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Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/24/2009 8:02:04 PM   
Relax79


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/19/2008
Status: offline 		Hello,

Owning a slave can be difficult in some countries. The question is what kind of contracts have you made with your slave to avoid legal problems.

And in case the slave accuse you of mistreating them, what can be done towards this.

Relax
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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/24/2009 8:22:21 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
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quote:

avoid legal problems


There are no private contracts you can make that negate the provisions of law, at least in the Western world. As to a slave accusing you of maltreatment, that is a question best asked of an attourney. There is generally no provision in the law for consensual maltreatment, so the simple answer to your second question is: nothing.

(in reply to Relax79)
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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/24/2009 8:28:52 PM   
MichiganHeadmast


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline 		The legal consequences of ACTUALLY owning a slave would be prosecution and prison in most jurisdictions.  Those "slave contracts" many of us hold are absolutely unenforceable anywhere in the world should our "slave" reneg.  None of us here actually owns anybody except to the extent the person voluntarily submits.

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/24/2009 9:12:08 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Relax79

Hello,

Owning a slave can be difficult in some countries. The question is what kind of contracts have you made with your slave to avoid legal problems.

Slavery is illegal in every country in the world.  Therefore, no contract covering it will be valid. 
quote:



And in case the slave accuse you of mistreating them, what can be done towards this.



You make sure that you do not mistreat them.  Nothing illegal at least!


_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/24/2009 9:16:43 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		You cannot make legal contracts about illegal things. This is like drawing up a legal delivery document for drug running. Can't be done.

Assault is illegal, so even if you have a relationship contract, if the slave charges you with assault, that contract has no legal standing. It might, however, be useful as evidence, but don't count on it.

Master Fire


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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/24/2009 9:44:12 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Owning a slave can be difficult in some countries. The question is what kind of contracts have you made with your slave to avoid legal problems.
None  are needed since none have any legal validity, other than as some sort of employment contract.

quote:

And in case the slave accuse you of mistreating them, what can be done towards this.
Sweet fuck all.


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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/24/2009 10:23:37 PM   
HK47


Posts: 16
Joined: 3/12/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Owning a slave can be difficult in some countries. The question is what kind of contracts have you made with your slave to avoid legal problems.

The contracts are not legal. Guidelines, yes, but assuming the contract is drawn up, and both parties keep copies they may well fall into the category called evidence.  In depth answers can be found here http://tinyurl.com/ybvqxed

quote:

And in case the slave accuse you of mistreating them, what can be done towards this.

Treat them very well.


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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/24/2009 11:40:37 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Relax79

Hello,

Owning a slave can be difficult in some countries. The question is what kind of contracts have you made with your slave to avoid legal problems.

And in case the slave accuse you of mistreating them, what can be done towards this.

Relax



I really do wish we could carve the word "contract" out the collective lexicon here and be done with it. Call it an "agreement", "treatise" or "covenant" instead, and know it is at best merely evidence of an arrangement between two parties.

Obviously we do not legally own people. While we may "own" them in more abstract (though just as, if not more important) ways, legal ownership of another person is not possible.

As for counteracting the abuse claim, the most critical thing one can do is choose the person that is going to be his or her consensual slave wisely. Considering such things as their disposition, trustworthiness and track record are so very vital. In short, if you tolerate a person who has caused you doubt anywhere in those three considerations, you could be setting yourself up for trouble later on.

Socializing and interacting with others in "the lifestyle" regularly increases transparency and helps to reduce the validity of the claim that she tripped and fell and found herself in an M/s relationship without her consent. Supporting and engaging social networks and organizations that diffuse knowledge about D/s relationships to the general public is preemptive wisdom that never hurts.

Aside of plain old common sense, there are other little cantrips—some harmless and others a little evil—one can employ that offer more insurance, but I'm leery of offering up a detailed menu for intellectually lazy blobs to borrow from and get in trouble with. Some things are better left to be discovered by one's own mettle and imagination. Darwin's arena sometimes has purpose.


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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 5:48:47 AM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		The above discussion tends to assume a bargain of giving one thing in consideration for getting another thing. That is the essence of Western common law of contract. Terms such as contract, agreement, understanding, exchange, or covenant all imply a contract with legal implications.

One way a written document of surrender is NOT incriminating is when it is expressed as subjective and unconditional feeling -- a declaration of the personal power to exercise self will and freely choose to share aspects of one's self with another: DECLARATION OF INTENT. This can manifest in several ways, such as "declaration of intent to delegate authority" or "power of attorney" or "declaration of intent/desire to serve."

A key to legally (Western common law jurisdiction) sharing a control/surrender dynamic is that it must not be based on an exchange or bargain of consideration (term used in the legal not emotional context), and it must not waive ongoing free choice (i.e., no element of oppression, abuse, coercion, bargain, exchange, consideration). It must reflect ongoing informed consent which has no condition precedent or other contingency. That is, it must not reflect the past or project into the future, but simply state a present desire or intent in the moment based on a high degree of awareness, preference, and personal feeling.

A "master" who is so insecure that he needs a promise of future performance probably does not deserve the declaration in the first place. It is not the surrendered who must promise performance, it is the controller who by example must inspire the confidence for their partner to choose surrender. Trust is more often misplaced than it is breached.

< Message edited by aldompdx -- 9/25/2009 6:05:41 AM >

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 5:52:37 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Relax79

Hello,

Owning a slave can be difficult in some countries. The question is what kind of contracts have you made with your slave to avoid legal problems.

And in case the slave accuse you of mistreating them, what can be done towards this.

Relax



Then choose carefully. a slave would not accuse you of this.... unless you actually did. and some slaves wouldnt even if you did. a sub would, possibly. someone with you for the kink probably would when it was no longer fun to play "slave".

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 9:32:37 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

The above discussion tends to assume a bargain of giving one thing in consideration for getting another thing. That is the essence of Western common law of contract. Terms such as contract, agreement, understanding, exchange, or covenant all imply a contract with legal implications.


For terms such as agreement and covenant, I do not fully agree with this statement. Agreement, being a very general word, needn't imply legal jurisdiction, merely present harmony in accordance with opinion or feeling, and this expressed accordance can (and should) articulate that it is not to be seen as a legal document. As for covenant, there are legal and ecclesiastical references to this term, as well as an agreement (usually formal) between two or more persons to do or not do something specified. Again, the agreement therein can easily specify the legality of the document or lack thereof. Anyone familiar with the prerequisites of legal writing (not to mention reading comprehension) would easily note the difference.



quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
One way a written document of surrender is NOT incriminating is when it is expressed as subjective and unconditional feeling -- a declaration of the personal power to exercise self will and freely choose to share aspects of one's self with another: DECLARATION OF INTENT. This can manifest in several ways, such as "declaration of intent to delegate authority" or "power of attorney" or "declaration of intent/desire to serve."

A key to legally (Western common law jurisdiction) sharing a control/surrender dynamic is that it must not be based on an exchange or bargain of consideration (term used in the legal not emotional context), and it must not waive ongoing free choice (i.e., no element of oppression, abuse, coercion, bargain, exchange, consideration). It must reflect ongoing informed consent which has no condition precedent or other contingency. That is, it must not reflect the past or project into the future, but simply state a present desire or intent in the moment based on a high degree of awareness, preference, and personal feeling.


This is good advice if you want to play the legal game, but as you yourself flesh out above, said documents only have so much elasticity, and it is for this reason my usual suggestion where M/s is concerned—since it does arguably involve oppression, "abuse", coercion etc.—is never to get involved in the game at all unless you have a compelling reason to. Reason being that such documents, having clear legal interface, can be challenged legally for their validity and breadth by analyzing their parlance / structure and contrasting against evidence. Let's be direct here: a Declaration of Intent to subject oneself (in present state) to slavery or slave-like conditions with (even consensual) beatings and the revocation of civil rights would be just as incriminating, if not considered invalid, even if one could somehow make these documents dance even close to legitimately covering what we do. After all, let's face it, if it all gets to this point, nine out of ten times—in addition to the "victim's" words that will likely center around claims of abuse, intimidation, coercion and "he made me sign that"—there will likely be very damning evidence to support it all: bruises, welts, cuts, various witness testimonies, physical evidence in the form of restraints and torture implements, financial records, photos, movies, texts, phone records, voice messages, emails and so on that will paint a very explicit picture of the dynamics involved.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
A "master" who is so insecure that he needs a promise of future performance probably does not deserve the declaration in the first place.


I generally agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but I overall reject the notion that writing a general agreement describing the authority structure is the sign of insecurity. Putting things in black and white is a good way for two parties to articulate their desires and intents, not to mention describe what it is they both expect out of the relationship. The problem comes in when pseudo-legal assertions are employed, or there is no entry in the agreement / treatise that makes it clear the document was not written with legal intent.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
It is not the surrendered who must promise performance, it is the controller who by example must inspire the confidence for their partner to choose surrender.


I would say it is both, actually.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
Trust is more often misplaced than it is breached.


Well said.

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 11:20:05 AM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		M.E.,

Firstly, my comment was not directed specifically to you. The way this website works is to simply append "in reply to..." every last post.

Secondly, your concurrence is irrelevant. All that matters in your jurisdiction is New Hampshire state law. Your perspective on the law of your state simply makes no difference. The law is the law, the way it exists. It is remarkable how many "dominant" labeled people on this website seem to think that their opinion or belief trumps the law of the jurisdiction in which they freely choose to abide.

As a matter of law, any agreement in which consideration is promised constitutes a contract. In your jurisdiction, there even exists a statute for breach of contract to marry (RSA 508:11). So, just how many people in NH reduce a marriage proposal to a written record filed with the county clerk? Obviously, a contract in NH reaches the substance of an agreement, and is not limited to mere formalities of reduction to writing and filing.

Thirdly, an intent to act is not acquiesence to the actions of another. One cannot declare on personal knowledge the intent of another to act.

Fourthly, people who address legal issues ought to have some experience with and knowledge of the law.

Perhaps my mistake is that I actually assumed this thread was a genuine discussion among informed people, not just a comedy routine for people to vent their feelings as if they lived on the planet Gor and were subject only to Gorian law.

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 11:43:26 AM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
Perhaps my mistake is that I actually assumed this thread was a genuine discussion among informed people, not just a comedy routine for people to vent their feelings as if they lived on the planet Gor and were subject only to Gorian law.


And here I was going to be a smart ass and state that a written slave contract (signed by the slave) is absolutely necessary if you intend the relationship to last longer than a year in order to satisfy the statute of frauds.

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 1:05:06 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

M.E.,

Firstly, my comment was not directed specifically to you. The way this website works is to simply append "in reply to..." every last post.


This is neither here nor there, but you're technically not correct; you can choose to respond to the OP or any individual commenter in these forums. Regardless, you chose to preamble your contribution with "the above discussion tends to assume", which included all of us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
It is remarkable how many "dominant" labeled people on this website seem to think that their opinion or belief trumps the law of the jurisdiction in which they freely choose to abide.


I know I never made such a claim. My position, again, is that we should not attempt to play law in what we're doing, or think that any document is iron clad in face of the 13th Amendment where this matter is concerned. If so, organizations centered around power exchange would no doubt be disseminating the "legal antidote" to the M/s quandary in mass scale. Such an item or overall recipe has yet to surface. If you have it, please attach a link; we're all eyes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
As a matter of law, any agreement in which consideration is promised constitutes a contract.


I'm afraid it's not that easy. The parties must have capacity to make the binding contract and the nature of the binding contract must not be illegal.

This is why so many so-called "contracts" have been dismissed as such in court, and instead used as evidence in the negative.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
Thirdly, an intent to act is not...


The problem is these intents to act were not designed to address and support slavery, which by definition is illegal. And you, presumably so well versed in law, should also consider that these cases inevitably boil down to the Amendments, Federal Law, and jurisdictional law on domestic abuse and assault.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
Fourthly, people who address legal issues ought to have some experience with and knowledge of the law.


Thus far, I must admit it seems you know enough to be dangerous, despite your good writing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx
Perhaps my mistake is that I actually assumed this thread was a genuine discussion among informed people, not just a comedy routine for people to vent their feelings as if they lived on the planet Gor and were subject only to Gorian law.


I'll keep from getting personal here, as it appears you are offended enough to be insulting—and I'll let that speak for itself.

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 1:44:03 PM   
Acer49


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Joined: 8/7/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Relax79

Hello,

Owning a slave can be difficult in some countries. The question is what kind of contracts have you made with your slave to avoid legal problems.

And in case the slave accuse you of mistreating them, what can be done towards this.

Relax



I can not speak for the rest of the world but here in the US, slavery is not legal. so any contracts that involve an illigal activity are null and void.
If you are accused of misconduct, then I'd have a good lawyer. Bear in mind, lifestyle or not, submissive's consent or not. Stiking someone is illiegal, that is black letter law.

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 3:41:34 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49

I can not speak for the rest of the world but here in the US, slavery is not legal. so any contracts that involve an illigal activity are null and void.
If you are accused of misconduct, then I'd have a good lawyer. Bear in mind, lifestyle or not, submissive's consent or not. Stiking someone is illiegal, that is black letter law.


Agreed. A declaration of intent to serve an unlawful purpose or carry out an unlawful endeavor is likewise null and void.

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 3:47:45 PM   
DePubed


Posts: 71
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		If a man punches another man, it is illegal and 'assault' and 'battery'. YET, it IS legal if they do it as professional boxers. In professional boxing, not only is it a legal 'contact sport' but the entire goal of boxing is to 'knock out unconscious' the other guy. So, while punching is illegal, a sports contract CAN make it legal for you with another person.

My opinion is that non one should ever presume that their activity is always legal or always illegal; keep the boxing analogy in mind. For example, while it is LEGAL for two men to punch each other in face in a boxing ring, it would be ILLEGAL for the same two men to punch each other in alocker room before the boxing match or in the parking lot afterwards. (!)

'slavery' situations need to be studied as to what the activities are and how even the illegal ones can be re-worded to be legal.

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 3:57:48 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DePubed

If a man punches another man, it is illegal and 'assault' and 'battery'. YET, it IS legal if they do it as professional boxers. In professional boxing, not only is it a legal 'contact sport' but the entire goal of boxing is to 'knock out unconscious' the other guy. So, while punching is illegal, a sports contract CAN make it legal for you with another person.

My opinion is that non one should ever presume that their activity is always legal or always illegal; keep the boxing analogy in mind. For example, while it is LEGAL for two men to punch each other in face in a boxing ring, it would be ILLEGAL for the same two men to punch each other in alocker room before the boxing match or in the parking lot afterwards. (!)

'slavery' situations need to be studied as to what the activities are and how even the illegal ones can be re-worded to be legal.


Oh, Justice, you have a fool for a lawyer!!!!

Here for an example is a re-worded slave contract which is now legal:

*******
The whale is undoubably one of the largest mammals alive today.
*******

Even the most untutored of souls could make a solid defense for that.

Ron

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 4:11:45 PM   
ElaineSubmits


Posts: 49
Joined: 10/30/2005
Status: offline 		"Owning a slave" is essentially a fantasy, a kind of mutually agreed real life role playing game. The law does not recognize that such a thing is possible, therefore there are no legal consequences. If someone crosses the line between fantasy and reality and acts as if she or he really does own a slave, the legal consequences could be profound. Punishments for rape, false imprisonment, assault and similar crimes are often very severe. Consent is always revocable. Men have been convicted of rape when they failed to terminate sexual activity immediately upon request, even after the woman had initially consented. ("No means no." It really is that simple.) Reliance on "contracts" or other evidence of consent is highly misguided, to say the least. (Actually, "contract" is a misnomer here anyway. Such agreements would almost always fail to meet several of the basic legal requirements for a contract, especially consideration.) As others have pointed out, the only real safeguard is to be sure everyone involved stays happy.

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RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave - 9/25/2009 4:14:07 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits

"Owning a slave" is essentially a fantasy, a kind of mutually agreed real life role playing game. The law does not recognize that such a thing is possible, therefore there are no legal consequences. If someone crosses the line between fantasy and reality and acts as if she or he really does own a slave, the legal consequences could be profound. Punishments for rape, false imprisonment, assault and similar crimes are often very severe. Consent is always revocable. Men have been convicted of rape when they failed to terminate sexual activity immediately upon request, even after the woman had initially consented. ("No means no." It really is that simple.) Reliance on "contracts" or other evidence of consent is highly misguided, to say the least. (Actually, "contract" is a misnomer here anyway. Such agreements would almost always fail to meet several of the basic legal requirements for a contract, especially consideration.) As others have pointed out, the only real safeguard is to be sure everyone involved stays happy.


good argumentation, let's get our premises to agree though.

LOL,
Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/25/2009 4:15:27 PM >

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