RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (Full Version)

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lusciouslips19 -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 3:43:10 PM)

Thas why we have words like Boi, Gurl and Biotch.




Vendaval -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 3:44:23 PM)

[sm=jerry.gif]




happylittlepet -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 3:45:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissLeslie

If you don't like the genetic terms of "female" and "male", then all you have to do is to find a scientifically recognized board that will endorse a new gender for you; then you can find a board of English professors to include your new term in that brand new dictionary you are working on  


Are we talking gender or sex now?

Actually, there is research and recognition. A lot of research has been done by Sandra Bem:


At the young age of thirty one Bem received the American Psychological Association Distinguished Scientific Award for an Early Career Contribution to Psychology, "For her studies of sex roles, androgyny, and the ontogeny of psychosexual identity and maturity" (1990, 33). This award was given to her by the American Psychological Association in 1976 (1997). In Women In Psychology: A Biographic Sourcebook, Sandra Lipsitz Bem was recognized for her research in personalities. It states:

For her studies of sex roles, androgyny, and the ontogeny of psychosexual identity and maturity. She has both clarified and questioned long-held assumptions about the oppositional or bipolar nature of sex roles, and persuasively put forward a concept of psychological androgyny. These analytic and logical endeavors have been buttressed by the accumulation of an impressive amount of empirical data to support the hypothesis that a blending of so-called masculine and feminine dispositions is more adaptive than stereotypic emphasis on either alone. These findings are leading her to a fundamental reexamination of the psychological, philosophical, and ego-integrative implications of sex role conflicts and resolutions (1990, 372).

http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/sandrabem.html

And it's in Webster's too [:)]




MissLeslie -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 3:46:54 PM)

Please see Merriam-Webster's dictionary definition for "woman".  I could pull up the definition for "lesbian" also, but I see no need to be snide like so many love to be on these boards.  I think that what I have written speaks for itself, without further comment, so, I will let all of you make your own comments, so that you folks can have the kind of discussion and discourse that you have so fondly written of...oh, dinner is ready?  what PERFECT TIMING!  




kiwisub12 -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 3:49:18 PM)

Since this is a social board  -  not a scientific forum,  people can call themselves any thing they want   - even late for dinner!!!   And guess what?   -  there is no one person who is the label police here.   So if i wanted to call myself a lesbian man  , then that is my perogative.   It would be a bit weird given that i have boobs and no dick, but i could do it.

Lighten up a little OP.




angelikaJ -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 3:49:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissLeslie

quote:

)


The author of the profile cannot be a lesbian, because they are not female! 



According to you, but perhaps not according to them.

And s/he (or the gender neutral xhe) has not been deceitful in anything that she says.





Sunnyfey -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 3:49:59 PM)

The reason I have not started a conversation about inter-sexed persons is for the simple fact I am not an inter-sexed person and could really offer no salient querries on the subject, since I will never understand the social problems that come with being apart of that demographic.

The reason I brough it up in this conversation however was this part of your post,

"In very rare instances, such as my own, it is simply far easier to say that I am transgendered, instead of saying that I am genetically female (which I am) and happen to have additional genetic material in myself from a non-viable male twin, while I was still in the womb, prior to my own birth"


So, could you in fact ID as an inter-sexed person, and if you could, how would that effect your ideas on this subject in general?




falconne -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 3:54:57 PM)

science recognizes more than two genders,and more than two sexes.it is a matter of degree as well as identity.  society lags as we generally only see the two more common divisions,within which are various degrees,as well.
on a public board one will see the more accepted ways of self identification, but folks,we all have our own histories which flavor our experience,and I have never 'fit' the freekin labels fully,either in the vanilla world or here,to be honest. I take issue with a few common terms,because that's not what I really am. it is a better fit,and I have learned how to more fully define myself. I am a bit of a research geek and stickler for being as correct as possible. most folks just want to be understood or allowed to get on the ride. and why not? is this not a safe place to learn,and develope? call me a dreamer,but do not call me just bisexual,lol. seriously.




Level -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 4:00:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

  So if i wanted to call myself a lesbian man  , then that is my perogative.


I use the term "mesbian" here.




OttersSwim -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 4:04:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissLeslie

Please see Merriam-Webster's dictionary definition for "woman".  I could pull up the definition for "lesbian" also, but I see no need to be snide like so many love to be on these boards.  I think that what I have written speaks for itself, without further comment, so, I will let all of you make your own comments, so that you folks can have the kind of discussion and discourse that you have so fondly written of...oh, dinner is ready?  what PERFECT TIMING!  



I'm so sorry, but a word in a dictionary is far too small to "define" me, my life, or my experiences.  Nor will your waiving it around in an angry pants manner convince me, nor many here, otherwise.  You are welcome to your opinion, but don't be surprised that when you express it - especially one so full of anger and broad generalizations about an entire group of people - others will strongly refute your position.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 4:31:38 PM)

I've been an active counselor in the GLBT community for over 30 years. It's always been my policy to find out from people how they see -themselves-, and to address and refer to them on those terms. I find that that gives the greatest credence to the individual's experience, rather than trying to cram them in yet another box that they may or may not fit well. I've had T's who still hadn't begun their transition or who were still considering whether they'd be able to handle ripping up 30 or 40 years of an existing life to have their outsides accurately reflect the person they knew inside themselves who preferred to be addressed as their perceived gender. I don't consider that -cheating- or -deceitful-... I just consider it personal preference. If I were completely stuck on having certain people with certain characteristics, and I found someone who approached me who appeared to meet those criteria but then turned out not to, then I should be able to stand up for my -own- preferences, without shame, anger, or fear, and gently inform the person that xhe's not a good fit for me. If I can't do that, then it is on -me- for not being able to effectively manage my own interactions.

Of course, to be completely fair, I think I have an unfair advantage where this question is concerned, though, since if I become enamored of someone, physical gender or perceived gender and any association between them is pretty much irrelevant to me -- only the affection and respect for one another and embracing of the selves that we claim matters.

Dame Calla




NormalOutside -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 5:18:38 PM)

I agree mostly with the OP. It's a pretty common theme among transgendered people to pretend or act. I guess that goes with their situation, though. I can't really blame them and say "they're all out to harass and trick the rest of us!" But yes, it's annoying, and can be quite upsetting at times. I try to just stay away. Nothing personal, just my preference.




daintydimples -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 5:36:16 PM)

For the OP: I did not get very far into your pompous and rather over blown post because early on it implied all cross dressers were transgendered. This is patently false.

If you're going to go on a know it all rant, at least get your facts straight.

I have noticed a great deal of bias against CDs and TGs; I am not sure why. I think the root cause is similar to the bias against switches. People who are clearly on one side of the fence don't get those who straddle it.

Just my thoughts.













SthrnCom4t -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 5:42:48 PM)

I really don't think life has to be this complicated. There are a lot of clinical definitions used to describe people, which aren't used in every day conversation. Most people don't have a psychology degree, sexology degree, or medical degree. I'm sure your post is full of factual information.

Consider this...Lots of profiles identify themselves as "intelligent". I'm glad they think so, but I always read through them, and make my own determination.

I can empathize with the fact that people not having the same definition as you, is frustrating. I can appreciate you trying to 'educate' the masses. However, the length and depth of your post kinda resembles a rant....just sayin'.

In all likelihood, none of the people you've run into who are 'misrepresenting' themselves, did so in an effort to deceive you personally. It appears as if you like labels and boxes and wish everyone would fit neatly into them. For most, this generates a feeling of security, secondary to perceived expectation.

I haven't read the majority of the responses thus far, though I know Otter has had fun today dancing in your topic. I don't think the CM forums are going to be a place where you find much sympathy or empathy for your position. Probably most will suggest you relax, grab a drink, and let others enjoy their own little world as they define it.




MissLeslie -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 5:48:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples

For the OP: I did not get very far into your pompous and rather over blown post because early on it implied all cross dressers were transgendered. This is patently false.

If you're going to go on a know it all rant, at least get your facts straight.

I have noticed a great deal of bias against CDs and TGs; I am not sure why. I think the root cause is similar to the bias against switches. People who are clearly on one side of the fence don't get those who straddle it.

Just my thoughts.



Ma'am, you are wholly inaccurate.  Please produce a direct quote to prove your point, for there is no such quote that I am aware of whatsoever.  You stated, and I will quote you Ma'am:  "I did not get very far into your pompous and rather over blown post because early on it implied all cross dressers were transgendered."  Where is this quote that you are speaking of?




VioletGray -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 5:52:38 PM)

First let me say, that your post is ridiculously long, and the only reason I read it at all is because the subject of gender fascinates me, even from a perspective as misguided as yours.  Consequently this response is also going to be a bit long, so if anyone else is reading this, please feel free to heat up some popcorn, go into the living room, and watch reruns of Firefly.  The Original Poster I hope will indulge me, considering she would expect us to read her Stephen King sized novel on what her idea of gender is.  I'm just going to respond on a paragraph by paragraph basis, ok? Here we go:

Paragraph 1: O.k., I'm listening.

Paragraph 2:  Monosexual? Really? This word is completely unnecessary.  Even if the person looks like Hulk Hogan in a teddy, if they tell you they are "Lesbian" then you know they like women.  You get the point.  What if the person identifies as female, but has not yet been able to transition? Female brained doesn't matter?  

Paragraph 3:  I agree that no one should intentionally try to mislead people who read their profile.  That having been said, it is that person's right to identify as the gender they see fit. There are people who lose their families, jobs, and all their possessions to exercise this right.  IMHO, I think that if a woman or woman in transition was born male that is her business, but that it is good  to let the reader of said profile know ahead of time.  Those who list their gender is "Female" but mention that they are transgendered are not being misleading.  If they don't mention that that are transgendered then they are being very inconsiderate to anyone they meet in the future.

Paragraph 4:  I agree that just because someone says they are transgendered does not mean that they are.  Though if we want to be reaally nitpicky, you don't even fit the definition of transgendered that you just offered.  How can you identify as the opposite sex, when, from a genetic standpoint, you are both sexes?  

Paragraph 5 (beginning at 'pre op'): O.k., I would agree with this so far..

Paragraph 6:  There are some who would disagree that Post-Ops are not women.  But before we can reach an understanding on that, we'd first have to agree on what it means to be a man or woman.  Is it body or mind?  Being bisexual it may not matter to you, but imagine if a hetero woman took a guy home to find out that he had a vagina.  How much difference will it make when he says  "But baby, I'm still genetically male."

Paragraph 7:  I would disagree with your definition of the word "transition."  I think that defining it as a person who is "Preparing for SRS" is an extreme oversimplification.  I know people who have transitioned completely that have not had SRS.  They've had hormones, facial surgery, their names legally changed, grown breasts, work, live, and hang out with their friends as a woman.  One person I know even has a huge group of friends that don't even know she was born male.  Now if my friend Justin, the mixed martial arts tough-guy suddenly decided to get a vagina tomorrow, with no other changes, at what point was he, "transitioning?"  


.....And while we're on this paragraph, you had me worried at the words, "Political Agenda."   I try my best to be objective, and not to come off as harsh or rude, but if you think that people are doing this for political reasons then perhaps the straps on your tin-foil hat need to be loosened a bit.  I'm sorry, that is not constructive I know, but a ludicrous idea deserves a ludicrous response.


Actually you know what? I'm going to stop going paragraph by paragraph, I'd be all night.  I'll just list bullet points.

  • Having a 4.0 gpa in college and a psychology minor does not make you right.
  • There's irony in the fact that so much of this offends you "As a woman" when the mainstream would not consider you to be a woman either.
  • If you were a lesbian and found the profile of a "Transsexual Lesbian" disgusting, that is because you are closed-minded.  Don't get me wrong, you have a right to be attracted to who you want, But "Disgusting" smells of bigotry.
  • A HUGE point that you fail to understand is that crossdressing is not about being dishonest to others, it's about self-expression.  Most crossdressers would choose the acceptance of society first and foremost.  Who is the crossdresser lying to, when they lock themselves in the bedroom and dress up when no one else is around?  If I wear a Baltimore Ravens Jersey when I walk down the street, am I lying to those around me?  Or am I just expressing my interests?


In closing, I think that your bitterness clouds your reason.  I think your rhetoric is vaguely KKK-like, and that the only people who would agree with you would hate you too, because you are different.




MissLeslie -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 5:53:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t

I really don't think life has to be this complicated. There are a lot of clinical definitions used to describe people, which aren't used in every day conversation. Most people don't have a psychology degree, sexology degree, or medical degree. I'm sure your post is full of factual information.

Consider this...Lots of profiles identify themselves as "intelligent". I'm glad they think so, but I always read through them, and make my own determination.

I can empathize with the fact that people not having the same definition as you, is frustrating. I can appreciate you trying to 'educate' the masses. However, the length and depth of your post kinda resembles a rant....just sayin'.

In all likelihood, none of the people you've run into who are 'misrepresenting' themselves, did so in an effort to deceive you personally. It appears as if you like labels and boxes and wish everyone would fit neatly into them. For most, this generates a feeling of security, secondary to perceived expectation.

I haven't read the majority of the responses thus far, though I know Otter has had fun today dancing in your topic. I don't think the CM forums are going to be a place where you find much sympathy or empathy for your position. Probably most will suggest you relax, grab a drink, and let others enjoy their own little world as they define it.



Ma'am, a man IS NOT FEMALE!  Plain and simple.  What I am speaking of are simple genetics that all of us women learned early on in school; it's not rocket science or anything like that.  As a female, I have the right to express myself succinctly and tell it like it is; that a man cannot be a lesbian, they cannot be a female, and even if they have SRS, they cannot change their genetic code!  When a man tries to masquerade as a woman, and uses the software of this website to do it, in a manner that can PLACE ME AND OTHER WOMEN AT RISK OF SEXUAL ASSAULT OR WORSE, I will speak up every time.  I could care less what you think about the matter, as my personal safety is my business. 




thishereboi -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 5:59:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissLeslie

Oh hon, the discussion part is for you and other CMers to mull over.  I have been a researcher for years and years, and once I make a presentation, it is up to others to debate and discuss my writings.  I stand on my post TOTALLY, so, I have nothing to refute, or back off from.  It is as it is, and I am quite happy with what I wrote!


That's cool, personally I didn't make it past the first paragraph, but I love IronBear and Lockits posts, so I have to keep reading.




MissLeslie -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 6:00:21 PM)

VioletGray,

I know it must surely disturb you, that there are some actual females on this planet who find cross-dressers not the least bit to be a good thing, or any other person for that matter, who uses the software at Collar Me specifically to misrepresent themselves, which places myself and other genetic females at risk of sexual assault and maybe more.  When a safety issue exists, I will speak about it LOUD AND CLEAR. 

You state: "T
hose who list their gender is "Female" but mention that they are transgendered are not being misleading."

Honey, I have no idea what dictionary you are reading, but female means a GENETIC FEMALE.  Since males cannot be females, as they cannot change their genetic code, if one says that they ARE female, that is misrepresentation; AN OUTRIGHT LIE AND DECEITFUL BEHAVIOR.  If you misrepresent yourself, then you ARE being dishonest.  Sorry hon, that is something that you cannot overcome.




thishereboi -> RE: Misrepresentation By Crossdressers Concerning Their Gender And Sexuality (9/24/2009 6:00:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Stella! Stella... STELLA! Come here! Hehe... I forgot the hehe...



I love Stella [:)]




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