It seems I've heard this story before (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 1:50:31 AM)

Maybe around a campfire...

SPOKANE, Wash. – A criminally insane killer from eastern Washington is on the run after escaping during a field trip to the county fair that his mental hospital organized.


This doesn't seem to need much comment...



slaveluci -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 5:33:24 AM)

Yeah and he has a hook for a hand[8D]

Seriously, I read about this on "The Dreamin' Demon" site and thought "WTF?" What's the point of locking people like that "safely" away from society if you're just going to turn around and take them out for a (basically unguarded) Saturday jaunt to the fair? Reading the details of his crime indicates to me he's pretty well capable of planning murder and attempting to cover his tracks. If he's not going to be in a genuine correctional facility, he at least should be kept locked in wherever he is. Let's just hope he doesn't hurt anyone else and the policy of taking killers out for a picnic gets changed immediately.

This is why some people (nope, still not me) are in favor of capital punishment because saying someone is locked up doesn't always mean they stay that way and it's a scary prospect............luci




Irishknight -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 7:03:39 AM)

If he should kill again before being recaptured, it will definately make a case for those in favor of the death penalty. "He would not have escaped to kill after being put down." And, I will agree with those that say it.

I think criminal charges should be brought against those who let him escape if he does kill anyone. The negligence associated with taking an insane murderer on a fucking picnic is monumental. If these people cause a death by doing so, they need to be charged. Maybe then they'll start using their damned heads and keeping these people locked away for the protection of others.



Arpig -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 7:41:52 AM)

Actually the death penalty wouldn't have made the slightest difference regardless of the final outcome of this sad episode...he was acquitted by reason of insanity. The death penalty wouldn't have been used on him, and he still would have been taken to the fair and he still would have escaped.



DomImus -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 7:53:23 AM)

Where did he get the $50 bucks from? 



TheHeretic -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 9:00:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Actually the death penalty wouldn't have made the slightest difference regardless of the final outcome of this sad episode...he was acquitted by reason of insanity. The death penalty wouldn't have been used on him, and he still would have been taken to the fair and he still would have escaped.



Huh???  Are you suggesting there is no middle ground between execution, and criminally negligent custodial care? 



SpinnerofTales -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 9:10:43 AM)

quote:

Huh??? Are you suggesting there is no middle ground between execution, and criminally negligent custodial care? ORIGINAL: TheHeretic




I'll field this one. No, he is not suggesting there is no middle ground between execution and criminally negligent custodial care. He is pointing out that even if there was capital punishment available as an option in every state of the union, and for every crime down to double parking, it would have made no difference in this particular case. This is a case about custodial care for the criminally insane. It is not a case about capital punishment.

I hope that helps clear up your confusion.



Arpig -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 9:19:20 AM)

yeah! What he said (Thanks Spinner)[:)]



Sanity -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 9:19:58 AM)


What I understood was him to be saying was that the capital punishment issue is moot in this case because if a person who commits murder is found innocent by reason of insanity then the death penalty would never be applied, no matter what.

And he is correct.

Crazed killer still goes to the fair, still walks away from his handlers, still terrorizes TheHeretic and company in the campground of his choosing.






TheHeretic -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 9:27:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

I'll field this one.




Quite the assumption you make, Spinner.  Did you read what Arpig wrote, before stepping up to the plate? (hmmm.. I seem to be mixing our baseball metaphor.  Oh well.)  What I responded to was his apparent suggestion that the only way to handle the criminally insane is with day trips to the county fair.

If his suggestion is that we cannot properly secure dangerous people who happen to meet a certain criteria of insanity (or have enough money to convince a jury that they meet it), then perhaps we need to do away with that as a defense.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 10:54:23 AM)

quote:

Quite the assumption you make, Spinner. Did you read what Arpig wrote, before stepping up to the plate? (hmmm.. I seem to be mixing our baseball metaphor. Oh well.) What I responded to was his apparent suggestion that the only way to handle the criminally insane is with day trips to the county fair.
ORIGINAL: TheHeretic




No, what he was saying (and again forgive me Ar for speaking for you) is that the issue of how to confine and control the criminally insane has nothing to do with the issue of capital punishment. There simply is no way in which the presence or absence of capital punishment would have affected the custodial decisions of the people entrusted with the person's care. Therefore, while discussing this particular case, any discussion of capital punishment is absolutely irrelevant. Ar's post made no mention of what could or should be done in relation to the case in point and those like it.



tazzygirl -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 11:03:05 AM)

~FR

criminally insane

fair

outting

why are these words not adding up to me?

quote:

"They believe he was an extreme escape risk and the administration should never have allowed him on the field trip," a statement from the Washington Federation of State Employees said. "The workers have unsuccessfully fought to stop the outings for murderers, rapists and pedophiles committed to the hospital as criminally insane."


quote:

Paul was living in a halfway house in Spokane last year, but ended up back at the hospital in a very agitated state, Tom Paul said. Hospital officials said Paul hadn't exhibited violent behavior in years. They argued in the past that he should be released, but his petition for release was rejected in 2003.

The sheriff's office said Friday that Paul's medication should keep him stable for 14 days.


Deregulation at its finest!



TheHeretic -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 11:47:02 AM)

I didn't bring up capital punishment, Spinner, though murdering an 80 year old woman and burying her in the garden with petrochemicals added to disguise the smell does seem like an activity that would qualify for it.

If that is where we are going though, and our choices are either to execute such a person, or to entrust him to the custody of people who are demonstrably incompetent to properly confine him, then perhaps we do need to reconsider the whole notion of the insanity defense.





SpinnerofTales -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 12:52:19 PM)

quote:

If that is where we are going though, and our choices are either to execute such a person, or to entrust him to the custody of people who are demonstrably incompetent to properly confine him, then perhaps we do need to reconsider the whole notion of the insanity defense.

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



This might be a silly question, but wouldn't a better idea be to reconsideration of the procedures for confining and treating the criminally insane?



TheHeretic -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 1:29:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

If that is where we are going though, and our choices are either to execute such a person, or to entrust him to the custody of people who are demonstrably incompetent to properly confine him, then perhaps we do need to reconsider the whole notion of the insanity defense.

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



This might be a silly question, but wouldn't a better idea be to reconsideration of the procedures for confining and treating the criminally insane?




That is pretty much what I was thinking when I posted the article, Spinner.  Then it was presented as a choice between day trips to the county fair and execution. 



SpinnerofTales -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 1:44:32 PM)

quote:

That is pretty much what I was thinking when I posted the article, Spinner. Then it was presented as a choice between day trips to the county fair and execution.
ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



That being the case, I have no disagreement with you. I do not think, even as a confirmed civil libertarian, I would be overly unhappy if violently insane criminals did not get a chance to play "dunk the dummy" or ride the tilt-a-whirl.




Arpig -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 3:05:22 PM)

quote:

What I responded to was his apparent suggestion that the only way to handle the criminally insane is with day trips to the county fair.
Well Spinner and Sanity were correct in reading what I meant, and you couldn't have been more wrong. I didn't mention how to deal with the criminally insane in my post at all, only the fact that the death penalty is irrelevant in this particular case. How on earth you read what you did into what I wrote is simply beyond me.



Arpig -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 3:32:09 PM)

Now on to the main question...what to do with the criminally insane. It depends really on just what form their insanity takes, and what crime they committed while not in control of their faculties. As an aside first regarding the case in question, it seems to me that the guy should not have been found not guilty by reason of insanity...dousing the body in gasoline to throw off search dogs seems to me to be a sign that he was indeed thinking straight (well somewhat twistedly...but you know what I mean). As a general rule those found not guilty by reason of insanity should be put into a secure mental facility until such time as they are cured. that is the point of the verdict. I am not qualified to say how one determines if somebody is cured or not, but there are professionals who are...let them make the determination, perhaps something akin to a parole board manned by a panel of psychiatrists and psychologists who can review the data and interview the person.
Should they be able to participate in day outings, etc.? Well that depends on the individual and the progress of their treatment.  The assumption of the verdict is that if the person were cured of their mental defect then they would be perfectly safe to release, and that is the assumption one has to work under. To say a person found criminally insane should be treated any differently due to the nature of the crime is to ignore the meaning of the verdict.

I don't like what happened in this case any more than anybody else, but the issue is not in the process, but rather in the judgement of those who decided this guy represented no risk...they were wrong. Their decision should be reviewed by a panel of experts, and if found wanting they should be disciplined, especially if the guy commits any other crimes while out. That being said, however, these people cannot just be held indefinitely, there must be some sort of periodic review of their condition,otherwise being found "not criminally responsible" would simply be a sentence of life without parole....which it is not meant to be.



TheHeretic -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 4:01:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
The death penalty wouldn't have been used on him, and he still would have been taken to the fair and he still would have escaped.



Then what's wrong with saying, "the death penalty wouldn't have been used and he could have spent the rest of life securely confined, and/or drugged into catatonia?"

He had to go to the fair?



MarsBonfire -> RE: It seems I've heard this story before (9/19/2009 6:30:00 PM)

More to the point... have any goalie masks and machetes gone missing?



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