quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

~fast reply~

Well, I think I must owe a thank you to daddysprop for being even more literal than me and therefor drawing the ire of the moral majority. And what's really funny is that that viewpoint is so totally out of character for me. I'm the one who refused to drink the "your kink is OK" koolaid. I have steadfastly retained not just my right, but my civic duty to judge other people's relationships. And for all of that, I just can't find much to get all excited about in prop's postings. Sure, some apparently horrific stuff has happened. I get that... sort of... I'm suspicious becuase it is so abundantly plain that I don't know the whole story or anything close to it. What I DO know, however, is that I don't get the wounded victim vibes from prop. Instead, when I read her postings, I hear a competent, articulate, self-aware and self-posessed individual. And, that individual is asserting that she loves the man in question and that he treats her well. So for all of my willingness to judge, I just don't see much to go on here other than obviously incomplete and highly conflicting stories. Not, by the way, that I think prop has tried to mislead any of us. I just think that her life is probably the poster child for the phrase, it's complicated.

I guess put differently, the only evidence I have directly before me is her words. And in my ears, at least, her words just don't sound like the words of a victim. Quite the contrary in fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VirginPotty

I agree with Leadership. The minute I started reading dp's posts I never rec'd the "victim vibe" from her. For the "BDSM Lifestyle Patrol", kindly get off your high horse's and work on your own relationships IF you have one. If you don't that explains your obsession w/dp's.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Yes, yes, no, no, no, yes, no, yes. Not sure what that has to do with the things I listed, ie stealing, rape, or torturing animals for fun (chasing isn't torture, killing insects isn't fun, if it is done for amusement then it's a problem).

quote:

Based on common sense, overturned by the evolution of common sense. The 'common' part of common sense implies that it changes with the times, with the current sense of what's common.

quote:

Toss Daddysprop's guardian in Afghanistan and common sense would say he's fine. Point is he's here, not there.

quote:

I think that's ridiculous to be honest. You're saying you can't have an ethical viewpoint about something unless it's something you want to involve yourself directly with?

quote:

Would you say that stabbing someone to death to take his shoes is neither ethical nor unethical, or is it just this particular situation you think ethics don't apply to?

quote:

Oh, completely the opposite. I want to give him the freedom to be responsible for his actions. In a court of law.

quote:

I don't know her well enough to know what the right way for her is. Hell, maybe being physically abused is the right way for her, though I highly, highly doubt that. But whether or not it is the right way doesn't mean it's not abusive.

quote:

I meant arguing in the sense of putting forth argument. Debating, giving opposing viewpoints. Not in the sense of being nasty to each other.

quote:

And what is it exactly that you have against justice?

quote:

I really think you're just seeing this as a BDSM issue when in reality it's more complex than that. She can't consent, legally, and it's more than just a legal matter. Do you think someone with severe emotional disturbance to that extent can consent to slavery? Don't you think that she's at a disadvantage?

quote:

I can understand your motivations in thinking that questioning her ability to consent would lead to questioning any extreme slave's ability to consent, but I do think it affects your position. I'm pretty much standing at a disinterested angle - I don't know any DV victims, or any emotionally unstable people or anyone in a similar position to her, nor am I in one myself, so I don't really have any personal interest that would affect my judgement of her situation. I don't get off on controlling people and saying "no you can't do that because I don't want you to." I genuinely think he is in the wrong here. I think he's a predator. And I wonder if you would be able to see the same if it weren't for the fear that him being labeled a predator might adversely affect your own relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Yes I have one. Don't think it needs work 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Yes, yes, no, no, no, yes, no, yes. Not sure what that has to do with the things I listed, ie stealing, rape, or torturing animals for fun (chasing isn't torture, killing insects isn't fun, if it is done for amusement then it's a problem).

So every child that chases a pigeon and laughs in glee is a sociopath.  Got it.

quote:

quote:

Based on common sense, overturned by the evolution of common sense. The 'common' part of common sense implies that it changes with the times, with the current sense of what's common.

Common doesn't imply changes.  It implies the decisions by a collective (usually a majority) whilst excluding others (usually a minority) without any mystic qualties based on vicarious advice.

quote:

quote:

Toss Daddysprop's guardian in Afghanistan and common sense would say he's fine. Point is he's here, not there.

 I cannot even bring myself to respond on that (IMO bigoted) stereotype.  A fine example of common sense?

quote:

quote:

I think that's ridiculous to be honest. You're saying you can't have an ethical viewpoint about something unless it's something you want to involve yourself directly with?

Not exactly.  You can have whatever ethics you want if you want them.

quote:

quote:

Would you say that stabbing someone to death to take his shoes is neither ethical nor unethical, or is it just this particular situation you think ethics don't apply to?

Depends on the reasons.  Your question is to vague to respond on the ethics of it.

quote:

quote:

Oh, completely the opposite. I want to give him the freedom to be responsible for his actions. In a court of law.

And take away her life.  You cannot do one without the other.

quote:

I don't know her well enough to know what the right way for her is. Hell, maybe being physically abused is the right way for her, though I highly, highly doubt that. But whether or not it is the right way doesn't mean it's not abusive.

But you act and speak like you already know what is 'right' for her.  You yourself said that you would report it.  You have already made that decision.

quote:

And whether it is abuse or not is not what I am discussing.

quote:

quote:

And what is it exactly that you have against justice?

That raised a smile in me a little.  I have nothing against justice.  However very few people know the meaning behind the word, let alone the injustice people suffer because of other peoples sense of 'justice'.

quote:

If someone else on this board posted that they had a life similar to Daddysprop's, I'd question their sanity. In her case I don't have to. The question's been resolved by a court of law and both she and her guardian accept the outcome of their decision. She has no problem saying she's legally incompetent, the only issue is whether her guardian is abusive toward her or not.

Then forget it.  If it's already been decided, why say you would report it?  And again, I am not discussing abuse  Not on a forum where people abuse each other on a regular basis.

quote:

quote:

I really think you're just seeing this as a BDSM issue when in reality it's more complex than that. She can't consent, legally, and it's more than just a legal matter. Do you think someone with severe emotional disturbance to that extent can consent to slavery? Don't you think that she's at a disadvantage?

On the contrary.  I already know that DaddysProp doesn't define her relationship as a BDSM lifestyle one... or a BDSM anything.  It's other people who have been doing that, and will continue to do so.  This isn't the first thread where Daddys Props been dragged through it.  It won't be the last.

quote:

And AGAIN... I do not believe in consent other than yummyfuzzybuzz word to make most people feel ok about what they do.

quote:

quote:

I can understand your motivations in thinking that questioning her ability to consent would lead to questioning any extreme slave's ability to consent, but I do think it affects your position. I'm pretty much standing at a disinterested angle - I don't know any DV victims, or any emotionally unstable people or anyone in a similar position to her, nor am I in one myself, so I don't really have any personal interest that would affect my judgement of her situation. I don't get off on controlling people and saying "no you can't do that because I don't want you to." I genuinely think he is in the wrong here. I think he's a predator. And I wonder if you would be able to see the same if it weren't for the fear that him being labeled a predator might adversely affect your own relationship.

You keep saying now you aren't interested.  Yet you have been the only person to say that you would report it.  That is a contradiction.
It's not him being labelled a predator that I fear, the most deadly are the people who believe they are helping someone by labelling them in the first place all in the name of so called 'common sense' and consent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Yes I have one. Don't think it needs work 

And there you have it.

the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Reread please. I said chasing *isn't* torture.

quote:

The 'common' part of common sense implies that it changes with the times, with the current sense of what's common.

quote:

Right, decisions by a collective (majority or vocal enough minority) but since the ethics of that collective change based on time and place, it would follow that what is considered common sense would chage as well, right?

quote:

quote:

Toss Daddysprop's guardian in Afghanistan and common sense would say he's fine. Point is he's here, not there.

 I cannot even bring myself to respond on that (IMO bigoted) stereotype.  A fine example of common sense?

quote:

Well I know marital rape is legal there.

quote:

And I believe corporal punishment of family members is as well.

quote:

I was using "you" in the second-person, not in the general 'anyone' meaning. Do you mean that you, personally, can't have an ethical viewpoint unless you want to involve yourself in it directly?

quote:

The reasons are to steal his shoes. Because the stabber wants them. You really think that's vague?

quote:

I would report it because I think what he is doing is illegal and unethical. I don't need to know what would be the ideal situation for her to know that what he's doing is wrong. We're discussing two different things here. You're talking about whether she should be rescued. I'm talking about whether he should be stopped. Same end result, yes, but far different motivations.

quote:

It is what I've been discussing, for most of this thread.

quote:

I presume this means you disagree with me on the just course of action to take?

quote:

It's been decided that she's legally mentally incompetent. I wouldn't be reporting her incompetence, I'd be reporting the fact that her guardian is battering her. Whether or not you consider it abuse (I do, and that's what I've been saying the whole time) it IS battering.

quote:

Then perhaps she'd find a better reception on a non-BDSM board. There are pro-ana sites, I'm sure if she made a pro-DV one she'd get quite a following of support.

quote:

If you don't believe in consent, what do you see as the difference between a ravishment scene and date rape?

quote:

By disinterested I meant I don't have any personal stake in the thing. I'd report it out of a sense of right and wrong, not any personal interest.

quote:

I don't think we're going to agree about this. I feel if I see something wrong I should say or do something about it, if I'm able. I see that you don't think there's anything wrong in what's going on, but what do you think a person should do when they see something they feel is wrong?

quote:

I mean I'm not talking about going to his house and lynching him,

quote:

I'm talking about reporting the facts of the situation to whichever agency appointed him to be her legal guardian. This isn't Gitmo, he'll get an attorney and a trial and all that. I just wonder, if you think that the deadly people are the ones who step up to try to stop what they view as injustice, how can you bring up abolitionists and suffragettes and all in your other post, implying that you support them? Either you believe people should speak up for what they believe in or you don't, you can't have it hinge on whether or not you agree with the person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

While I may not agree with all the things I've read about dp's relationship........until I see, up close and in person, that the young woman in question is in a situation that she would be better off out of..........I am keeping my nose out of it. I hate the nosey busy body mentality and I see an awful lot of assumptions and busy-ness going on.

I am also VERY aware that my personal squicks and opinions are not shared by the entire world. What I see as being awful, might very well be someone else's wonderful. It is NOT MY PLACE to shove my morality off on everyone else. And THAT is what this subject boils down to.

Not to mention........I very well know that I cannot save most people from themselves.

And I have to say that I have great admiration for the way daddy'sprop handles these discussions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Yes I have one. Don't think it needs work 

And there you have it.

the.dark.

Yeah I have one of those strange relationships where we're both happy and love each other. As someone who rarely reads either womens magazines or pop psych books, I rarely get the urge to go and tinker with a good relationship, especially because all the women I know who go out of their way to do things to 'work on the relationship' when it doesn't need it tend to smother and destroy the relationship instead of helping it.

So I'll save the relationship fixing for when there's something to be fixed, y'know?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Yeah I have one of those strange relationships where we're both happy and love each other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

While I may not agree with all the things I've read about dp's relationship........until I see, up close and in person, that the young woman in question is in a situation that she would be better off out of..........I am keeping my nose out of it. I hate the nosey busy body mentality and I see an awful lot of assumptions and busy-ness going on.

I am also VERY aware that my personal squicks and opinions are not shared by the entire world. What I see as being awful, might very well be someone else's wonderful. It is NOT MY PLACE to shove my morality off on everyone else. And THAT is what this subject boils down to.

Not to mention........I very well know that I cannot save most people from themselves.

And I have to say that I have great admiration for the way daddy'sprop handles these discussions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Reread please. I said chasing *isn't* torture.

In your ethics, of course not.  But I am pretty sure that when a bird (in this case) is disturbed with what it percieves is a threat, you are torturing that animal.  Ever had birds?  I do.  I also know that approching a flock of strange birds, their pupils constrict whereas when I approch my own, or a flock that knows me, they do not.  It's a sign of fear and used in defense.  Torture isn't just about pulling the legs off craneflies!

quote:

quote:

The 'common' part of common sense implies that it changes with the times, with the current sense of what's common.

quote:

Right, decisions by a collective (majority or vocal enough minority) but since the ethics of that collective change based on time and place, it would follow that what is considered common sense would chage as well, right?

Yes.  However common isn't defined as change.  I would be interested in which dictionary you get that definition from.

quote:

quote:

quote:

Toss Daddysprop's guardian in Afghanistan and common sense would say he's fine. Point is he's here, not there.

 I cannot even bring myself to respond on that (IMO bigoted) stereotype.  A fine example of common sense?

quote:

Well I know marital rape is legal there.

And in many western countries, it's not even acknowledged.  It's been tried and it's failed a conviction in many places.

quote:

quote:

And I believe corporal punishment of family members is as well.

And you advocate the death penelty.

quote:

quote:

I was using "you" in the second-person, not in the general 'anyone' meaning. Do you mean that you, personally, can't have an ethical viewpoint unless you want to involve yourself in it directly?

The ethics which apply within our life and those involved by choice.

quote:

quote:

The reasons are to steal his shoes. Because the stabber wants them. You really think that's vague?

Yes.

quote:

quote:

I would report it because I think what he is doing is illegal and unethical. I don't need to know what would be the ideal situation for her to know that what he's doing is wrong. We're discussing two different things here. You're talking about whether she should be rescued. I'm talking about whether he should be stopped. Same end result, yes, but far different motivations.

No I am not talking about her being rescued at all.
And what does that do for your life?

quote:

quote:

It is what I've been discussing, for most of this thread.

OK.  So not what?

quote:

quote:

I presume this means you disagree with me on the just course of action to take?

For me - if it is the above?  Yes.

quote:

quote:

It's been decided that she's legally mentally incompetent. I wouldn't be reporting her incompetence, I'd be reporting the fact that her guardian is battering her. Whether or not you consider it abuse (I do, and that's what I've been saying the whole time) it IS battering.

I just do not see how not being bothered or obsessed by DaddysProps relationship = feeling the need to report it.

quote:

quote:

Then perhaps she'd find a better reception on a non-BDSM board. There are pro-ana sites, I'm sure if she made a pro-DV one she'd get quite a following of support.

Ah, so what you are actually now saying is that it wasn't me who based her relationship on BDSM but everyone else?  So now we all become specialised and cozy in our safe sane and totally consensual BDSM family?  Because of commonality?  Seriously?  You really believe you have much in common with the majority here when you state that you don't believe your relationship needs 'work'?  Maybe you are the one who should start a site of 'Perfect relationships'?

quote:

quote:

If you don't believe in consent, what do you see as the difference between a ravishment scene and date rape?

One is a fantasy and one is reality.

quote:

quote:

By disinterested I meant I don't have any personal stake in the thing. I'd report it out of a sense of right and wrong, not any personal interest.

So it's a moral highground judgement then and you do not have a personal interest on what is good for Daddy's Prop.  Just so long as we (the majority) are clear.
Are you religous by the way?

quote:

quote:

I don't think we're going to agree about this. I feel if I see something wrong I should say or do something about it, if I'm able. I see that you don't think there's anything wrong in what's going on, but what do you think a person should do when they see something they feel is wrong?

That depends if someone desires help or not.

quote:

quote:

I mean I'm not talking about going to his house and lynching him,

Why not?

quote:

quote:

I'm talking about reporting the facts of the situation to whichever agency appointed him to be her legal guardian. This isn't Gitmo, he'll get an attorney and a trial and all that. I just wonder, if you think that the deadly people are the ones who step up to try to stop what they view as injustice, how can you bring up abolitionists and suffragettes and all in your other post, implying that you support them? Either you believe people should speak up for what they believe in or you don't, you can't have it hinge on whether or not you agree with the person.

Because they have a stake in the injustice!  Because there is someone suggesting that an injustice has been done to them!

quote:

In DaddysProps case... neither have occured.  You aren't involved.  You have nothing at stake (your own admission), you don't care and are not obsessed.  Having looked at your profile, you don't have anything in common with her.

quote:

I get that you think it's all wrong and abusive.  But unless you have a vested interest in the relationship or situation, unless it effects you personally, you don't care about DaddysProp or whether this is her words of fantasy or reality, just your own morals - self sated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Yes I have one. Don't think it needs work 

And there you have it.

the.dark.

Yeah I have one of those strange relationships where we're both happy and love each other. As someone who rarely reads either womens magazines or pop psych books, I rarely get the urge to go and tinker with a good relationship, especially because all the women I know who go out of their way to do things to 'work on the relationship' when it doesn't need it tend to smother and destroy the relationship instead of helping it.

So I'll save the relationship fixing for when there's something to be fixed, y'know?

Who said anything about fixing?
Great to hear you have found perfection.  But what's next for you then?

the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Yeah I have one of those strange relationships where we're both happy and love each other.

So the only difference is that people are not harping on personal interpretations of events in your life in a way to where they are questioning the veracity of the words you just spoke (at best) or the stability of your mental state (at worst).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Oh and also the fact that my relationship is perfect. Or so I've been told.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Oh and also the fact that my relationship is perfect. Or so I've been told.

Your relationship may very well be PERFECT FOR YOU, but realize, that for someone else, it may be sheer hell.

If I am that someone else, should I try to change what you have? Make it wrong, persecute you for having it?

quote:

I didn't say common was defined as change. I said that the idea that the sense involved was common implies that it's common to the beliefs of the time and place, and as time and place changes then what is common changes as well. Hence, "implies" rather than "is defined as". And really what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

quote:

That is an interesting and utterly irrelevant tidbit.

quote:

I'm less of an advocate and more of a passive supporter, in the case of capital crimes.

quote:

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

quote:

Is there a particular part you'd like clarified?

quote:

I don't understand the question "what does that do for your life?" - how would reporting criminal behavior in someone else's home affect my life?

quote:

Obsessed? Seriously? I thought you only did discussion, not argument. What's with the potshots?

quote:

No, I'm saying if Daddysprop isn't in a BDSM relationship she does herself a disservice by discussing it on a BDSM board where standards are different from her own.

quote:

I don't know if I have much in common with the majority here. I know I don't have a perfect relationship.

quote:

And what is it that separates the fantasy of rape from the reality of rape if not the consent of the one being raped?

quote:

Fair enough. I think that's the crux of where we differ.

quote:

So the men who marched for womens' suffrage and the northern whites who fought against slavery were just nosey busybodies like me?

quote:

If I saw a bank being robbed, I'd call the police. Regardless of whether I had my money kept at that bank or another one. I think it's pretty selfish to only speak out against something if it affects you personally.

quote:

I just don't see how "she isn't asking you to stop him from abusing her" equates to "it's okay for him to abuse her."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Yeah I have one of those strange relationships where we're both happy and love each other.

quote:

Well generally when you work on something it's because it needs work done. I prefer to treat relationships as a joint activity to participate in rather than a project to work on or a child to nurture.

Is "happy and in love" so rare that it's now considered perfection?

What's next is a marriage in December and hopefully quite a few decades together. Preferably involving the purchase of a house.