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Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 12:08:29 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		in another thread we have been given a few heart felt thoughts on the struggles that many in the lifestyle have gone thru in evolving from the Abusive/unhealthy relationship to the conscious healthy relationship of slavery/submission.

A thought that generated from reading the other thread came to me and to avoid hijacking a very positive thread, I start this thread as a question.

Is all Abusive Relationships an Unhealthy relationship?

Is all unhealthy relationships an abusive relationship?

If you say yes to both... obviously you consider abusive and unhealthy relationships are one and the same. What do you thing they are? If you answer yes to one and no to the other, then I suspect you see the two as being different.... so what is the difference for you?

What are your thoughts to these questions?

Thanks in advance for you thoughts.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 12:13:53 PM   
slaveladyj


Posts: 161
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		Someone said in quite well in the other thread, it's all about consent. A sub/slave gives consent for the abusive treatment. Which is what makes it different from an abusive, unhealthy relationship. Because I think an abusive one is unhealthy, and an unhealthy one is abusive. With one qualification, an unhealthy one is abusive in more ways than just the physical.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 12:45:07 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I could see being in a mutually unhealthy relationship where, let's say, both people want to eat and smoke, do drugs, etc that are arguably unhealthy for their bodies if not more but which they'd do regardless of if they were in that relationship or alone. They might do it more when they have a buddy.

Emotionally unhealthy could also be two people who have low self-esteem and just sort of feed off each other issues. I suppose that could be considered abusive all around but I know a couple like this. I don't think they've made the best choices but I also don't see that its abusive its just stupid and foolish.

I think the difference is much clearer in my mind than I can lay out.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 12:55:39 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Good question Sir...my thoughts are, nothing is unhealthy if you learn and grow from the experiences it gives you. Sometimes the process can be long and painful, but without it perhaps you would never have come to the conclusions you did about yourself and life.

I think, a lot of life is about meeting our adversities, tensions, challenges and all of that. Sorry to use an old parable thats used in a lot of cultures, but I cant help but think about the tension contained within an oak seed that propels it to grow into a massive tree.

No matter the experiences that come to us, even if they seem unhealthy, its how we deal with them, or the result of them that make the difference.

So to answer the question are all abusive relationships unhealthy? No i dont think so, not if you learn and grow from them.

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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 12:56:02 PM   
SimplyV


Posts: 351
Joined: 11/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I could see being in a mutually unhealthy relationship where, let's say, both people want to eat and smoke, do drugs, etc that are arguably unhealthy for their bodies if not more but which they'd do regardless of if they were in that relationship or alone. They might do it more when they have a buddy.

Emotionally unhealthy could also be two people who have low self-esteem and just sort of feed off each other issues. I suppose that could be considered abusive all around but I know a couple like this. I don't think they've made the best choices but I also don't see that its abusive its just stupid and foolish.

I think the difference is much clearer in my mind than I can lay out.


Tammyjo.. thats what I was thinking too.. but couldn't really find good phrasing.

To me abusive is more than just dysfunctional. And while abuse can take many forms, its something more than just two idiots making a bad decision to be together.

Somewhere in my mind, abuse is the purposeful non-consentual destroying of another person for your own gratification. Or something like that?

Anyway.. I agree with you.. but I can't really explain it either. *sighs*

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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 1:06:59 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Er no. i think an abusive relationship is generally also an unhealthy one, but i do not think an unhealthy relationship is also abusive.

Say for example i have a friend that i always get introuble with. Getting introuble with the law, with ppl and just generally when the two of us go out together. Heh, it doesnt even have to end on an unpleasant note.

unhealthy yet not abusive

i'm sure i could also think of some abusive relationships that are not unhealthy - but are healthy. Though i am sure that's going to create an uproar and every one will think i'm off my rocker. Which i think i certifiably am, but anyhoo. Theory goes like this. We all end up with ppl that we want, generally subconsciously. Something in the back of our brain searches it out amongst the millions of fishies in the sea. Just look at what you tend to find yourself attracted too. For me, i look at my track record and its generally players. (not sayin i havent dated others, but i tend to get bored faster of the others) Its attraction i'm lookin at here.

Now add that up with a convo i had with a woman 8 years ago about certian ppl have in their heads abuse magnets. They draw them to them and they're drawn to them. But its something in the head and its something that only "therapy" can help get out.

Okay, so i've fairly made the point that we want what we have, atleast on a subconscious level. The whole conscious mind is a whole nother story. Subsconsciously we seek out who ever/whatever relationship we're in. But why?

And for me, everything has a reason. And granted everything doesnt always have a reason, which totally gives me issues when it doesnt, but this time i think it does.

i think ppl are subconsciously working out past problems. Past issues. Retribution towards whatever sins one may feel they've commited? And with out that retribution, one cant get over or past the sins they feel they've commited in the past. So they NEED that retribution. To once again feel better about themselves.

So (holds up index fingers as she comes to her point) therefore i think that sometimes abusive relationships can be healthy as they help ppl get over things to feel better about themselves. Which is an odd round about way of doing things.

Never said it was Intelligent. But if you look at it. And ask yourself, why do ppl hurt themselves? Or why do ppl put themselves in terrible places? Generally the answer is because they dont feel good about themselves. They deserve it in one manner or the other. And generally if those that put themselves in those situations dont die in them, they tend to grow from them.

AND if you think about it (i've alot of theories to back up this theory) heh. when we "do wrong" or "displease" our Tops (generic) generally s/s feel bad about it until they've been punished. Once that punishment comes they can get past their misdeed and move forward. i've seen it written here in the forums. Its like punishment cleanses them. Makes it all better.

So is it human natures need to be punished? And if we havent anyone to punish us...

Now like i said i could be off my rocker.. but its a theory for the reason. Granted i'm sure they're are tons of possible theories, but i havent thought of those yet = )

(i'm editing cos its a REALLY long post and i cant imagine anyone wanting to read such a long post) (it didnt work well)

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 3/1/2006 1:09:36 PM >

(in reply to slaveladyj)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 1:30:52 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

Is all Abusive Relationships an Unhealthy relationship?

Is all unhealthy relationships an abusive relationship?


When defining abuse as maltreatment without consent the statement all abusive relationships are unhealthy relationships is absolutely true, with no doubt in my mind. I don't think that there's any healthy way to mistreat someone without their consent. Both the abuser and the abused are unhealthy.

It can be argued that the person being abused is consenting by remaining in the relationship. This is usually the stance taken by the abuser and their defenders. An unfortunate catch-22 in which many victims find themselves. Once they are in the position of being abused they usually don't feel as though they have the choice to say no or leave.


Are all unhealthy relationships abusive relationships seems to be a more grey area to me. I spent quite some time thinking of the possibilities and have finally come up with one scenario where a relationship is unhealthy and neither participant is being abused.

As is usually the case with any statement containing "all" or "every" or the like there's an exception.


Thank you KoM, for a wonderful thought experiment this afternoon.

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 1:31:08 PM   
MistressFire70


Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I feel that the terms are synonyms.

The definition of abuse is
# To use wrongly or improperly; misuse.
# To hurt or injure by maltreatment.

We "use" and "hurt" people in this lifestyle. These things, given consent, don't make the relationship abusive. What makes it abusive is when we use "wrongly or improperly", "mis"use or hurt by "maltreatment".

The definition of unhealthy is
# Harmful to character or moral health; corruptive.

Again, we aim to "hurt" people, but we refrain from "harm". To harm someone is to misuse or injure them by maltreatment.

But then, we're arguing symmantics.

Fire


_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 2:00:03 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline 		An extremely interesting, if not immensely ambitious subject worthy of discourse far exceeding the capacity of this board.

The debate of what is healthy and what is unhealthy abuse inevitably lends itself to a quilt of semantics and relativism. In the end, I feel there is no one profile, quote, qualifier, label or thread of intellectual deliberation that can offer reliable differentiation between what is healthy and what is not, what is non-productive abuse and what is not. What is hell for some may be heaven for others.

This in the end is a reality that those who would appoint themselves as arbiters need to reflect upon.


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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 3:23:09 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Are all Abusive Relationships unhealthy?

Are all unhealthy relationships abusive?


Don't know. If someone is willing to stay in a relationship I feel is unhealthy, they probably need to be there for some reason beyond my ability to understand. So, is that healthy. They are obviously getting something they need or they wouldn't be there.

I find it hard to wrap my brain around healthy/unhealthy and abusive/abuser. As many people seek out things that most people would immediately write off as unhealthy and abusive. Having a slave in general, would get you the label unhealthy. If we are going off of the general consensus of the nation. Actually, this whole community would be written off as unhealthy for the most part.

So, healthy by my standards, yours, or the general consensus. In order to really answer you'd have to define healthy, and abusive.


(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 3:36:55 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Is all Abusive Relationships an Unhealthy relationship?


In my opinion, yes. (I am assuming we aren't equating submission with abuse). The only way an abusive relationship is healthy is if one party, or both, get the heck out and ulitmately benefit from the knowledge that the previous relationship provided. (i.e.- what not to look for next time, abuse patterns and indicators, inappropriate actions, etc.) Abuse is never healthy. Fortunately, many can learn from it, but it doesn't make the situation any better.

quote:

Is all Abusive Relationships an Unhealthy relationship?


No. There are many different types of unhealthy relationships, many which have absolutely nothing to do with abuse. Take for example, a relationship of severe codependency, or one in which the bad behavior (smoking, drug use, kicking puppies, etc.) of one partner rubs off on the other partner, or perhaps one in which two people are simply very wrong for each other. I suppose someone could argue that these are all forms of abuse, but that's just quibbling over semantics.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 3:43:48 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		NOMC, glad to see you posting over here again!!!

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 4:03:48 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Thanks! Life's been insane, so I've been avoiding anything that takes real thought. LOL. It's probably time I stretched my thinking muscle, though.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to yourMissTress)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 4:24:08 PM   
Cloudz


Posts: 836
Joined: 9/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Good question Sir...my thoughts are, nothing is unhealthy if you learn and grow from the experiences it gives you. Sometimes the process can be long and painful, but without it perhaps you would never have come to the conclusions you did about yourself and life.

I think, a lot of life is about meeting our adversities, tensions, challenges and all of that. Sorry to use an old parable thats used in a lot of cultures, but I cant help but think about the tension contained within an oak seed that propels it to grow into a massive tree.

No matter the experiences that come to us, even if they seem unhealthy, its how we deal with them, or the result of them that make the difference.

So to answer the question are all abusive relationships unhealthy? No i dont think so, not if you learn and grow from them.


jail,

I must disagree. There are many things that happen or that we can experience that are unhealthy...for a variety of reasons. The value lies in learning from the experience...with knowledge gained it can never be considered time wasted.

Just my thoughts

_____________________________

Enjoy the Journey,
~Cloudz

"Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain."


(in reply to slavejali)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/1/2006 4:29:20 PM   
Cloudz


Posts: 836
Joined: 9/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If you say yes to both... obviously you consider abusive and unhealthy relationships are one and the same. What do you thing they are? If you answer yes to one and no to the other, then I suspect you see the two as being different.... so what is the difference for you?


To me, abusive generally denotes misuse of power. The abuse of the one who has power (financial, physical, emotional, etc) Child abuse comes to mind. Unhealthy is more of a choice, I am capable of ending the relationship and I am aware that the behavior is in some way detrimental to me...and yet I continue. Living with an alcoholic comes to mind.

<Edited for a mis-spelling so blatant it changed the meaning of the sentence! <grin>



< Message edited by Cloudz -- 3/1/2006 4:30:16 PM >

_____________________________

Enjoy the Journey,
~Cloudz

"Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain."


(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/2/2006 2:47:37 AM   
Dom4me2


Posts: 27
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

An extremely interesting, if not immensely ambitious subject worthy of discourse far exceeding the capacity of this board.

The debate of what is healthy and what is unhealthy abuse inevitably lends itself to a quilt of semantics and relativism. In the end, I feel there is no one profile, quote, qualifier, label or thread of intellectual deliberation that can offer reliable differentiation between what is healthy and what is not, what is non-productive abuse and what is not. What is hell for some may be heaven for others.

This in the end is a reality that those who would appoint themselves as arbiters need to reflect upon.




quote:

In the end, I feel there is no one profile, quote, qualifier, label or thread of intellectual deliberation that can offer reliable differentiation between what is healthy and what is not, what is non-productive abuse and what is not.


I respectfully disagree. I think it can be summed up with the following:

"Safe, Sane and Consentual"

Kathleen

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/2/2006 5:28:42 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4me2

I respectfully disagree. I think it can be summed up with the following:

"Safe, Sane and Consentual"

Kathleen



aaww yes... but what is "Safe, Sane and Consentual".... the terms themselves are rather subjective!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Dom4me2)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/2/2006 5:37:37 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Is all Abusive Relationships an Unhealthy relationship?

I would say yes. But then, my definition of abusive and unhealthy are sure to differ from that of another. So, using only my definitions...yes.

quote:

Is all unhealthy relationships an abusive relationship?

No. Not all unhealthy relationships are abusive. But, once again, my definitions are sure to differ. I see abusive as a misuse of power, whether it be physical, mental, or emotional. Whereas I look at unhealthy as something that would fall in the area of; drug dependancy, achohol dependancy, co-dependancy, etc.

That's just using my own idea of what each is though.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/2/2006 6:01:00 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		some have indicated that abuse is a misuse of power.... So....


misuse defined:

1 : to use incorrectly : MISAPPLY <misused his talents>
2 : ABUSE, MISTREAT <misused his servants>

in the context of abuse, it's clear that the second definition is the most applicable.

So Abusive relationships would be for some be a misuse of power which reflects a misuse/mistreatment of their partners. This seems to indicate to me that there is a required standard to which ones partners should be treated to. So, what is the standard.... who dictates the standard that a submissive should be treated to? For that matter, who dictates the standard that a Dominant should be treated to? Can't Dominant's be abused?

more Interesting thoughts to consider... many profess that the submissive has all the power in the relationship.... if this is true... then how is it possible that a submissive is ever abused.... since the Dominant for some doesn't have any power to misuse... the submissive as it all. I also hear countless times that the submissives give all the power to the Dominant... so does that mean that a Dominant can't be abused?

As I consider these questions, personally they only tend to validate my own instinctive opinion that power exists with all in a relationship. That power is shared and not exchange from one to the other!

What are your thoughts?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Abusive Relationship vrs Unhealthy Relationship - 3/2/2006 7:09:58 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Abusive involves one person needing to make another person less. You could be in a relationship with someone who was not abusive yet that relationship could be unhealthy for you. Example: your partner becomes very religious and you have an abhorrence of organized religion. The two people's needs here conflict and the relationship therefore would not fulfill either one, yet neither person is abusive.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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