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RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 6:26:41 PM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

"24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh."
Genesis 32:24-31

I'm not even sure what relevance that has to the point in question here. I'm not a biblical scholar, by far. With that said though, you asked how a believer would explain the situation. Maybe its because you're an atheist and just can't identify with it, but people who believe do so because of faith. They don't question how a person could be saved "by God", only to be taken by that same God when giving thanks to that "save". They belief because they believe in the word of God, or the Lord. The passage Orion posted was God's word. That, for a believer would equate to....."Enough said." They don't need to explain it. They only need to believe.

It's not expected to be accepted by a non-believer. A non-believer wouldn't even question how God came into play at all. To a non-believer it would be an ironic twist of a believers faith. To a believer, it would be God's will.

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(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 41

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 6:33:22 PM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

"24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh."
Genesis 32:24-31

i AM FUCKING LOST11111111 LOST i TELL YA111111111
How does it come to be that the parable of god and man wrestling with their nature and the fact that god has powers bewildering to us humans (and this does not predate the jutsus of the asians, or Aesir) in any stretch of the imagination, and the fact that you can pin someone to the ground and end the argument and make them do your bidding by pressing that mid and inner thigh nerve.......got to do with this.

OH WOE, AM I TRULEU CAS TO DE OTTER DANKNESS?

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Post #: 42

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 7:09:50 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
when we simply deny out-of-hand the reality of anything that isn't "logical".

I'm wondering what you mean by this?

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Post #: 43

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 7:12:18 PM

tazzygirl

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You seem to be having a rough night, Master Ron... maybe you need something to relax you

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Post #: 44

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 7:32:44 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, thats kinda what the book of Job was about, if one remembers the fairytale.....had to do with a man being struck from walking under a tree and a branch fell on his head and killed him.......Job questioned it, and the old one pretty much said......Shit happens.

Oh, it's in there.

OneSpicyMeatball

Sure your talking about Job? Isn't that the one where Yahweh and the devil get together and purposely ruined Job's life over a bet? Wasn't what Yahweh said more like I'm shitting on you, don't you dare question it?

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 45

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 7:38:19 PM

mnottertail

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same job, yeah, you got the sunday school version of it there, it is a panorama of whys? not giving it the full treatment. but you got the surface covered.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 46

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 7:45:32 PM

DavanKael

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It is apparently indicative of my indulging in particularly dark aspects of my humor as, upon reading the title and the OP, I was smirking. This is a fabulous example of my personal problem with the idea of an interventionist God. Who knows...gravity sucks sometimes.
Davan

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Post #: 47

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 7:46:20 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I'm not even sure what relevance that has to the point in question here.

That's my point, throwing bible passages out there with no explanation of the point one is trying to make isn't really a dialogue. The passage I picked could be used as evidence that Yahweh isn't omnipotent, and someone could make an argument about how that explains things, but if I throw it out there without an explanation it's just nonsense.

(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 48

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 8:09:14 PM

Louve00

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Ok, this is the way I have understood things. You originally posted an article about a religious man who was trapped on a lift. It said he prayed to be saved and was. He went to the church to give thanks for that save. You then said, "I'm wondering how people who believe that theirs a benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient deity at work in the world around us explain this."

Instead of pointing it out in his own words, Orion posted a bible to the question which, in my opinion answered it, because it is the word of the Lord and the word of the Lord are what people believe. So, people believe it without explanation, but on faith that the Lord can bring good and the Lord can bring bad. "I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things."

It is the Lord's word, so no explanation is needed to a believer. It's taken as is because they have faith. It doesn't matter that it happened. It happened because it was God's will.

That the answer was posted from a quote in the bible. (more precisely a quote depicting how the Lord is capable of bringing both good and bad, giving possible reason as to how a believer could explain this death), doesn't discount the point of the answer, or that it was an answer.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 9/25/2009 8:11:00 PM >

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For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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Post #: 49

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 8:16:24 PM

OrionTheWolf

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The point is that the benevolent god portrayed by some religions, is only one side of the whole. I often have to point this out to some Christians that wants to praise God for everything good, and curse satan for everything bad. It just isn't so. The OP is based upon a false premise that is reputed by the very doctrine that it teaches.

That was the point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Well done Louve, you understood my point quite well.

I kinda thought the quote didn't fit the case being proposed. Personally, I've never been able to consider the God of the OT a particularly benevolent fellow. And for an omnipotent God, he seems to need too much help with the dirty work.

K.

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RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 8:24:27 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Sorry, some passages are self evident to some of us that are discussing a topic such as religion. Not all passages of course, but some. Not to mention the fact that Gos is not Omnipotent, because Free will allows for the choosing of our own fates. Just as he tested Abraham, instead of using supposed omniscence to just see into the future or Abrahams soul and determine the outcome.

I think most religious views, and atheist views when looking at the circumstance you present would say the same thing "Shit happens." . You want the TaoTe Ching passage of that one now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I'm not even sure what relevance that has to the point in question here.

That's my point, throwing bible passages out there with no explanation of the point one is trying to make isn't really a dialogue. The passage I picked could be used as evidence that Yahweh isn't omnipotent, and someone could make an argument about how that explains things, but if I throw it out there without an explanation it's just nonsense.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Post #: 51

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 8:30:14 PM

tazzygirl

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I agree, it all comes down to Free Will.. regardless of what happens... it was our decision, in most cases, to be where we end up (unless we are at the end of a gun/rifle/sargents boot... you get the point

)

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 52

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 8:46:30 PM

mcbride

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It’s a bit hard to believe, GotSteel, that your grasp of this is so shallow that you don’t already know the answer, the alternative being that you hadn’t noticed that people have died before.

We have free will in this world. Shit happens, or free will wouldn't matter.

Gunther Link, who prayed to a "benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient deity", would be with that God now, wouldn’t he?

Harder to believe, though, that your post was not in good faith, excuse the irony, and that you’re just that kind of person.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 53

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 8:52:04 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Read the Bible closely and you'll see

If that were true there wouldn't be 2,300 different kind's of Christianity. There are cases both for and against Yahweh being omnipotent that can be made by quoting the bible. What I've seen from reading the bible closely is mostly that it's a very self contradictory book. From your other post, I think we are agree that there isn't a supernatural being going around effecting events, but not everyone is of that opinion and I don't think reading the bible will change their minds. So you might want to explain your point a little more.

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RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 9:13:58 PM

AnimusRex

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OK, after chuckling at the irony of the news in question, and especially the replies- My snark capacity has been trumped so I will just play this straight.

The religious and irreligious both need to accept that death isn't a big deal for God;
Anyone who thinks that God is horrified of death or that He valiantly struggles to save us from it is seriously lacking in any sort of understanding of religion. And I aim that even at the "I was sick and I prayed and GOD saved me" folks.

His own beloved son prayed, and died; my mother prayed and died, my father didn't pray, and died, and I will pray and curse and blaspheme and pray some more, and die.

The only theological lesson I take away from this is- let the church ladies do the altar stuff. That herd could use a bit of thinning anyway.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 55

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 9:21:03 PM

Esinn

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This is a fast reply after a detailed review of the entire thread. I am shocked this conversation is still continuing. The question has already been answered. Many people have died in churches. Disasters often take place on 'holy days' or 'holy grounds'. Good people die and bad shit happens.

People who believe in god do so on faith. This is an emotional decision, not a logical one. It is believed that god has an ultimate unknown plan. How one knows about a plan which is unknown well shit, that is unknown to me. They also count the good and discount the bad. This is an important component to the survival of faith. 99 - 100% of the good things that happen the faithful thank their invisible being. 0 - 1% of the evil, sick, horrible or tragic things are never the fault of the invisible being.

Consider sports the winning team is frequently known to thank god. The losing team never blames god rather themselves. It is a very strange mechanism of faith. However, for faith to survive within the human mind it is a necessity.

< Message edited by Esinn -- 9/25/2009 9:22:25 PM >

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RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 9:43:35 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
It’s a bit hard to believe, GotSteel, that your grasp of this is so shallow that you don’t already know the answer, the alternative being that you hadn’t noticed that people have died before.

So is that just an ad hominem attack or is that an ad hominem and a strawman in the same sentence?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
We have free will in this world. Shit happens, or free will wouldn't matter.

What could the 1755 Lisbon earthquake possibly have to do with freewill? I'm fairly confident that those people's will wasn't to die horribly that day. I also don't see how not crushing Mr. Link with 860lbs of stone would have robbed him of his freewill.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Gunther Link, who prayed to a "benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient deity", would be with that God now, wouldn’t he?

Sadly no, Epicurus' Logical problem of evil seems to preclude a being from having all three of those qualities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Harder to believe, though, that your post was not in good faith, excuse the irony, and that you’re just that kind of person.

I'm certainly not the kind of person who's into faith, but I am legitimately curious to know how people justify that belief when reality seems to strongly contradict it.

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Post #: 57

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 10:05:56 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
The passage Orion posted was God's word. That, for a believer would equate to....."Enough said." They don't need to explain it. They only need to believe.

The existence of roughly 2,300 different kinds of Christianity is evidence that it's not quite that simple, it's surprising how differently people interpret bible quotes. When I read that passage what I get out of it is that Yahweh isn't good. I don't think that's a terribly popular position among theists, so I'd like to hear what he believes.

(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 58

RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 10:11:46 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

The religious and irreligious both need to accept that death isn't a big deal for God;
Anyone who thinks that God is horrified of death or that He valiantly struggles to save us from it is seriously lacking in any sort of understanding of religion. And I aim that even at the "I was sick and I prayed and GOD saved me" folks.

His own beloved son prayed, and died; my mother prayed and died, my father didn't pray, and died, and I will pray and curse and blaspheme and pray some more, and die.

Hmmm? Prayer seems to be ineffective, irrational and wasteful then - why bother? Obviously it failed for your mother. You know it will fail you... But you will try? Come on man.

How about this god exists only in the mind of the theist, not as an external being. That is the reason prayer never works - god does not exist. god told us directly multiple times in the bible prayer was absolutely effective in non ambiguous terms yet it never seems to work.

* I am curious how do you know gods thoughts on death? Did you have coffee and crumpets with him?

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RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/25/2009 10:28:26 PM

mcbride

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I notice that sometimes around here, ad hominem is Latin for “he answered my question and now what do I do but obfuscate?”

Lisbon having an earthquake, as you already know, is part of “shit happens”. Someone can go into a church, rob a liquor store, or hang off a rock, and either way, there may be unintended consequences. That’s part, as I said, and others said, of a world where free will rules.

You think an omnipotent and omniscient diety is restricted by Epicurus' logical problem of evil? Seriously? And do we really have to get into repeating the obvious and long-standing answers about God’s intentions for evil?

You asked a theological question, in good faith, I’m sure, and you got the (really obvious) theological answer, which I notice you don’t address. You haven’t said why you think reality seems to contradict Gunther’s faith, but I’m not interesting in keeping your thread alive for you just so we can hear ourselves talk.

And I’m still having some trouble believing that a smart fella like you didn’t already know that basic bit of theology about poor Gunther.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 60

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