a period of involvement. yet and still they elected to accept the changes even though it caused them immense emotional discomfort to do so. they chose to stay and work through the situation. which from my viewpoint was deceptive. but everyone has their own level of tolerance.

i believe it is possible to develop new interests. the ramifications of these situations was not pretty to hear. but each were committed to their slavery and the one they yielded to. i can't say i would do the same. i have this weird thing about knowingly causing harm to myself. for me it is a huge issue between his will and what is best for the other person. perhaps they were capable of stomaching those situations. it is more probable that i would have walked. while i would love my master beyond no compare. i love myself a lot more.

porcelaine



Tantriqu -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 4:03:13 PM)

Profile red flags:
When they say they're 'easy-going, not into drama or headgames' means:
1. they'll never be on time, employed, monogamous and/or drug/alcohol-free, and therefore:
2. they cause drama
3. they're into headgames



zenny -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 4:07:06 PM)

Ever think they've run into too many woman who cause drama and play head games such that they feel the need to point out it is a deal breaker?



DemonKia -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 5:38:15 PM)

Heh. That's a good one for my list: virtually any mention of the pop-cultural concepts 'drama', 'baggage', or 'game-playing' is aversively received by me. Life is full of crud, shit happens, & a certain amount of 'drama', 'baggage', 'game-playing', et al. is inevitable . .. . . . I'm much more interested in what people do with life's lemons than in the relative portions of lemons allotted . . . . .



Malkinius -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 5:50:09 PM)

{Fast Reply}

Greetings all....

True submission is something that does develop over time and taking someone there does involve changes in how things are done along the way. No, the person submitting will not know everything that will happen ahead of time although they should have a rough outline and be in agreement on the end result. The main reason no one can give a clear step by step roadmap of what will happen is that everyone is different and there will be things that come up as opportunities that if taken will enhance the submission and those will be things neither party thought of before. A good trainer will jump on them and change instantly to take advantage of them. Someone who just follows a script may not even see them happening.

The other side is the people who deliberately want something but do not tell the person they are working with what it is and it is something big. Now...if I don't tell someone I am working with that I eventually want them to learn how to do a formal afternoon English tea service that is one thing. If it is that I plan to put what I am doing with them on a pay-per-view BDSM web site, that is something else entirely different. The latter could well be a significant problem for someone and a deal breaker. (Note: I have done neither in all the training of slaves that I have done.)

It is very often the case that a Dom or Master will deliberately aim for someone's "hard limits". I know a man who considers those lists as a to-do list. With the right slave it works great. With most, there are major problems. Exploring the edges of problem areas is a good idea. Sometimes working through or around them so they are no longer a problem is something the sub/slave wants to do. Once again, no ethical problems. Outright lying about your long term intentions and major things you intend to do with someone is totally different. Deep submission is based on trust. Without trust it doesn't happen at the deepest levels. Note that I say trust, not love. You can love someone and not trust them. You can trust someone and not love them.

Be well....

Malkinius



MartinP -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 6:47:58 PM)

Porcelaine,

would you please excuse me while I go to the bathroom and empty my stomach?

I am just in the process of decollaring my love and I hate the idea of her falling in the hands of such a honorless man. Our relationship fell apart because of professional reasons -- she finally found the job of her life in Paris, and I really cannot leave Canada. Thank god I have relatives in that town who will take good care of her. Since my grand-mother think highly of her (my mother too), I know my family will help and protect her in any possible way. But she has to ask for it!

What you tell me is that some honorless men "masters" hide their plans and slowy but surely move an unwitting woman into an abject situation. I thought that all this has to be safe, sane and consensual, Emphasis on consensual.

Of course, we moved gradually, but any move of our bondaries had to be agreed, by both parties. A "non" meant just that, and I will be damned if I go past that, especially with specious arguments.

You know Pocelaine, It does not upset that so some called dominants are cheats and liars, there are always some bad apples etc.
What really bothers me is that the slaves did not walk away and even construct excuses for the unexcusable.

This is simply not acceptable. Porcelaine, thank you for your insight, I am in your debt

I remember

Martin








MartinP -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 6:53:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But I agree with Ninon L'Enclos that a woman should be accustomed by degrees into submission.................if that means I agree with porcelaine........

I can live with that.

Ron

shouldn't we seek white flags?



Should I understand it with your are feeling honest with being "economical with the truth" with your subs?

I remember,

Martin



stillholdson -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 6:58:07 PM)

I have my own silly list...

like some one wishes to be with you but they dont want you on their friends list or they have you on there on hidden so 'other's ' won't see that they are invloved  with you kind of thing.

this speaks eons to the.' oh gee then why do you say you claim me'',  thinking.
i wont be a dirty lil secret or a slave that pops out of the woodwork.

then there is doing a google search and finding out there is DV in there family.this will make me wonder where did it start from.



KneelforAnne -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 7:05:18 PM)

~FR~

Does he/she do what they say they will?
How do they act when angry/annoyed?
How do they deal with things they don't like?
Are they honest?
Do they talk about their past?
How do they talk about ex-lovers?
Can you meet their family?
Can you go to their home?

These are some of the questions I try and ask myself.



DomImus -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 7:07:52 PM)


1. If she still has or once had a penis. Major red flag.
2. Too far to the left from a political standpoint.

Just a few off the top of my head. A lie won't disqualify anyone just for having lied. It depends on what the lie was about and what the motivation for it was. I am not self righteous when it come to lies. We all tell them at one time or another sooner or later. Any person who tells you they don't tell lies and have never told a lie is the one person you should never, ever trust. You don't want someone in your life who lies about everything nor do you want someone in your life who lies about important issues but this "truth serum" policy that some people bandy about is the most unrealistic pile of manure in the history of relationships.



impishlilhellcat -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 7:53:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

while this wasn't an issue before, i question a person's ability and willingness to relocate. employment transfers not withstanding, most people aren't quitting jobs in this economy. which leaves me wondering where you're moving and who's footing the bills.

porcelaine




OOO very good one!



DemonKia -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 8:16:25 PM)

What does this mean? DV? Please? Thank you . . . .. .

quote:

ORIGINAL: stillholdson

then there is doing a google search and finding out there is DV in there family.this will make me wonder where did it start from.




stillholdson -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 8:23:15 PM)

DV= domestic violence.
to me this speaks of someone that is out of control with their anger and stress and I don't want them near me with any kind of pain causing implement.
Dv is usually a family type inherited dysfunction let alone the ramifications of mental abuse that could occur in a situation such as that.



DemonKia -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 8:48:44 PM)

Ah. I get it. Thank you . . . . .



porcelaine -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 9:49:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: impishlilhellcat


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

while this wasn't an issue before, i question a person's ability and willingness to relocate. employment transfers not withstanding, most people aren't quitting jobs in this economy. which leaves me wondering where you're moving and who's footing the bills.

porcelaine




OOO very good one!


i had an odd conversation with someone that felt my relocation wouldn't be an issue. he was presently living in the midwest. i candidly asked him how he'd afford to leave behind a job and relocate to nyc. he said he figured if we hit it off we'd simply live together instead. needless to say that was our last conversation. [;)]

porcelaine



happylittlepet -> RE: Red flags (9/12/2009 9:54:00 PM)

FR (I read the whole thread though, and this is not in response to Porcelaine)

I am sure something about me is a red flag to someone else.

And I am fine with that.


Edit: I am seriously bothered by the things I read here, and on the other side, about how both women and men allow themselves to be taken advantage of by others. As if the BDSM label someone puts on him/herself removes all caution in the potential partner. Seriously people, I am with Martin on this one, it makes me sick and sad. 



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