Can it really be simple?

Can it really be simple? (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 8:38:25 AM)
One of my primary functions in my business is problem solving. Looking at some of the health care issues can it really be as simple as: 1) Clean up the fraud and waste in Medicare. For every dollar spent on fraud prevention, it saves $13, 2) Amend the current Medicare laws to include everyone that has a Social Security number, exceptions being for new borns. 3) Allow insurance to offer supplemental packages to those that can afford it. This would cover Medicare deductables, co-pays, percentages not covered, etc. 4) Amend laws that a hospital must be run under the Mayo Clinic model for cost and medical efficiency, or they do not qualify to treat Medicare patients. 5) Allow those that wish to, to purchase their own insurance. So where are the holes?

dcnovice -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 8:52:56 AM)
Former Senator George McGovern had an interesting essay in the Washington Post the the day, arguing for extending medicare to all.

Rule -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 9:10:41 AM)
6. Increase taxes by five per cent for all people and their parents with chirurgical mutilation of the body (excepting perhaps teeth); this includes nose jobs, boob jobs, tonsil removement and genital mutilation. 7. Some costs are birthing related. Allow only one quarter of all fertile women to have one successful pregnancy. Sterilize the lot of the others. Prohibit all fertility increasement treatments. 8. Remove most sugar from the diet. Obesity, diabetes II and tooth decay are all consequences of a too rich diet. 9. Kiss only your husband or wife. 10. Fire any physician who proscribes more than two medications to be used simultaneously. 11. Some people are truly beyond hope: kill them quickly.

Arpig -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 9:51:05 AM)
Yup, it could be that simple....but it won't.

shannie -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 10:51:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf One of my primary functions in my business is problem solving. Looking at some of the health care issues can it really be as simple as: 1) Clean up the fraud and waste in Medicare. For every dollar spent on fraud prevention, it saves $13, 2) Amend the current Medicare laws to include everyone that has a Social Security number, exceptions being for new borns. 3) Allow insurance to offer supplemental packages to those that can afford it. This would cover Medicare deductables, co-pays, percentages not covered, etc. 4) Amend laws that a hospital must be run under the Mayo Clinic model for cost and medical efficiency, or they do not qualify to treat Medicare patients. 5) Allow those that wish to, to purchase their own insurance. So where are the holes? The major "hole" is that your plan wouldn't enable the transfer of capital (billions and billions) to the corporate insurance companies (which, by all appearances, is the real agenda on Capitol Hill). Otherwise, it makes a lot of sense.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 10:59:01 AM)
So the real problem is not that there are not practical solutions to the problems, the problem is politicians.Excellent point Shannie. To all: The problem is the politicians. I want every Democrat and Republican to remember this, and remember it well. As I have stated before, and people want to say "well it has been going on since the founding fathers", the partisan bullshit is the problem. Each and every one of you partisans, that want to bicker over the stupid distractions, help perpetuate this problem. Each of us that just rant, without proper follow up via email, or what have you, is part of the problem. Every time we vote in an incumbent, we are part of the problem. The damn problems are not Health Care, Economy, etc. Those are symptoms of the real problem. quote: ORIGINAL: shannie The major "hole" is that your plan wouldn't enable the transfer of capital (billions and billions) to the corporate insurance companies (which, by all appearances, is the real agenda on Capitol Hill). Otherwise, it makes a lot of sense.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 11:00:38 AM)
Thanks for that. I may have actually seen a piece of that in something, that caused me to think of the idea; or it could be that the idea is so simple that many people have thought of it. quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Former Senator George McGovern had an interesting essay in the Washington Post the the day, arguing for extending medicare to all.

dcnovice -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 11:04:38 AM)
quote: So the real problem is not that there are not practical solutions to the problems, the problem is politicians. Years ago, a friend of mine was the researcher for a book called The Best Congress Money Can Buy. The author, Philip Stern, argued that legislators were all too often beholden to campaign contributors rather than constituents. So they're often not putting the public's interest first. I'm not sure how to solve this, alas.

Arpig -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 11:09:01 AM)
quote: Years ago, a friend of mine was the researcher for a book called The Best Congress Money Can Buy. The author, Philip Stern, argued that legislators were all too often beholden to campaign contributors rather than constituents. So they're often not putting the public's interest first. I'm not sure how to solve this, alas. Again the solution is simple. Make it illegal for anybody but a private citizen to make a campaign contribution, and put a capon how much and how many times an individual can contribute. Most of these "insoluble" problems have very simple solutions...it just takes somebody with the political vision and will to carry them out.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 2:10:10 PM)
They have tried campaign reform many times, and of course the politicians will not vote it in. One of the other things I find predictable is that not very many partisans have commented on this topic. I suppose there is not much to actually argue about or call each other names over. This kind of shows that many of the voters of America are allowing us to get exactly the government we deserve.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 2:45:24 PM)
You are missing the key point. Your proposal expands the role of government in health care. That has NEVER led to more efficiency and less fraud.

shannie -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 3:50:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy You are missing the key point. Your proposal expands the role of government in health care. That has NEVER led to more efficiency and less fraud. That might have been true before the era of the mammoth corporation, but it's crystal clear now that these kinds of corporations beat out even the government when it comes to waste, inefficiency, and fraud. And absent a public option -- that's exactly to whom they intend to give/transfer $800 billion dollars.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 5:06:21 PM)
See points 1 and 4. Also, the actual problem has to be addressed as well. Actually there have been a couple of successful Federal programs, but very few and some of them have become entities unto themselves. The beginnings of the Postal service and the Interstate highway system are two. It would be great if you had some specific comment about the points presented, rather than a general one. Hell I could say that most things that humans are involved in are not run effeciently and with less fraud, and the statement would be equally true and helpful as yours. quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy You are missing the key point. Your proposal expands the role of government in health care. That has NEVER led to more efficiency and less fraud.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 5:07:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shannie That might have been true before the era of the mammoth corporation, but it's crystal clear now that these kinds of corporations beat out even the government when it comes to waste, inefficiency, and fraud. Not even close.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 5:11:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf See points 1 and 4. Also, the actual problem has to be addressed as well. Actually there have been a couple of successful Federal programs, but very few and some of them have become entities unto themselves. The beginnings of the Postal service and the Interstate highway system are two. It would be great if you had some specific comment about the points presented, rather than a general one. Hell I could say that most things that humans are involved in are not run effeciently and with less fraud, and the statement would be equally true and helpful as yours. quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy You are missing the key point. Your proposal expands the role of government in health care. That has NEVER led to more efficiency and less fraud. You dont address a problem by putting an organization in charge that has proven its ineptitude at the very thing your trying to solve. The Postal Service succeeded because its a monopoly, not because of any great demonstration of efficiency, It has needed periodic infusions of capital to keep it afloat. The Interstate Highway system isnt a "business" per se, and what efficiencies it has achieved were mainly from piggybacking off the experience of the autobahn.

shannie -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 5:46:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The Postal Service succeeded because its a monopoly, not because of any great demonstration of efficiency. Okay, that's sacrilege.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 6:01:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy You dont address a problem by putting an organization in charge that has proven its ineptitude at the very thing your trying to solve. You didn't seem to address points 1 and 4, which cover your remark. quote: The Postal Service succeeded because its a monopoly, not because of any great demonstration of efficiency, It has needed periodic infusions of capital to keep it afloat. The Interstate Highway system isnt a "business" per se, and what efficiencies it has achieved were mainly from piggybacking off the experience of the autobahn. The infusions of money were necessary to keep it going, prior to increases. Those infusions were loans though. Can you tell me who else can do what the USPS does for the rates they charge? They are also their own institution now. Regardless, I suppose I derailed my own topic by trying to show obvious things that have been done correctly. Now as I stated, do you have specific issues to the specific points, or is yours just a general "I don't like it because the government would be providing it." Did you notice points 3 and 5? Any specific comments about those? Anyone that does not want to use the government provided health care could get their own, as well as supplemental insurance to cover things that Medicare would not cover. All of this hinges on number 1 though, otherwise it is just another leaking boat.

TheHeretic -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 6:05:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf not very many partisans have commented on this topic. I wouldn't presume to speak on behalf of my esteemed colleagues on the left, but us Republican sorts do go to work, y'know... How about the hole is the very same one President Obama pointed out in his speech, as if admitting it was there somehow magically made it go away? I don't trust the government to get it right. I expect we will get, as has been said for years, the efficiency of the Post Office with the compassion of the IRS.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 6:18:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Anyone that does not want to use the government provided health care could get their own, The fallacy of this has been pointed out many times. As soon as their is an option where the government can rig the rates, private plans will be crowded out. If the Mayo Clinic model were a cure all, there would be plenty more of them.

dcnovice -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/16/2009 6:37:38 PM)
quote: I expect we will get, as has been said for years, the efficiency of the Post Office with the compassion of the IRS. That's a good line. [:)] Does it, though, accord with how folks have experienced Medicare over the past few decades? It seemed this summer that folks were doggedly, even ferociously, protective of it.

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