The evolution of "Sir" (Full Version)

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CelticPrince -> The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 12:52:06 PM)

This subject has been massaged in the past by posters of the CM expereienced variety but since there has been a ton of new folks join the ranks in just 2009 it is worth another roll of the enlightenment dice.

When I first came onto the path decades ago, the use of "sir" was a defining moment as to status of both the Dominant as well as the submissive. For the submissive it identified her/him as a pathwalker and paid attention to the use of "sir" when addressing a Dominant. If it was her/his Dominant the "S" was capped and just a dominant it was lower case "s" or lower case"m" for ma'am.

Over the last few years, it has evolved to "que sera, sera"

While I spend little time in the chat rooms here on CM the culture is evident is some rooms and completely absent in others.
Be yee new to the path, Dominant of submissive; what is your application!

CP




porcelaine -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 1:45:00 PM)

i don't frequent chat rooms. nor do i generally find a good representation of the lifestyle that i've come to know in them. however, in reference to your question, when i communicate with someone in written form if they've neglected to use their name i will address them as Sir out of courtesy. i'm not opposed to honorifics nor do i feel they should be forced upon strangers either.

in familiar dialogue i'm far less formal, but i do notice my tone is decidedly different with one person. while we have never gone down the path where i've felt obligated to address him in a certain manner, i have noticed the way i respond is telling. i have a certain level of deference and respect that curtails my speech. there are things i'm not comfortable saying and i don't know why, i just don't feel it would be appropriate. i believe some of it is a reflection that his demeanor is akin to what i'd classify as an Owner under the principles i prefer.

i do make an exception for friends and their partners. i will typically be more courteous and utilize an honorific out of respect for the friendship and the role that person has in their life. the degree of how this is done differs, and i can only think of one person that might inspire the same kind of behavior that i offer to the gentleman mentioned above.

porcelaine




kallisto -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 3:21:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

This subject has been massaged in the past by posters of the CM expereienced variety but since there has been a ton of new folks join the ranks in just 2009 it is worth another roll of the enlightenment dice.

When I first came onto the path decades ago, the use of "sir" was a defining moment as to status of both the Dominant as well as the submissive. For the submissive it identified her/him as a pathwalker and paid attention to the use of "sir" when addressing a Dominant. If it was her/his Dominant the "S" was capped and just a dominant it was lower case "s" or lower case"m" for ma'am.

Over the last few years, it has evolved to "que sera, sera"

While I spend little time in the chat rooms here on CM the culture is evident is some rooms and completely absent in others.
Be yee new to the path, Dominant of submissive; what is your application!

CP



I think times may have changed a bit since the written word is a very viable and constant means of communication now. I don't see "Sir" as being strictly used to address "her Dom" (as in a collared relationship). However, I do feel there are those (of us) that feel there is a difference in "Sir" and "sir" and can't see them being interchangeable.

I see "sir" as a way of expressing knowledge of and appreciation for his position. Same for maam and her position. Being polite and courteous has never backfired on me.

For me with one man, using Sir (capitalizing the "S") when communicating via the written word shows a level to the relationship that has gone beyond that of casual banter back and forth. There is a deep level of trust, respect and appreciation that goes beyond just his position as the Dominant in the relationship. There is a difference in the "tone" of my words. I too (like porcelaine) believe it is because of his demeanor with me. In my eyes, he certainly deserves the "Sir".

In the written word, capitalizing or underlining or whatever other punctuation is used can change the meaning behind the word. It's very hard to put tones and inflections in the written word. To me, capitalizing or not puts emphasis on the level/intensity of the meaning of Sir.




dreamerdreaming -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 3:26:07 PM)

Can't help ya, there. I don't chat.




porcelaine -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 3:39:57 PM)

on the capitalization thing...

i write in lowercase because i'm too lazy to stretch my pinky and i type fast. i do not like to alternate case to reflect the dominant in my writing. with the exception of how i address them either by a given name or as Sir or Ma'am. i have used this with both dominants and submissive persons. i don't discriminate between either.

with the exception of a couple of situations where i may reference that person as Sir or Ma'am on the board, i generally see no reason to speak in this manner online. i do not shift case or do slashy speak and it makes my eyes hurt to read it. if i am referencing my owner in a discussion i might change case if i wish to make a point in that sentence. otherwise i see no reason to do so. i know who that person is. the case doesn't change that for me, unless i've been instructed to write in that manner.

as for the cm rooms, from what i noticed the two times i peeked for curiosity's sake, they are no different than other adult chat rooms, but merely with a bdsm flavor. i saw many of the same behaviors i'd witnessed in the past in other places. i don't believe everything can be replicated and in some respects maybe it shouldn't be either.

porcelaine




sweetsub1957 -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 4:47:39 PM)

I don't frequent the chatrooms, but when I type here on the message boards, or when I'd written letters to Dominants, I capitalize "Sir" or "Ma'am."  I just do because, when I answered my first c-mail, a Dom immediately informed me that His pronouns should all be capitalized & I just thought that's how it was supposed to be.  However, I no longer use slashy speak.  haha




CelticPrince -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 5:06:44 PM)

quote:

i don't frequent chat rooms. nor do i generally find a good representation of the lifestyle that i've come to know in them. however, in reference to your question, when i communicate with someone in written form if they've neglected to use their name i will address them as Sir out of courtesy. i'm not opposed to honorifics nor do i feel they should be forced upon strangers either.

in familiar dialogue i'm far less formal, but i do notice my tone is decidedly different with one person. while we have never gone down the path where i've felt obligated to address him in a certain manner, i have noticed the way i respond is telling. i have a certain level of deference and respect that curtails my speech. there are things i'm not comfortable saying and i don't know why, i just don't feel it would be appropriate. i believe some of it is a reflection that his demeanor is akin to what i'd classify as an Owner under the principles i prefer.

i do make an exception for friends and their partners. i will typically be more courteous and utilize an honorific out of respect for the friendship and the role that person has in their life. the degree of how this is done differs, and i can only think of one person that might inspire the same kind of behavior that i offer to the gentleman mentioned above.

porcelaine


porcelaine,

Nicely explained and thanks for your input!

CP




CelticPrince -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 5:12:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kallisto


quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

This subject has been massaged in the past by posters of the CM expereienced variety but since there has been a ton of new folks join the ranks in just 2009 it is worth another roll of the enlightenment dice.

When I first came onto the path decades ago, the use of "sir" was a defining moment as to status of both the Dominant as well as the submissive. For the submissive it identified her/him as a pathwalker and paid attention to the use of "sir" when addressing a Dominant. If it was her/his Dominant the "S" was capped and just a dominant it was lower case "s" or lower case"m" for ma'am.

Over the last few years, it has evolved to "que sera, sera"

While I spend little time in the chat rooms here on CM the culture is evident is some rooms and completely absent in others.
Be yee new to the path, Dominant of submissive; what is your application!

CP



I think times may have changed a bit since the written word is a very viable and constant means of communication now. I don't see "Sir" as being strictly used to address "her Dom" (as in a collared relationship). However, I do feel there are those (of us) that feel there is a difference in "Sir" and "sir" and can't see them being interchangeable.

I see "sir" as a way of expressing knowledge of and appreciation for his position. Same for maam and her position. Being polite and courteous has never backfired on me.

For me with one man, using Sir (capitalizing the "S") when communicating via the written word shows a level to the relationship that has gone beyond that of casual banter back and forth. There is a deep level of trust, respect and appreciation that goes beyond just his position as the Dominant in the relationship. There is a difference in the "tone" of my words. I too (like porcelaine) believe it is because of his demeanor with me. In my eyes, he certainly deserves the "Sir".

In the written word, capitalizing or underlining or whatever other punctuation is used can change the meaning behind the word. It's very hard to put tones and inflections in the written word. To me, capitalizing or not puts emphasis on the level/intensity of the meaning of Sir.

quote:

I think times may have changed a bit since the written word is a very viable and constant means of communication now. I don't see "Sir" as being strictly used to address "her Dom" (as in a collared relationship). However, I do feel there are those (of us) that feel there is a difference in "Sir" and "sir" and can't see them being interchangeable.

I see "sir" as a way of expressing knowledge of and appreciation for his position. Same for maam and her position. Being polite and courteous has never backfired on me.

For me with one man, using Sir (capitalizing the "S") when communicating via the written word shows a level to the relationship that has gone beyond that of casual banter back and forth. There is a deep level of trust, respect and appreciation that goes beyond just his position as the Dominant in the relationship. There is a difference in the "tone" of my words. I too (like porcelaine) believe it is because of his demeanor with me. In my eyes, he certainly deserves the "Sir".

In the written word, capitalizing or underlining or whatever other punctuation is used can change the meaning behind the word. It's very hard to put tones and inflections in the written word. To me, capitalizing or not puts emphasis on the level/intensity of the meaning of Sir.


kallisto,

as usual your observations run along the lines of common sense. The fact that it has changed is clear but the question is why. You clearly apply your resonse and logic as you see it; now how about why the universe of D/s has changed.

CP




CelticPrince -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 5:14:28 PM)

quote:

Can't help ya, there. I don't chat.


dreamer,

Methinks you misread the content of the original post. I rarely chat and the room example was just that an example. Do you have any thoughts on the subject sans chatrooms?

CP




CelticPrince -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 5:17:41 PM)

quote:

I don't frequent the chatrooms, but when I type here on the message boards, or when I'd written letters to Dominants, I capitalize "Sir" or "Ma'am." I just do because, when I answered my first c-mail, a Dom immediately informed me that His pronouns should all be capitalized & I just thought that's how it was supposed to be. However, I no longer use slashy speak. haha

_____________________________


sweetsub, Thanks for myour comments, now if only I knew what slashy speak was I would be a very learned dominant.

CP




kallisto -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 5:27:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

kallisto,

as usual your observations run along the lines of common sense. The fact that it has changed is clear but the question is why. You clearly apply your resonse and logic as you see it; now how about why the universe of D/s has changed.

CP


I don't think the "universe" of D/s has changed all that much.   I think the parameters in which it is lived has expanded a bit.  

Decades ago there was no internet, cell  phones, chat, and IM.   Relationships were one faceted .. with an occasional snail mail letter if one was away for any length of time.    Today we have so many ways of keeping in touch within a relationship that forms of communication have expanded.   It is very easy for a D/s  relationship to survive miles, days, weeks, or months of being apart and still have that day to day interaction.  

I don't want to get off topic here, but you asked about why it had changed.   In verbal conversation, if a Dom is addressed as Sir, it matters not whether it was intended as "Sir or sir".    In written format, all I was saying was typing "Sir or sir" can convey a meaning that otherwise would not be known.    For some, that meaning could be a sub talking about or to her Dom, her Owner.   For others, it could be a Dom that holds a very special place to her, or it could simply be showing respect and appreciation for him being a Dom.   




CelticPrince -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 6:10:06 PM)

quote:

I don't want to get off topic here, but you asked about why it had changed. In verbal conversation, if a Dom is addressed as Sir, it matters not whether it was intended as "Sir or sir". In written format, all I was saying was typing "Sir or sir" can convey a meaning that otherwise would not be known. For some, that meaning could be a sub talking about or to her Dom, her Owner. For others, it could be a Dom that holds a very special place to her, or it could simply be showing respect and appreciation for him being a Dom.


kallisto,

Well all of the above can apply!

CP




AnimusRex -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/26/2009 10:23:01 PM)

In the good old days...of chatrooms?

Where were these chatrooms where such rigorous training and vetting of Dominants took place?

How did the occupants of the chatrooms know when someone was worthy of the gravitas of the Capital Letter?

And even in reallife, when I go to dungeons, there is no vetting, there is no system of determining who is worthy of this that or the other title or honor or rank. In most places, you pay your fee, sign a waiver, and shazam, you are a submissive/ slave/ Master/ Domme/ Grand Imperial Wizard or whatever the hell you want to call yourself.

Was it ever different? Were there ever august and solemn Boards of Review that granted the title of "Sir" on hopeful young masters? Who elected them, or how were the decisions made? A vote, a consensus? Were there appeals?

Or was it really just a loose grouping of people who shared an interest in power relationships, and like all subcultures had a loose agreement as to norms and etiquette?




Acer49 -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/27/2009 12:55:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

This subject has been massaged in the past by posters of the CM expereienced variety but since there has been a ton of new folks join the ranks in just 2009 it is worth another roll of the enlightenment dice.

When I first came onto the path decades ago, the use of "sir" was a defining moment as to status of both the Dominant as well as the submissive. For the submissive it identified her/him as a pathwalker and paid attention to the use of "sir" when addressing a Dominant. If it was her/his Dominant the "S" was capped and just a dominant it was lower case "s" or lower case"m" for ma'am.

Over the last few years, it has evolved to "que sera, sera"

While I spend little time in the chat rooms here on CM the culture is evident is some rooms and completely absent in others.
Be yee new to the path, Dominant of submissive; what is your application!

CP


If the OP is implying that the term Sir has ever meant anything other than a term of respect when addressing a male human being who resides on this planet, then I am afraid he is under a misconception. A submissive who addresses an individual who believes he is a dominant as Sir, is in no way validating his belief. The submissive is in no way under any obligation to submit to anyone simply because they are referred to as Sir. The only time the term Sir means anything more is when two or more individuals who are entering into or are in a relationship mutually agree that it does.





agirl -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/27/2009 1:57:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince


Be yee new to the path, Dominant of submissive; what is your application!

CP


I'm not new but I've never viewed anyone who happens to be into bdsm, or in a D/s relationship as anything other than just another person. I'm not knocking anyone for whom it means something but it simply never has to me.

So, my application is .........I don't call anyone anything other than their name and see no reason to.

agirl




HalloweenWhite -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/27/2009 3:27:04 AM)


I'm relativively new to r/l D/s, but I've been surfing the D/s chatrooms a lot longer and I think there's a big difference between how people behave towards each other in the r/l scene and how they behave in cuberspace. I've never been refered to as Sir in r/l and haven't heard Anyone else refered to as Sir or Ma'am either, and like I said, I'm reletively new to r/l D/s so I admit I don't know what I don't know, but I get the impression the whole "Sir/Ma'am" thing is mainly for the online fetishers.




angelslave77 -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/27/2009 3:50:55 AM)

A//all H/he ect is what I understand as slashy speak.
as for the Sir thing, My love is my Sir if and when I chat  everyone else is just a person, I respect the orientation but it is meaningless to me so I dont capitalise anyone or I do it to everyone




DesFIP -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/27/2009 4:50:03 AM)

If you're talking about upper or lower case, then it is obviously an online/chat thing. Because in real life, nobody turns to their dominant and says "Upper case Sir, would you like another cup of coffee?".

And since nobody I have never met is someone I automatically defer to, I don't use online conventions. I don't use chat so can't speak of that but my understanding is that different chat rooms have different conventions.




ShoreBound149 -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/27/2009 6:55:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I'm not new but I've never viewed anyone who happens to be into bdsm, or in a D/s relationship as anything other than just another person. I'm not knocking anyone for whom it means something but it simply never has to me.

So, my application is .........I don't call anyone anything other than their name and see no reason to.

agirl



This is exactly how I feel.  To me, using out of the ordinary titles and unconventional writing techniques feels like I'm playing a game.  I'm not.  I don't discount those who prefer to have speech and written communication modified from the norm in their interactions but I prefer a pure reality based approach to communication. 

Although - I've found those all bold typers to be exceptionally odd.....




littlewonder -> RE: The evolution of "Sir" (9/27/2009 10:14:08 AM)

I don't call anyone Sir except Master and the occasional old man at work to soothe his angry mind (makes him calm down enough for me to speak rationally with him).

In chat rooms and online forums they get called their screenname. In real life they get Mr so and so or in my line of work, Attorney So and So.




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