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The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . PBS .... - 9/20/2009 9:44:32 AM

Brain

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The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . PBS . Sam Tanenhaus . WATCH VIDEO

Tanenhaus edits two of the NEW YORK TIMES most influential Sunday sections — the NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW and the WEEK IN REVIEW. He's also the critically acclaimed biographer of two conservative icons: Whittaker Chambers and William F. Buckley, Jr.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09182009/profile2.html

Conservatives have many mouths but don’t have many ears. The strength of the irrational right is something we have to contend with because they can bring everything down.

Apparently, there are two strains of conservatism. The first thinks America has been taken away from them and he calls it a strong strain of modern conservatism. The second, which he considers true conservatism is based on the classic conservative writer Edmund Burke and it is this intellectual conservative movement that Tanenhaus sees dying out in American public life.

Post #: 1

RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/20/2009 10:35:05 AM

DomKen

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Tanenhaus is only the latest in a long string of people who've said that. Barry Goldwater was the first prominent voice to say so. Tanenhaus will be just as completely ignored by the right as all those preceeding him have been.

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 2

RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/20/2009 3:07:58 PM

MarsBonfire

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Time will tell, I guess. But, judging by Bayners appearence on "Meet the Press" this morning, I'd say that the GOP leadership is still pretty clueless as to why mainstream America is ready to chuck them down the garbage disposal of politics. The longer they play this game of being "the party of no," the more people will see them as nothing more than radical obstructionists. Have they done anything to come up with an alternative to the Dem HCR proposals? No. Did they support the stim package when the US economy was teetering on the edge back in Feb.? No. Did they distance themselves from the Bush policies of torture, extraordinary rendition, and wiretapping? Hell no!

Now all we hear from, what has become their voice, is the paranoid raving os Glenn Beck, and the nasty, bigoted, drug-crazed Limbaugh. Every "event" they promote turns into a hate rally, which pushes into the camera with every snide, racist slogan they can come up with, and promised that they have all gathered unarmed (this time). They are a hairbreath away from becoming outright Klan rallies.

Oh, yeah, that's gonna get them the votes, you bet!

As I said elsewhere on this part of the forum, eventually the republicans will split off from the fringe element. (They have to, in order to survive.) When that happens, they'll also be splitting their voting power. On one side will be a relatively rational, traditional conservatisim, and on the other, the raving loonies...

At least the Dems won't need a third party to split the vote again. They will become utterly un-electable just because of their own lack of control over their own message.

So here we are, almost 10 months out from Bush scuttling out of office, and his "legacy" is becoming clear: He has so fractured the GOP, it's lying in the track like a racehorse with a broken leg. All that has to happen now if for them to put it out of its (and our) misery.

Long live the American Moderate Party! (Or whatever the hell they decide to call themselves, when they pick up the peices.)

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 3

RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 8:07:11 AM

servantforuse

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If the conservative movement in this country was indeed dead, the Presidents health care plan would already have been signed. It is far from dead and getting back to basics.

(in reply to MarsBonfire)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 8:14:37 AM

mnottertail

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It isn't the re-pubs holding it back, it is the infighting between the democratic liberals and democratic conservatives in congress.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/21/2009 8:17:05 AM >

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 8:20:30 AM

pahunkboy

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What an ivory tower bunch of bull.

Nothing has died.

(in reply to mnottertail)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 8:49:00 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

NEW YORK TIMES most influential Sunday sections — the NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW and the WEEK IN REVIEW.

You realize of course, that many New Yorkers point to these sections when people ask where are the NY Times Sunday cartoon pages.

Preaching to the choir who, based upon the inability to accomplish anything positive even with a filibuster proof majority, revert to their usual MO - someone else to blame. It is entertaining watching them squirm, finger point, and, especially in NY concerning the Governorship, self destruct.

But enjoy your reading and your head bobbing.

Added:
A source so "influential" that a book they didn't bother to review #1 for seven weeks on those same pages, and managed to sell a Million copies to a "dying" group. Or maybe it was purchased by those on the liberal side of the aisle doing a WC Fields reading the Bible impression; "Looking for loopholes".
Without ever having been reviewed by either the New York Times or the Washington Post, Mark Levin's Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto has now sold one million copies. It debuted at No. 1 on the New York Times best seller list and has remained in the Top Ten on that list for 24 straight weeks.

The image of the three monkeys, hearing, seeing, speaking, nothing positive or trending conservative is the image provided by the NY Times.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 9/21/2009 8:58:41 AM >

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 7

RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 10:48:53 AM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Without ever having been reviewed by either the New York Times or the Washington Post, Mark Levin's Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto has now sold one million copies. It debuted at No. 1 on the New York Times best seller list and has remained in the Top Ten on that list for 24 straight weeks.

Allow me to point out that Jonathan Livingston Seagull also sold over a million copies and is about as realistic and filled with practicle advice on how to run a country as Mr. Levin's work.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 8

RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 11:08:24 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Without ever having been reviewed by either the New York Times or the Washington Post, Mark Levin's Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto has now sold one million copies. It debuted at No. 1 on the New York Times best seller list and has remained in the Top Ten on that list for 24 straight weeks.

Allow me to point out that Jonathan Livingston Seagull also sold over a million copies and is about as realistic and filled with practicle advice on how to run a country as Mr. Levin's work.

A commentary representative of the head bobbing perspective, as well as the intrinsic value, of the referenced sections of the NY Times and those viewing it as 'authoritative'.

However at least the sales weren't attacked as being miscounted as the number of participants on 9/12. Because after all, whether referencing the Million plus who purchased the book, or the 150 'rednecks' (I think that's the number and label agreed upon by the left) who attended the 9/12 march; they are ALL unenlightened and misinformed. They don't read the NY Times!

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 11:26:03 AM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Allow me to point out that Jonathan Livingston Seagull also sold over a million copies and is about as realistic and filled with practicle advice on how to run a country as Mr. Levin's work.

quote:

A commentary representative of the head bobbing perspective, as well as the intrinsic value, of the referenced sections of the NY Times and those viewing it as 'authoritative'.

However at least the sales weren't attacked as being miscounted as the number of participants on 9/12. Because after all, whether referencing the Million plus who purchased the book, or the 150 'rednecks' (I think that's the number and label agreed upon by the left) who attended the 9/12 march; they are ALL unenlightened and misinformed. They don't read the NY Times!
Original Mercnbeth

C'mon, Merc. If the tables had been turned book wise, you would have come up with some equally scarcastic comment. I have seen your snarky side. In fact, I've applauded it. Humor and satire are both vaild tactics in a political debate. While I can't swear it, I would hope that you don't see me as a head bobber or someone who takes the times as the be all end all of news.

As for the Million man march: 750,000 to 800,000
World trade center: 3,400 give or take
Tea party protest: 60,000 to 70,000 (the 150 the left agreed on in one of their frequent meetings to lie about the right was the number who could both spell "tea party" and find Washington D.C. on the map) Sorry for anyone who got hit with that zinger unfairly but that "head bobber" comment called for response

What are your numbers on these matters?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 10

RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 11:50:33 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

C'mon, Merc. If the tables had been turned book wise, you would have come up with some equally scarcastic comment.

No, because similar to the representation that the pressure to get Governor Patterson out of office in NY there is no comparable reference point on the other side.

What equivalent 'liberal' slanted book selling a Million copies has ever not been reviewed by the NY Times? Or are you equating JLS as the liberal version of Levin's book. I haven't read Liberty & Tyranny, and it's been 40 years since I spent 20 minutes reading JLS cover to cover. Are they the same taken from different sides of the issue?

Too many people, on BOTH sides, are prepared to head bob and say; "yeah, you're right" when these incongruities are pointed out. People assume that the representation is correct. Well, it isn't. There is agenda behind the difference.

Representative of a group of head bobbers citing the NY Times as an authority also give "Bush did it too!" or "It was Bush's fault" as the cornerstone of rationalization of excusing the failure to date of any Obama Administration initiative; it is understandable. They refuse to read and appreciate the lack of substance and reality behind the mindset required for lock step loyalty. They must read the NY Times, for validation and reassurance, even if it doesn't reflect reality.

How many were at those events doesn't matter. The fact the the numbers were challenged at least as much, or in my opinion more, than the issues; is more telling and representative of the insecurity of those arguing about them.

PS - Seeing not one thread started on the President's many appearances over the weekend I wonder. Am I the only one who saw them, or is everyone who saw them more confused and disenfranchised as ever?

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

Post #: 11

RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 1:36:57 PM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It isn't the re-pubs holding it back, it is the infighting between the democratic liberals and democratic conservatives in congress.

Ron

Thank you!!!!!!

I get tired of hearing people say "well they're the dem's, they have all the power, why don't they just pass the bill." As if every single democrat is a carbon copy of each other. Hell...as if every person was a carbon copy of each other, for that matter. While I will admit I will let people go on thinking what they will, its about time someone said it!

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(in reply to mnottertail)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 1:48:24 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It isn't the re-pubs holding it back, it is the infighting between the democratic liberals and democratic conservatives in congress.

Ron

Thank you!!!!!!

I get tired of hearing people say "well they're the dem's, they have all the power, why don't they just pass the bill." As if every single democrat is a carbon copy of each other. Hell...as if every person was a carbon copy of each other, for that matter. While I will admit I will let people go on thinking what they will, its about time someone said it!

You mean ... *gasp* ... that not every single Republican is a criminal, or a sexual predator, or a "right wing nutjob" or a "marching in lockstep idiot" either?

Firm

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 1:56:20 PM

Brain

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I think Pres. Obama needs to twist some arms, three in particular, Evan Bayh/Indiana and Mary Landreau/Louisiana, and I think it’s Ben Nelson/Nebraska. I may be wrong but I think those are the three who are preventing getting to 60 votes and ramming through a single-payer option down Republicans throats.

It’s not just healthcare, it is getting all the other legislation through in a timely and effective manner. I think Obama should use presidents Clinton and Carter and do whatever else it takes to get things done. I heard somebody say he needs to be more like Mohammed Ali and punch somebody in the face!

I don’t feel confused but maybe disenfranchised. He had better do whatever it takes to get a bill through with a public option. I don’t care what kind of deals he has to make to get things done. In this case I would say the end justify the means and that means a health care bill with a single-payer option. Otherwise I think in the next election people should take a hard look at independent and third-party candidates because the Democrat and the Republican parties are both too corrupt.

It’s not about ideology for me any more, I used to be very conservative and supported Reagan and disliked Carter because he was ineffective and weak and a humanitarian but for me these days it’s just to do what works or being pragmatic. Republicans are greedy, not interested in paying taxes, no matter how much money they make they always want to pay less.

I read recently that the Bush tax cuts could have paid for health care two times. Unbelievable is it not that those cuts could have paid for health care twice, never mind the cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, that’s got to be at least $1 trillion. And all the war profiteering and dead civilians and soldiers, sickening!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 1:56:39 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

As for the Million man march: 750,000 to 800,000
World trade center: 3,400 give or take
Tea party protest: 60,000 to 70,000 (the 150 the left agreed on in one of their frequent meetings to lie about the right was the number who could both spell "tea party" and find Washington D.C. on the map) Sorry for anyone who got hit with that zinger unfairly but that "head bobber" comment called for response

What are your numbers on these matters?

I've given at least four good analysis of the numbers at the 9/12 march, and have seen others since them.

The DC transit system reported ridership of more than 260k above normal for the day, and that didn't include the buses, and private transportation.

The 60k figure that you - and others - continue to quote was an estimate that was expressly given as "not official".

Yet, it seems that instead of you or any others on the left actually addressing any of the detailed analysis I provided, continue to quote the lowest figure you can find any slight support for, and discount documented photos, ridership figures and very good mathematical calculations.

Why is that, Spinner?

The National Park service was required - after the so-called "Million Man March" to no longer provide "official" attendance figures after they said that only about 400k people showed up for that particularly politicized rally.

Why is that, Spinner?

Firm

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Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 2:52:11 PM

servantforuse

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Lets get Clinton and Carter to help ? Sure. Clinton couldn't even get his own health care bill passed. And Carter, lets not even go there. He also got nothing done while in office except screw up the economy.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 2:57:35 PM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You mean ... *gasp* ... that not every single Republican is a criminal, or a sexual predator, or a "right wing nutjob" or a "marching in lockstep idiot" either?

Firm

You're getting the ticket, now. (But it might have been fun...and may've added a few pages to this thread if I said you were mistaken

)

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 3:05:18 PM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I've given at least four good analysis of the numbers at the 9/12 march, and have seen others since them.

The DC transit system reported ridership of more than 260k above normal for the day, and that didn't include the buses, and private transportation.

The 60k figure that you - and others - continue to quote was an estimate that was expressly given as "not official".

Yet, it seems that instead of you or any others on the left actually addressing any of the detailed analysis I provided, continue to quote the lowest figure you can find any slight support for, and discount documented photos, ridership figures and very good mathematical calculations.

Why is that, Spinner?

The National Park service was required - after the so-called "Million Man March" to no longer provide "official" attendance figures after they said that only about 400k people showed up for that particularly politicized rally.

Why is that, Spinner?

Firm

All the data I can find regarding the ridership shows that approx 75 (74,851) thousand was the increase over the same saturday (13th) of last year,
This Sept 12(saturday)
http://www.wmata.com/rail/disruption_reports/viewPage_update.cfm?ReportID=1563
Metrorail: 437,624
Metrobus: 236,347

This time last year, same saturday in the month
http://www.wmata.com/rail/disruption_reports/viewPage_update.cfm?ReportID=1198
Metrorail: 362,773
Metrobus: 236,347

But oops I'm not sposed to care about the numbers being bandied about am I... but honestly its nowhere near 260k over their usual numbers,
I prefer their figures to heritage.org
also....
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-crowd15-2009sep15,0,1062512.story

Letting the numbers game drop now:)
Lucy

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(in reply to FirmhandKY)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 3:05:22 PM

kccuckoldmist

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To be fair I watched this very interesting conversation and it was actually more balanced then people just reading will want to slant it with buzz words like “death of conservatism” and New York Times.

The guest/author while did go into the history of the conservative movement and seen where the party of Dick Cheney and Rush types are far removed from the traditional roots, I do not recall him labeling the other type in such a negative way and in fact had more harsh words for bickering and ineffective Democrat party.

His point on the second group is they are older and are afraid of an unknown future. That these people lived through the time of a more socialistic view on society 40’s-70’s and the fear of unknown big change is getting not the disagreement but how out there in tone the disagreement has been. That while people like me see the blatant hypocrisy of older people mostly on a government run health plan complaining that they are just scared of the future regardless of who was in office.

I think the point the author was making was not so much an emotional or specific place we are as a country at this time but where the philosophy that will drive this country in the future. Conservatism from Reagon to the end of Bush he is calling dead as the ideas Americans are rejecting specifically just having eight years of a pretty hardcore practice of them. That the trouble the conservative movement has is currently there are no more ideas to put in place. That those still in the conservative mode in terms of pure free market and minimal regulation and government interference are not growing even if people are acting out against Obama and the Democrats.

In other words, they might be afraid but most Americans still see nowhere in the Republican Party that is being run on stick to failed ideas with no new ones to replace them that is attractive. It has become a fight of worn out old and not seen as good policies of the talkers of the Republican Party versus the bickering cannot have a common plan Democrats.

The dirty secret is how age at play and we saw in the 2008 elections that many theoretical conservatives are very scared of. Their base is the older people and of course they die out. The younger generations replacing them impression of America comes from an age of conservatism that is now not looking too good as we see greedy and corrupt by their inherent nature corporations running this country into the ground.

I think the guest would have been better off naming his book the “death of ideas” or “death by broken record”.

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(in reply to Brain)

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RE: The Death of Conservatism - Bill Moyers Journal . P... - 9/21/2009 4:39:02 PM

Brain

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Obviously it is a bunch of bull because you said so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

What an ivory tower bunch of bull.

Nothing has died.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 20

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