Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny

Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (Full Version)

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Sanity -> Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 7:57:57 AM)
Who wonders why Newsweek feels that this is a case that needs to be made? quote: The Case for Killing Granny Rethinking end-of-life care. The idea that we might ration health care to seniors (or anyone else) is political anathema. Politicians do not dare breathe the R word, lest they be accused—however wrongly—of trying to pull the plug on Grandma. But the need to spend less money on the elderly at the end of life is the elephant in the room in the health-reform debate. Everyone sees it but no one wants to talk about it. At a more basic level, Americans are afraid not just of dying, but of talking and thinking about death. Until Americans learn to contemplate death as more than a scientific challenge to be overcome, our health-care system will remain unfixable. Full article at http://www.newsweek.com/id/215291?GT1=43002

DomKen -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 8:18:26 AM)
Because hopeless pointless medical care for the terminal is exceedingly expensive and in many cases accomplishes nothing?

mnottertail -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 8:22:39 AM)
Look, I'm this way about it, if they want to jump off the cliff into the great beyond, I am for it, and have no compunction about helping them do it. I believe that alot of money and time and goes against many folkes desires to keep them going. Where they want to fight out a losing cause, I think they have to just like buying a house, put their own ass on the line, all the way down the line. No taking it with you or giving it to the kids, you pay for your play.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 8:32:16 AM)
Well as someone who takes care of Granny and Papa, in the same home, I have to say that if more families stepped up and took care of their own, then the costs would be less. Many just stick em away in a nursing home somewhere, and then go to see them once a month so that they do not feel so guilty about putting Granny away in a place that often does not treat them like human beings, much less treat them as loved ones. A society that will not allow someone that is terminally ill, to end their own life, but will force them to live in some of the dehumanizing conditions of some nursing homes, is one fucked up society. There is a lot of money to be made to keep the dying in a state of dying, rather than dead. Follow the money.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 9:12:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Well as someone who takes care of Granny and Papa, in the same home, I have to say that if more families stepped up and took care of their own, then the costs would be less. Many just stick em away in a nursing home somewhere, and then go to see them once a month so that they do not feel so guilty about putting Granny away in a place that often does not treat them like human beings, much less treat them as loved ones. A society that will not allow someone that is terminally ill, to end their own life, but will force them to live in some of the dehumanizing conditions of some nursing homes, is one fucked up society. There is a lot of money to be made to keep the dying in a state of dying, rather than dead. Follow the money. I have to agree on this one Orion. Having just watched the death process of the mother of a friend of mine, a woman who ended her life suffering from both Althzheimers disease and pancreatic cancer, I can tell you that our current rules and practices just aren't working. We show more compassion and understanding to a cocker spaniel than we do to our fellow human beings in this matter.

Rule -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 9:47:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Well as someone who takes care of Granny and Papa, in the same home, I have to say that if more families stepped up and took care of their own, then the costs would be less. Many just stick em away in a nursing home somewhere, and then go to see them once a month so that they do not feel so guilty about putting Granny away in a place that often does not treat them like human beings, much less treat them as loved ones. A society that will not allow someone that is terminally ill, to end their own life, but will force them to live in some of the dehumanizing conditions of some nursing homes, is one fucked up society. There is a lot of money to be made to keep the dying in a state of dying, rather than dead. Follow the money. [sm=goodpost.gif][sm=agree.gif][sm=yourock.gif][sm=champ.gif] Edited to add: This was my 4000th post.

Arpig -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 10:17:13 AM)
quote: Who wonders why Newsweek feels that this is a case that needs to be made? Perhaps because it is important, factual, and timely. Nah, that can't be it....must be an attempt to fool the public into accepting those damned death panels we've heard so much about.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 10:20:49 AM)
in 1978, Mom checked Grand-Dad out of the hospital in Baltimore and put him on a plane to Santa Barbara, his lung cancer had spread to his liver and he didn't have much time left. Mom and Dad were both retired, stay-at-home parents at that time. she moved this slave out of the bedroom they let this slave use and set it up for him...this slave slept on the couch...she was 12. for the first few weeks he could get out of bed and come to the table with the help of a wheelchair. we played Gin Rummy and Hearts and listened to him tell funny stories and jokes. then he slipped into a coma, and it seemed like a week of mom taking the turkey baster into the room to help remove some of the fluid that was gurgling up in his throat...and other "nurse" duties. she didn't have to help him take his life...just make him as comfortable as possible while he died. she had been a nurse for many years, and knew how to care for someone in his condition. one night this slave awoke on the couch to a strange man coming in the house with a stretcher---he headed back to the bedroom and came back out with Grand-Dad, covered with a sheet. Mom & Dad thanked the man for coming and then Mom headed back to the room and changed the sheets on the bed, directing this slave to get off the couch and get into the bed that was still slightly warm from Grand-Dad. Lots of folks don't *want* to or don't have the resources to go through ANY of the above experiences with their loved ones. go figure.

Rule -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 10:41:34 AM)
Indeed, you are very much right, beth. I think that it ought to be a case by case evaluation. If the person is either loved by relatives, if the person is still of some use to either society or someone else, if the cost of (maintenance) treatment is not exorbitant, if the person is without pain, I say: Keep them alive. Otherwise, if there is no love, nor usefulness, and if the cost is exorbitant, and if the person is in excessive, not treatable pain, then I say kill them. Recompense the living relatives financially.

Sanity -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 11:00:24 AM)
The article is directly pushing for death panels, its not beating around the bush like the president. Look at the title of the article, that really says it all. Sure, Newsweek also hints that mercy killings are a part of the idea, but the overall message is that killing off grandma is a great for the government to save money. quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Who wonders why Newsweek feels that this is a case that needs to be made? Perhaps because it is important, factual, and timely. Nah, that can't be it....must be an attempt to fool the public into accepting those damned death panels we've heard so much about.

Arpig -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 11:32:24 AM)
I guess we read different articles then. The one I read was about a shitload more than pulling the plug on granny. And it doesn't really matter, the topic of end-of-life care is one that has to be addressed, its where the majority of healthcare money goes, so thats where any meaningful savings have to come from. There comes a time when the plug must be pulled. I have watched a girlfriend's father and my father-in-law die (hmmmm,maybe women contemplating dating me should think twice if their father is still alive eh?[;)]). In both cases the family had to decide when to pull the plug. In the first case there was considerable argument, and it was very hard for the wife (who has to make the ultimate decision) to decide with all the pressure she was under from both sides. In the 2nd case the family kept their mouths shut unless asked by the wife, and they simply supported her decision. I gather from much of what I have read that the 2nd situation is in fact rather rare. And the first scenario would have been made much easier for all involved if there was in fact some sort of living will in place. In today's world where the medicos can keep a body technically alive for years and years when all semblance of a life has ceased it is increasingly important that such instruments be in place for one and all. It is also increasingly important that such discussions as those in the article take place as well. We have to ask ourselves: "When is enough, enough?" When it comes time for my ex mother-in-law to go,the decision will be mine and one of her sons' to make (assuming she hasn't changed her will). We both know her wishes, but the reason she put me down as well as her son was because I would be less susceptible to guilt trips than would a family member (also the fact that I stand to inherit absolutely nothing from her). Arrangements like this are the sort of thing that needs to be more than just common, it should be pretty much universal.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 11:37:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The article is directly pushing for death panels, its not beating around the bush like the president. Look at the title of the article, that really says it all. Sure, Newsweek also hints that mercy killings are a part of the idea, but the overall message is that killing off grandma is a great for the government to save money. If I'd realized that Newsweek magazine is now in charge of health care policy for the Obama Administration, I would have taken this issue a lot more seriously a lot sooner. Thank you for letting us all know that the editor of Newsweek is the new Health Care Czar.

DomKen -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 12:01:25 PM)
I've watched two close friends die of cancer. A friend in college had metastized testicular cancer. He went through multiple rounds of chemo and radiation but it only delayed the inevitable. He was ready to for his suffering to be over but his parents weren't and put enormous pressure on him to keep trying. He died, in agony, during a round of an alpha phase chemo trial. He spent the last month or more of his life in an ICU receiving experimental medications on a resirator with no ability to speak and too weak to hold a pencil. No one should die incommunicado from loved ones 5 feet away. I shudder to imagine what that last month cost. My best friend's wife died of metastized salivary gland cancer. She had gone through a 'successful' round of surgery and radiation and been disease free for several years but some little bit of it had survived and when it was detected the second time it was advanced enough that the prognosis was grim. She went through chemo, radiation and surgery until it was clearly beyond hope. She spent the last several months of her life on drugs to control the symptoms and pain at home enjoying her friends and family. Finally she declined to the point where she went into a hospice and in a couple of days she passed away quietly and as peacefully as was possible. IMO the second case is far preferable to most people but also lower cost to society as a whole.

Louve00 -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 12:27:36 PM)
The thought that keeps coming back to me though is....if granny makes a living will (which is proposed by the gov't in this health plan to be covered, and also named "the death panel".....if granny made that living will, wouldn't it really be all up to her whether time and money is spent on saving her life? (not directed at any one in particular.....just wondering out loud, I guess)

Arpig -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 12:52:37 PM)
Yup Louve, that's exactly the point. The expected cost savings are based on the idea that the majority of people would opt for a more dignified and less drawn out end-of-life scenario. I know for one I would....if I can't enjoy it anymore, what's the point?

Louve00 -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 12:56:13 PM)
Right. I can get that 100%. I guess my next question is....if its granny's decision, how does that automatically change it to the gov't decision?

mnottertail -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 12:59:31 PM)
Well, because it is a fundamentally government decision right now, Kevorkian pathology is illegal in this country....and for all their blustering about government out of their lives, conservatives want patriot acts, right to life, creationism and all sorts of control by government. They want to choose, not you. Ron

Louve00 -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 1:14:46 PM)
I just have to sigh over this. It's being taken so far out of concept here, IMO. That people can construe this as a Kevorkian thing is just not plain understanding the issue. A living will isn't really that. A living will is legally laying out a decision when you come to the end of your life. Like, "I (not me lol) know I have cancer, I can't tolerate the therapy, so if I wind up in your ER with congestive failure from the therapy, then don't bother....let me go. That is quite different than saying...."I have cancer, I can't tolerate the therapy, either euthanize me or kill me. That is two different concepts. I think maybe thats why they've come up with the word death panel?? They just don't understand it?

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 1:24:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 I think maybe thats why they've come up with the word death panel?? They just don't understand it? No, the people who started using the term "death panel" understand it perfectly. The reason they seized on that term was because they knew that most of their supporters were too stupid to understand that issue, and they figured this would be the best way to scare the hell out of them.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Newsweek: The Case for Killing Granny (9/16/2009 2:47:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Who wonders why Newsweek feels that this is a case that needs to be made? Perhaps because it is important, factual, and timely. Nah, that can't be it....must be an attempt to fool the public into accepting those damned death panels we've heard so much about. What do you think the purpose of the end of life counseling is?

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