RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez?

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Termyn8or -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 12:57:28 AM)
Bull, you and I are almost diametrically opposed on this issue. However I know how to keep it decent I think ( and hope ). I want to maintain respect because I think you, like me, would die for our rights, this country, our loved ones and so forth. There are many who would not. However you support this form of interventionism practiced in the last several decades, so I assume that somehow "they" convinced you that this was the right thing to do. Well I differ. To start, the founding Fathers of this nation warned against these foreign entanglements, but their words have not been heeded. For example China for years bothered nobody, was considered a threat but little was known. We were somewhat friendly neighbors, just suspicious of one another and minding our Ps and Qs. Tianemen square should never have hit our TV screens. It is simply none of our business. Am I saying to be ignorant of what is going on around us ? hell no. Of course one has to be aware of one's surroundings, and as an entity, a nation is no different. But the job is to protect the country, not to reform the whole world. We are only a target because of what we have done. If we stuck to the principles as layed forth in the beginning, most of our enemies would not even be aware of our existence. I truly believe that you think your way is the best, and that this interventionist policy of this government is a good thing, but in that, is precisely where I think you've been misled. As have many. Also IIRC we still buy some of our oil from Venezuela, so what are we doing ? Shaking the Man's hand with our right as our left is trying to stab him in the back ? Is this the most desirable representation that we, as a People, can have ? For one, no Venezuelan has ever done anything wrong to me, and as far as I can tell to the US or anyone, and that includes Chavez. They are after Chavez because he wouldn't agree to their proposed backdoor deals that wreck a fucking country sure as shit. He won't play ball with these snakes. That is their fucking problem, and the snakes' solution is to convince people that he is going to nuke the US and soon. Same old typical story. And you fall for it again and again. (collectively) They say this is a threat and that is a threat, and then fail to substantiate it. Like Vietnam and Korea, they were never a threat. They did mine a hell of alot of phosphorous out of Nam though. But if you take a look around, in most cases we are the aggressor. Don't even mention 911, that was the wrong country. What if someone bombed us because bumfukt Egypt attacked them ? Would you consider that a valid excuse ? So now after we bombed Afghanistan back into the stone age after Russia did it, we are going to do it again. Does that make any sense ? It doesn't to me. If you want a terrorism free world, the thing to do is to not piss people off. You even utterly destroy the terrorists' home country all you do is put them into a state of diaspora (sp), like the Jews. And after so many years like that look what they have put together. Like a reverse regroup or something. You keep trying to kill an enemy and keep failing the enemy will get stronger, smarter and faster. In other words, we should have just been happy to get along with the world and be happy instead of trying to run the fucking whole thing. I will agree that in some cases action must be taken, but that is because we caused the situation. I also agree that we could not with any degree of sanity just back out of the game right now. It is far too late for that. But if People would've held to the principles of the founding Fathers of this country, we would never be in this predicament. True patriots ? Let me not name a few. Those secrectaries of the treasury that got fired by the President for refusing to transfer our real money to foreign banks. I remember the one who did, Roger B. Taney, also famous for the Dred Scott decision. But what of their names, those who got fired for actually doing their job, which was to protect this country's riches. Does anyone know their names ? In life, you might have a Master tell a slave girl to "BRING ME MY WINE, WENCH", but a true leader does not always show his colors. He does not want to limit those he leads, he wants them to learn and grow and simply goes away, allowing things to happen as they do. Have they instilled a strong fear in you that if left unchecked, the world would unite against us and take what is ours ? That is what it really boils down to, nothing more, and like most fears, if the fear sustains it is not real. When fear is real something happens. We are the only ones pretty much making anything happen. Now imagine a world in which we had never pissed anyone off. It would be so much better, but then some people must learn the hard way. At our cost. Oh, and Chavez ? We already got rid of him once, but the People of that country rose up and reinstated him. And they keep electing him. They also said at some point the election of a racist to the Austrian Parliment was a "Slap in the face to democracy". Do you think I am going to believe that an election can be so rigged by people who are so universally hated ? Am I to believe that the supporters of Chavez years ago did not have the right to support Chavez because our regime doesn't like him ? Sometimes one needs to take step back and thin about what they have seen. A picture is worth a thousand words ? How long does it take to fully digest a thousand words in the mind ? Those who seek to manipulate want that instant knee jerk reaction, and I for one am sorry to disappoint them. Think of it this way, just what has Chavez done to us ? And remember, only include things before we tried to overthrow him. If you can really look at things objectively, he has every right to be pissed at us, not the other way around. Give this a second thought, give it ALL a second thought. Just what are we doing ? T

Arpig -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 2:05:51 AM)
quote: Arpig, you get your own "human Rights" up there in Canada! Umm Popeye, it was FatDomDaddy who mentioned human rights, not me. I said there wasn't a lot that could be done about Chavez.

xBullx -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 6:51:52 AM)
Hey there Termyn8or, I had to go back and read my own posts to see why you thought your position was so much different than mine. You didn't say much I wasn't considering. Don’t allow the few posters that were intent on disrupting or distracting the issue, cloud my intent. I never suggested CIA interference or any sort of overthrow; I certainly wasn’t suggesting a military attack. But what I did say was that his wealth comes from oil and we do have ways to reduce his income substantially. Both directly and indirectly, yes he sells oil to us and in fact owns oil production facilities as well as distributorships here in the good ole’ USA. We have ways to insure our own economic security and to cripple the effect these “rouge” nations have on our economy. Come on, while many like to rant about the housing markets causing this recession, it was oil prices that initially fucked up most everyone’s ability pay their bills. Iran can run up oil prices by threatening Israel and giving the suggestion of conflict in the straights. And while it isn't the case, yet; would a Nuke program for Chavez be just as tangible. None of these smaller countries want war with us; most aren’t so stupid as to think they would survive. But they can influence the oil markets with crap tactics and threats. It's always about the money, period. I wasn't at any point in this thread implying a direct action against anyone. I was a long time warrior for this nation, and my sons still are. I assure you that armed aggression is my last choice; I like big Thanksgiving dinners. But we have ways within our means to affect Chavez much more effectively than he does us, and it doesn’t take military involvement. Don't you think that oil producing nations would side with us just to keep us from overproducing oil? Lastly, I don't care what any other country on this planet is doing so long as they don't affect us adversely. I also like to take a moment before flying off the handle to evaluate each situation for what it is. Yes there is the old adage that, "a good decision made in time is always better than the best decision made too late. But I believe we have time to rectify any issues this noisy little fellow can create if we put our heads together now, rather than later. It's like football. You take a week to practice, study the opponent and prepare and then on game day you use his strengths to your advantage and exploit his weakness. Chavez comes here (to the U.S.) and plays the T.O. card by running his mouth and screaming for attention. So I am left to assume he wants to matchup against us. So I was asking you posters out there your opinions on a game plan. I don’t see conflict as the way, in fact the threat stance is what they are hoping for, and that destabilizes the world markets, as well as drives up oil prices. I also could give two lumps of shit if he buys gobs of Russian weapons, apart from the AK; most of their weapons are junk and easily negated. I’m just tired of Putin and Washington using these smaller Nation States to push their chess pieces into. Thanks for your comments they were insightful and helpful. But I lean towards Libertarianism so you don’t seem to be thinking much differently than I.

xBullx -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 6:54:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 People shouldn't be concerned with this "Chavez" guy anyway. Why, oil? Brazil's new find is bigger than all the oil in Saudi Arabia. It's ENOURMOUS! Go into the business sites and read about it. The oil cos are really going to have to struggle to keep gasoline above $2 a gallon. Thanks Popeye, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about...

FatDomDaddy -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 7:18:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol How is Chavez any of your business? Are not Human Rights everyone's business??? In light of previous US policy in America, you have got to be kidding us. Every nation, mine included, has turned a blind eye to human rights when said rights contradict foreign policy. What the hell does US Policy have have to do with it??? Chevez has changed the election laws and voting system virtually assuring he will remain in power for life. He has closed radio and TV stations who's editorial content dissented from him and he has limited the free speech and private property rights of his citizens. You either support him and these policies or you do not. The Govenment of the United States view should have no bearing.

Sanity -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 8:29:55 AM)
We should have learned our lesson on tin horn dictators back in World War II. If you don't nip them in the bud they can lead to real trouble. Venezuela, which supposedly "has a lot of uranium" is working with Iran and Russia to develop their uranium reserves "for medicinal purposes": http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_iran http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090925/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_iran Iran, which has vowed to destroy Israel and is known to be working on building nukes, is now test firing short range missiles. Think some could end up in Venezuela? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran The Obama administration is concerned that billions of dollars worth of arms purchased by Venezuela may end up in the hands of drug cartels and other violent fringe groups: http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE58E60S20090915 Chavez reportedly supports the leftist rebel group FARC which is trying to overthrow the government of Columbia, and which has been trying to sell uranium on the black market: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8V74K981&show_article=1 Chavez is hosting Russian bombers, buying Chinese fighter jets: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080910172648.o0xedzl3&show_article=1 http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080921230912.0dszz961&show_article=1 The problem isn't just Chavez and Venezuela, its how Chavez is working with Iran and other extremists and threatens to destabilize Central and South America, and that Iran may well be working with Islamic extremists - so its a very tangled web. Therefore the idea that we should just sit and watch while every tin horn dictator on the planet get their hands on uranium for dirty bombs or even nuclear warheads and missile technology is absolutely ludicrous. Again, we've learned our lessons already, or we should have. I'm not suggesting that we need to go to war today, but we should be taking all the steps necessary to insure future security.

Arpig -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 8:59:26 AM)
Hmmm...a hardline Islamic fundamentalist in bed with a far left socialist dictator, brought together by an old KGB hand....la plus ça change and all that, eh?

Sanity -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 9:55:13 AM)
Set your sights a little higher.There are shadows of WW II appearing here, more than shadows of Iraq. quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Hmmm...a hardline Islamic fundamentalist in bed with a far left socialist dictator, brought together by an old KGB hand....la plus ça change and all that, eh?

Kirata -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 10:06:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Hmmm...a hardline Islamic fundamentalist in bed with a far left socialist dictator, brought together by an old KGB hand....la plus ça change and all that, eh? Yeah really. You'd think they should be odd bed-fellows. Kinda makes ya marvel at all the different costumes a lust for power will wear to fool people. K.

Sanity -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 10:12:04 AM)
That raises an interesting point. There are those who have tried to claim that Islamic fundamentalists absolutely will not work with secularists. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Hmmm...a hardline Islamic fundamentalist in bed with a far left socialist dictator, brought together by an old KGB hand....la plus ça change and all that, eh? Yeah really. You'd think they should be odd bed-fellows. Kinda makes ya marvel at all the different costumes a lust for power will wear to fool people. K.

Politesub53 -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 10:43:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol How is Chavez any of your business? Are not Human Rights everyone's business??? In light of previous US policy in America, you have got to be kidding us. Every nation, mine included, has turned a blind eye to human rights when said rights contradict foreign policy. What the hell does US Policy have have to do with it??? Chevez has changed the election laws and voting system virtually assuring he will remain in power for life. He has closed radio and TV stations who's editorial content dissented from him and he has limited the free speech and private property rights of his citizens. You either support him and these policies or you do not. The Govenment of the United States view should have no bearing. Firstly not just US foreign policy, as I say all nations, mine included ( You even quoted it ). I am simply pointing out all nations have supported unsavoury foreign regimes at some stage. I am sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but I have to say it offends mine as well. You made the statement "Are not human rights everbody`s business" I guess in short, it depends who your friends are. Its interesting that you see human rights as everbody`s business, but not health care.

Politesub53 -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 11:11:44 AM)
Bull, to be fair, your op wasnt exactly clear as to what you were suggesting. I admit I thought you were talking about "regime change" of some type or another and apologise if I have got it wrong. At present Venezuela spends very little of its GDP on military hardware. I dont think that even with Iran, the two countries could hold the US to ransom over oil. Maybe the biggest threat oil-wise comes from your own auto industries and the lack of more efficent/smaller engines. I doubt there is any hope at present at being able to obtain your own oil reseveres and keep prices down. Since the US are not selling arms to Chavez it is inevitable he will buy where he can. At present I see a far greater threat from North Korea ( exporting nuclear technology ) and maybe Iran, as the regime there seem determined to push the envelope, despite offers of help from the EU.

xBullx -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 12:12:34 PM)
I have a habit of being cryptic, Kitten has pointed it out before, I have my reasons, but all the same, I believe some worthwhile discussion is evolving. I sure as hell see no debate between us. I have been annoyed by the Auto industry for decades. But until Washington protectionism and coruption is but in the ass we are in trouble. I own big trucks, I believe you call them lorries or something to that effect. In the US at the protest of the engine makers the EPA set in place drop dead dates where the manufactures of engines had to meet very stiff guidelines or face very sizeable penalties. Starting 1 Jan 2010 about all that will come out of the tailpipes of big trucks is water vapor. I say that a damn good things and it was fair regulation that all parties were expected to meet. Now while that's a carbon issue and not a MPG or KPG issue, it shows what proper and balanced industrial regs can do. As for Hugo, I prefer to start public debate on his action and probable intentions now, before he is an Iran or N. Korea. For it does appear that he is teaming up with our worries of today. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Bull, to be fair, your op wasnt exactly clear as to what you were suggesting. I admit I thought you were talking about "regime change" of some type or another and apologise if I have got it wrong. At present Venezuela spends very little of its GDP on military hardware. I dont think that even with Iran, the two countries could hold the US to ransom over oil. Maybe the biggest threat oil-wise comes from your own auto industries and the lack of more efficent/smaller engines. I doubt there is any hope at present at being able to obtain your own oil reseveres and keep prices down. Since the US are not selling arms to Chavez it is inevitable he will buy where he can. At present I see a far greater threat from North Korea ( exporting nuclear technology ) and maybe Iran, as the regime there seem determined to push the envelope, despite offers of help from the EU.

AnimusRex -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 12:31:21 PM)
Fast reply- Why does every foreign issue boil down to "how do we destroy them?" Specifically, why is our only foreign policy brute force coercion and bullying? Hasn't it been painfully obvious that that tactic has only lead to our being weaker, not stronger? The greatest success in foreign policy comes from making allies and friends and partners, but instead the policy for the past 8 years has been to strut around the world like the schoolyard bully and make as many enemies as we can. So today we are weaker and more isolated than we have ever been, and trapped in an endless cycle of wars, and every month or so a new "enemy" is discovered. This is playing like a bad parody of 1984, where the State was locked in a perpetual war with a demonized enemy. Yesterday it was Osama, then Saddam, then Iran, now Chavez and Putin and tomorrow it will be Syria, and Pakistan and North Korea and an endless roll call of foreign leaders that somehow pose an existential threat to us. Hasn't anyone asked by Iran is suddenly so bold? Why did they suddenly, say around 2004 start becoming more aggressive and in-your-face with their posture? Hint- for years they were stifled by a cold war with Saddam Hussein, and nearly lost a war with him. Were it not for the stupidity of the Iraq war, Iran would likely still be quiet and timid. The Iraq war has weakened us, fighting a war that has no purpose except to fight an enemy that didn't exist before we invaded. Chaves NEEDS a foreign enemy who asks ominously "how long will we tolerate Chavez?" He rallies his power base every time an American saber is rattled. This is NOT "strength' this is the stupidity of the little guy at the bar who blusters his way into a fight just to prove his manhood.

Arpig -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/27/2009 6:15:58 PM)
quote: That raises an interesting point. There are those who have tried to claim that Islamic fundamentalists absolutely will not work with secularists. Well seeing as the Saudis (as hardline an Islamist bunch as exist) are in bed with the US, and the Iranians (also as hardline a bunch of islamists...they just disagree on the details of what is TWUE Islam) is now cozying up with anybody who looks to oppose the US...well they claerly don't give a fuck who they are in bed with...much like a boy in high school.

Termyn8or -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/28/2009 12:49:35 AM)
FR. Interesting. Interesting responses and points of view of course, but I have heard no rebuttal to my statement the we caused most of this fucking mess. I have to agree, that now there is no graceful way to bow out. But to start another bunch of bombings, and to start shit with yet another country I see as being far from the correct course of action. Note that Venezuela is alot closer by the way. Now considering our actions for example in the middle east. If anyone out there can think objectively, that is to see the other side, leader of other countries should be doing everything they can to defend themselves - against us !. Put yourself in their position, you don't want to play ball with our suits, and these suits will not take no for an answer, to the point of devastating a country to make their power known, to dominate. It is almost a game for them, because it is not their children who must fight and die. So they play it as we would play a game of risk or monopoly. They probably don't even put the heart into it that my family used to put into a game of auction freezout pinochle. (look that up, I think it is a great game) My opinion is that anyone who supports this shit has played right into their hands. Yes I know we can't just leave and forget about it, but to start more shit at this stage of the the game is sheer lunacy. I was being facetious when I said something about half the world hating us. But it is true, even in Europe, and places we think are friendly. Just buying the government does not affect the will and desire of the peoples, and they are not happy. Some are not happier than others of course. We don't even know for sure how many. So what's the deal, we going to keep this shit up until they all hate us ? Just to be sure or what. And if you support burning Women children houses, and bombing hospitals and churches to stabilize gasoline prices, count me out. This is not what my tax dollars are for, not that I pay anyway anymore. Let them come, I got plenty of defense, I simply refuse. You get nothing for the war machine, put me in jail and you get the same amount from me. Take it or leave it. So far they have chosen to leave it. I will not support a regime such as this, I will go to prison if necessary and even die if I can do a spot of good for my countrymen. I do not speak from a position of power, I do not weild a sword nor a bomb, all I have is common sense. In the life of a boychild, he might have a time in life he makes many enemies. But there comes a time to grow up, to learn that everything is not going to go his way and to stop making enemies. We are young as a nation, and perhaps as that entity we are quite immature. Our antics across the globe certainly do indicate just that. I just have a hard time seeing how people we elect, people who are supposed to know how to handle these things were not endowed with the common sense bestowed on a fucking ear of corn. Look buddy, I can say this much. If you are in a room with 100 people and 99 of them hate you, it is time to look at you not them. Tolerate Chavez ? If I were President I would invite him to dinner. I am serious. He is nearby, has oil, all that as well as a very strong popular base of support. Hell yes, I would try to improve relations. I would consider that my job. Oh, and BTW, those with specific reports about Chavez manipulating the media, he denied a license to a TV station that refused to report the news during an invasion. This is not operating in the public interest and that clause is right there in any TV station's FCC license right here in the good ole USA. The government can shut down any station at will. What the people did in the streets, well they did it. It could happen here. Fights on the way to the voting booth and so forth, it probably has happened here more than once. Just when they put that spin on it, all of the sudden it becomes the most repugnant thing in the world. But people forget that we have done alot worse. Just like I used to talk about Israel. I do it rarely now because people don't like it, but the fact is they moved in and displaced a people who were doing just fine there. Well Heidi Ho there neighbor, we got our country the same way. So let's all us pots and kettles get together and make a good dinner, and quit bickering. Let Chavez sell his uranium to Russia, so what ? They are going to ante up an ICBM to hit us ? For what, mutual assured destruction ? They are simply not that crazy. Remember there is only one country in the world that has ever used a nuke against another country. I'll give you three guesses. T

DarkSteven -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/28/2009 5:53:39 AM)
Bull, it's not just you. The king of Spain told Chavez, "Why don't you just shut up?", and that little snippet has been downloaded a LOT of times... Chavez is nothing more than a tinhorn dictator. If Venezuela had no petroleum reserves, we wouldn't give him a second thought. But with petrodollars, he's pushing onto stages a lot, and trying to sell anti-US sentiment in Latin America. If we really wanted to make a statement, we could quit buying oil from Venezuela...

Moonhead -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/28/2009 8:01:00 AM)
Would that have any impact on Chavez? I doubt he'd have any trouble finding other buyers.

elegantcdgoddess -> RE: How long do we tolerate Chavez? (9/29/2009 8:40:04 AM)
Well if we didnt spend last 50 years messing thing up in Latin America, we wouldnt have Chavez. What is your suggestion, lets stage some crap again, put some military fuck there, who will torture citizens, just to spread democracy? Chavez is their president, let them deal with their own shit. Maybe while China is purchasing half of our country we should for one moment in time focus on our country.

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