RE: A slaves refusal

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Sunnyfey -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 1:47:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 quote: ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey I think you are making too big a deal of it honey. Is it vital to the relationship that she sing to you? If not...don't throw away a good thing for a silly request. So it is you belief that submissive should get to chose which commands she wishes to obey? A submissive yes, a submissive has a right to choose. a woman who does not ID as a slave, a woman who is "vanilla" with D/s interests. Yeah she has a right to say no to an order. I'm a submissive and I'm not allowed to say no to an order. That does not mean you don't have a right to choose. Read what I said again. A woman who is VANILLA with a D/s interest has right to SAY NO. A submissive has a right to CHOOSE. You choose to follow an order or not, I never said there would not be consequences to your actions.

NihilusZero -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 1:51:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly If something scares the shit outta me literally I can go into lockup mode and a short and simple "no" or "I don't xxxx" would be my answer. I have done it. Afterwards (can even be days/weeks/months later) I realize how fucked up it was but at the time it sounded perfectly reasonable. This could be a potntially enlightening thread, then. Perhaps I'll start one. Where people (perhaps mostly geared towards s-type) can share the oddest, seemingly most mundanbe things that have unexpectedly given them such an internal twist-turn that they retorted in ways they later realize were unbecoming. Psychologically, I'd be curious to find out what sorts of situations qualify these instances. Admittedly, though, the skeptic in me might have a tinge of curiosity for how often these situations were more personally-enforced, intentionally distastes rather than genuine psychological obstacles...but there's not way to actually (easily) tell the difference.

mnottertail -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 1:52:51 PM)
Beneath---the city; Two heart's beat; Soul engines runnin' thru a night so tender; in a bedroom locked; in whispers of soft ---refusal and then surrender---------- Tonight-- in Jungleland-------- AAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! All's well that ends well, n-est ce pas?

Sunnyfey -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 1:54:28 PM)
M did I tell you I adore you today? Because I do [:)][:)]

NihilusZero -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 1:58:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit First of all, I respect you a lot and agree with most everything you say and laugh with just about half of it. I think in many ways, everyone is correct in some part in this thread. You're just trying to butter me up!! Okay, it kinda worked... quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Yet... taking into consideration the whole situation that has played out on the boards and what I know privately from months ago, quite honestly, the situation is something I would be concerned about if say my own son or daughter were in either position of dominant or submissive. Fair enough. So, in relevance to the specific case presented, you have much more information. Should we take the situation as a presumable hypothetical, then? If the OP was someone we didn't know and all we had to go on was the information offered up, would that change our outlooks on how things should have played out? quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit I will say that I don't think it is good to go too easy or to disrespectful places and each has a role in those places. Under differenet circumstances, I would agree heartily with a hardline approach with someone committed to me to obey because we would have the foundation for such. nod quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Think about this... how confused everyone was on the slave... vanilla and all that. Take into consideration the link I posted to help explain. I'll admit to having not gone to it to get greater insight into the particular situation. quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit I am not at all saying there is a misrepresentation someone tried to pull of. I am saying there is more to all of this and this situation cannot be compared to all others. I really hope the best for the op and the young lady. We can disagree and we can have a problem with one another, but that doesn't mean I wish them ill. I didn't mean to suggest you did. The topic itself (as a hypothetical) started poking uncomfortably at my head. Then the OP described the "slave" in a way that was clearly contrary to someone with the awareness or experience to describe themselves as such while understanding what it would entail and it threw the entire debacle for a loop.

mnottertail -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 1:59:50 PM)
yanno, if I could gather up everyone that adores me from afar, instead of up close, and get em up close, I could have all 97 acres of grass individually hand clipped to spec, and every tree bonsai-ed and the finest beef and pork and chicken and other meats in the world and get some of my buildings built and repaired. and I would never have to say anything about getting my dick sucked ever again, either. Nevertheless, thank you. Ron but thats why us folkses is out here, is it not? LOL.

subtlebutterfly -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 2:08:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero This could be a potntially enlightening thread, then. Perhaps I'll start one. Where people (perhaps mostly geared towards s-type) can share the oddest, seemingly most mundanbe things that have unexpectedly given them such an internal twist-turn that they retorted in ways they later realize were unbecoming. Psychologically, I'd be curious to find out what sorts of situations qualify these instances. Admittedly, though, the skeptic in me might have a tinge of curiosity for how often these situations were more personally-enforced, intentionally distastes rather than genuine psychological obstacles...but there's not way to actually (easily) tell the difference. I'm 22 years old. I could count the times it has happened on one hand. I don't remember the causes because it's been so long since the last time, but I do remember that I managed to overcome all those things when I figured how stupid they were. ...welllll all but one, I don't think it's a barrier anymore though. However, I won't know it unless the situation comes up again, but I doubt that it will.................... and that one is too stupid to be mentioned on here, I need to keep whatever is left of my dignity. =X

Lockit -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 2:15:52 PM)
I must say I don't have a great deal of information or knowledge about the op... I have some and what is has been on the boards. Had I not had what was there for most to see if they saw, my answer's may have been different... but I still would have taken the stand in a new relationship, that sometimes things will happen and you need to work through them, bring in correction, try to limit the anger and move on... don't toss away someone new to you if you have laid a foundation for what you are doing. Believe me, I have made mistakes. I went too easy and understanding with one because I could see no other way of doing it in an emotionally healthy manner and with the situation. Where I was doing the more subtle, steady... teaching process, he needed the commanding dominant according to his fantasy. The foundation I thought we had was off because he was lying about everything and it threw me off. I know how easy mistakes can be made and I know how easy things can get out of hand or be confusing. Yet in other relationships... my way has worked. I feel there is a time for everything. Understanding and compassion... mental or emotional health projects... saying.. no matter what darlin, you will do this my way, period. To me everything is situational. But if you get to know my posts...lol... you can see I am pretty hard nosed and demanding, sarcastic and let's not play games here, call it what it is and do what you should. And I am open for someone in my face about it... some times. lol

Falkenstein -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 2:56:27 PM)
Cougar, see it that way, you lost a battle because you encountered a surprise element, but you have not lost the war. I may be reading you badly, but you do not have tons of experience to rely on. Thus, I suppose things are difficult for you. I never do feel like I have enough experience either, but if you do not play the role of the jaded dominant, you will feel relaxed and paradoxally much more confident. What you do have is a heart, listen to it, and let it sing your love and care for her. That will be a melody no Bose system can beat. Good luck and Godspeed. Henry

CaringandReal -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 3:32:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly FR: Maybe she was having your ears and sanity as a priority in this particular case. She may be one of the worst singers in the world. I think I'd have told you that I'd sing for you..after a beer..or two....or perhaps three....ok no after the whole friggin 6-pack more like. However in all seriousness, "singing" is more than just "singing" to some people. It has a lot to do with your self confidence and to open up and put yourself out there on the line. It could very well be one of the biggest challenges a person can face especially if they aren't 200% comfortable. I'd say that there's something else behind the "I don't sing" that needs to be worked on. Yeah, it's not that simple. For some people singing is enormously phobic and brings up enormous feelings of self-hatred and horrific memories, usually due to past ridicule. It was (and still is) a phobia of mine. When I was a new slave, I couldn't do it. However, my response was to start crying and begging him to reconsider, I didn't say "no" or "it wasn't cool." I was too busy shaking in horror. These days although I would hate it, I could sing on command and without hesitation, but I'm speaking from a position of over 16 years training, both in slavery and in the relative importance of various things in life. (Compared to what can and does happen, singing's pretty low on my little list of horrors.) I have a suggestion. When new or potential slaves get upset about doing things, try to remember that they weren't born a slave, they lack training, they may very well still lack comfort with and trust in you, and consider it a reflection on your skills and dominance when you one day you not only get them to do something they find terrifying and extremely hard but to do it without a lot of the terror and trauma they currently carry. If you treat something that is this serious for some people trivially, as a sign that the person is not a real slave at heart, then you may pass over someone very special and real who just had trouble in a certain area. Why not give such a person a choice, if they're new to you and to slavery? Tell them they're going to have to do ten other arduous things if they don't sing for you. And if they're so phobic of singing (or whatever it is) that they choose the ten hard things, observe how they perform these commands as you give them out. If their behavior is one of consistent refusal well then maybe they aren't cut out to be a slave, but if they perform these things eagerly and without complaint then you know you're dealing with someone who wants to serve and please but happens to have a very tender spot in one small specific area. I was amazed about seven or eight years in when I started to sing a little bit around the house. That was just something I never. ever. did at any time in my adult life and it said a lot to me about how much I trusted him.

AquaticSub -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 4:44:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey That does not mean you don't have a right to choose. Read what I said again. A woman who is VANILLA with a D/s interest has right to SAY NO. A submissive has a right to CHOOSE. You choose to follow an order or not, I never said there would not be consequences to your actions. At the risk of getting in the infamous debate: As does the slave - legally. The submissive can as much ignore her right to get up and leave as does anyone who IDs as a slave. There are plenty of people who choose the term submissive because they dislike the word slave, despite living a life that many here who call "slave". If a submissive feels she doesn't have the right to say no in her relationship, then she doesn't except for the same legal right that a slave does.

Andalusite -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 7:44:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Where people (perhaps mostly geared towards s-type) can share the oddest, seemingly most mundanbe things that have unexpectedly given them such an internal twist-turn that they retorted in ways they later realize were unbecoming. Psychologically, I'd be curious to find out what sorts of situations qualify these instances. Admittedly, though, the skeptic in me might have a tinge of curiosity for how often these situations were more personally-enforced, intentionally distastes rather than genuine psychological obstacles...but there's not way to actually (easily) tell the difference. Hmm, I have a couple of triggers that some people might consider to be odd or mundane, but were linked to specific bad experiences. So far, I've been able to articulate the problem fairly well, usually in advance. Once or twice, someone I'd just started dating pushed my buttons in a negative way badly enough that I was non-verbal or not able to explain things very well briefly, but I was usually able to get my head together within 10-15 minutes. I have some soft limits which are linked to emotional involvement and commitment. I may want to do them, and enjoy them a great deal under the right circumstances, but if he wanted me to do them casually with someone else, it would be a dealbreaker for me. There are some things I just dislike, and I mostly will try to do them for someone if I am submissive (or slave) to him. For example, I reacted submissively toward one man who wanted me to be his submissive, but on terms I couldn't cope with. He wanted me to eat BBQed eel and seaweed, and I'm very picky. I choked down a few bites of each, even though he only requested, rather than ordered it. Some foods I probably couldn't even manage that much with (like escargot or oysters), even though some people love both. I'm not sure if it's a psychological issue, per se, but I tend to barf, or nearly so, if I eat things with certain textures.[:'(] If my Master ordered me to try it anyway, I would attempt it, but I probably would complain a bit. Fortunately, he has a similar reaction to a couple of foods, so is understanding about it. I'm not really frightened of insects or snakes, but it would be incredibly difficult for me to touch one (ladybugs, butterflies, some caterpillars, and bees are ok, though). I don't think it's likely to come up, and I haven't listed it as a hard limit, but I might have some initial resistance, or even be startled enough to phrase it poorly if it came up suddenly. Sunnyfey, in my relationship, my Master has not given me an ultimatum that "choosing" not to do something is automatic cause for a breakup. I wouldn't make that choice lightly, and I feel driven to do his bidding, even when it is very difficult for me. In my previous 3 year relationship as a submissive, I frequently did things I hated, or that hurt beyond what I thought I could take, or in a couple of cases pushed myself to the point where it might have been damaging (he noticed my reaction, and backed off, but I didn't safe out since I wanted to please him, and thought I could take it). There are some differences in the ways I interact with my Master compared to my previous Dominant, but that's probably more related to them being different than the relationship labels we chose. I would not identify as a slave unless I were able to genuinely and wholeheartedly comply with my Master's expectations of a slave, compared to a submissive. We discussed it in depth before I made a commitment to him. I also let him know the specific areas in which I was likely to have some difficulties, and I've already been able to submit to him in some of those areas. He's been very supportive and encouraging with me, rather than pushing me to do things he knows I will struggle with, until he has laid the groundwork to move into those areas.

Sunnyfey -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 8:01:38 PM)
"If my Master ordered me to try it anyway, I would attempt it, but I probably would complain a bit" But isn't complaining, not being submissive? In some peoples thought processes an s-type complaining or otherwise not being "yielding and sweet" is basically a slap in the face of the whole M./s dynamic. What do you think?

justagirlinzh -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 8:06:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 quote: ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey I think you are making too big a deal of it honey. Is it vital to the relationship that she sing to you? If not...don't throw away a good thing for a silly request. So it is you belief that submissive should get to chose which commands she wishes to obey? A submissive yes, a submissive has a right to choose. a woman who does not ID as a slave, a woman who is "vanilla" with D/s interests. Yeah she has a right to say no to an order. I'm a submissive and I'm not allowed to say no to an order. That does not mean you don't have a right to choose. Read what I said again. A woman who is VANILLA with a D/s interest has right to SAY NO. A submissive has a right to CHOOSE. You choose to follow an order or not, I never said there would not be consequences to your actions. Anyone has a right to say no though, at least those of us in the free world certainly do. Obedience is a choice whether someone self labels as a sub or slave, every second of the day we choose to obey. At any moment, I could say, 'Hahaha, go F yourself.' and be done.

Sunnyfey -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 8:08:59 PM)
Oh I agree sweetheart. I was strictly going with the, more widely accepted terms of an M/s dynamic as opposed to a D/s or vanilla dynamic.

justagirlinzh -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 8:11:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey Oh I agree sweetheart. I was strictly going with the, more widely accepted terms of an M/s dynamic as opposed to a D/s or vanilla dynamic. Ah, OK. I gothcha. :-)

Andalusite -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 8:21:27 PM)
I mostly am yielding and sweet, but sometimes I struggle, physically or mentally, with something he wants me to do. Mostly I struggle with myself, instead of against him. Either way, he thinks it's hot! He doesn't feel like my struggling compromises his dominance or mastery, it gives him the opportunity to re-inforce it at times, sometimes he feels that whatever I'm struggling with isn't a big deal to him, and backs off while I work on it in the future, sometimes I try and feel like I fail, but he tells me that making that effort, trying my best, is what he wants from me. I've never claimed to be perfect, and he accepts that, and has realistic expectations of me. So far, I haven't complained much, but I have often struggled, and expressed it verbally or in my body language. He likes that I'm independent, strong, and a bit opinionated, but he can turn my brain to mush with a look or a tug on my hair. [;)] If I blurted out something like "Eww, gross!" or "I'll probably throw up on you if you make me eat an oyster!" he'd probably chuckle, ruffle or yank my hair, and either tell me he wants to try my best, or back off and let me eat something else. Or, he might order me to work toward it over the course of a couple of weeks, desensitising myself (ie. starting with a cooked one, and just licking it rather than actually needing to swallow it, then taking a tiny bite, etc.). I think an awful lot of people have a pretty unrealistic view of the M/s dynamic. In any case, I'm his slave, [not "a slave" in general. I need to conform to his expectations, not NZ's, or Jeff's or LadyPact's, or some consensus perspective. As long as he's happy, that's what's important.[:D] I don't think what I do undermines your relationship, or Jeff's or LadyPact's, or M/s dynamics in general. Would you really give me that kind of power over your life and relationship, when we've never even met? [;)]

Sunnyfey -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 8:24:10 PM)
Good for you [:D] Your answers always make a lot of sense to me. I'm glad I get to read them so often.

Andalusite -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 8:30:10 PM)
Thanks, Sunnyfey! You have some really thought-provoking posts! Seriously, when I was looking a few months ago, I was completely incompatible with the majority of men who self-identify as Masters here (whether or not they were in relationships). I didn't rule anyone out based on orientation, but I was far more cautious about Dominants and Masters than Tops, sadists, switches, submissives, or slaves, since I very rarely react to someone the way I need to in order to have a D/s or M/s relationship with him, and it does involve so much vulnerability. Part of that is wanting/needing to do things he wants, even if they are difficult or I don't want to do them. Before my Master and I committed to one another, we tested that in some minor ways, since I felt it was crucial to have that specific connection with him, and I couldn't know how I would react theoretically.

IronBear -> RE: A slaves refusal (9/24/2009 10:12:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey Good for you [:D] Your answers always make a lot of sense to me. I'm glad I get to read them so often. Agreed! She is also awful cute too as are you ...Bonus!

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