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Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:25:23 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		I am fairly reluctant to start this thread because of the subject matter. I fear that it could degenerate into something quite ugly rather quickly. I hope that it can be a level headed debate.

Why is it that tolerance is preached, desired and demanded by those with alternate lifestyles but they are, mostly, intolerant of religion? This question has bugged me for a long time.

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:29:38 PM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Your experience must be diffrent to mine then my friend if you haven't found tollerance in that department. I've seen very few who are not prepaired to live and let live. OK I'm no big fan of a few of the big organised religions, but on the personal level it never bothers me unless someone is trying to stuff their religion down my throat. That, at least so far has been a rare occassion indeed.

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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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(in reply to Gauge)
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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:31:22 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Often I believe the bottom line is one word..... FEAR.

Remember that Alternative religions don't have the backing from the State and they have a long history of persecution. Ergo if it aint yours it must be enemy and premptive strikes may prevent being wiped out... it's a lot more complex and subtle than that but Gauge, it the basic skeleton.

I don't agree with it and never have but I've lived my adult life in the midst of it especially when I've been in Australia. Fought my share of court battles and invoked both State and Federal Anti Discrimination Laws too on a few occasions.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/2/2006 1:32:01 PM >

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http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:31:28 PM   
KatyLied


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Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I don't see people in the lifestyle any more or less tolerant of things than in the general population. Everyone needs to let go of the attitude that the lifestyle is blessed with special tolerance, honesty, ethics. etc. It just isn't so.

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:33:40 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I should add, that alternative life styles also includes alternative religions.. Pagan Lifestyle, Wiccan Lifestyle to name a few

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Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:35:26 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Why is it that tolerance is preached, desired and demanded by those with alternate lifestyles but they are, mostly, intolerant of religion? This question has bugged me for a long time.

Because people who go into alt sub-cultures tend to chafe at any system of authority, and feel it is a repression on them. So they push back.

Also, for a large chunk, people go into alt sub-cultures because they don't fit into already existing mainstream cultures- including religious groups.

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:36:20 PM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
I don't see people in the lifestyle any more or less tolerant of things than in the general population. Everyone needs to let go of the attitude that the lifestyle is blessed with special tolerance, honesty, ethics. etc. It just isn't so.


Did I say it was because of the lifestyle? I said what MY experience had been and so far it hasn't been a topic that has been more than just a passing question. No friction at all.

But then I don't get much friction on that level in most vanilla company.... As I don't tend to socialise with fundies!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:37:45 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

I don't see people in the lifestyle any more or less tolerant of things than in the general population. Everyone needs to let go of the attitude that the lifestyle is blessed with special tolerance, honesty, ethics. etc. It just isn't so.


I am not claiming that the lifestyle is blessed with special tolerance or any such thing. I am making an observation at the seemingly negative attitude toward religion. Perhaps I am making more out of it than I should.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:42:17 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

Because people who go into alt sub-cultures tend to chafe at any system of authority, and feel it is a repression on them. So they push back.

Also, for a large chunk, people go into alt sub-cultures because they don't fit into already existing mainstream cultures- including religious groups.


OK... but if those in alternate lifestyles decry lack of tolerance what gives them the right to want it?

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:44:23 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Well there is that old proverb "Never talk about religion or politics" *grin*

Saying that, there was a recent thread here where everyone just shared their philosophical/religious affiliations, from what I saw everyone pretty much seemed to tolerate, even accept that others had different views to themselves.

I think the only time intolerance comes into play in general is when people adopt a "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude and try to enforce their beliefs and opinions on others and that happens in all kindsa areas of life.

Also, when you come across subjects that involved "belief" they are most times a very sensitive area to tread as when someone "believes" something, they actually have to invest themselves in it, and in so doing can perceive attacks against themselves (right or wrongly) when someone believes other than themselves.

Another thing that comes to mind is, a lot of people have had bad experiences with religion, or have come to think that its all full of shit from basically having it thrown down their throat, so have removed themslves entirely from it. Other people have done historical research and gathered different information than what the churches for example are preaching and have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and become atheist in some form or another. Others still have had lived in families with no religion or philosophical belief and so cannot relate to other people with belief's in this way. Others have been influenced by varying other belief systems and have adopted them as their own, replacing their previous belief.

So many scenarios but at the end of the day what it all amounts to is, if someone ever feels the need to defend themselves or their beliefs, whether that is pro or con religion or a particular philosophy or whatever really, there are going to be disputes as most times it will take the form of an attack.

(in reply to Gauge)
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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:45:17 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

Why is it that tolerance is preached, desired and demanded by those with alternate lifestyles but they are, mostly, intolerant of religion?


Religion and Politics...those are the two things that I have found that most...notice I said MOST...will defend to the very end. I think it's because religion goes so deeply into our own core, that when it's attacked, we naturally stand up fast to defend it...no matter what our beliefs are ( this is just my OWN opinion here, and not meant to be a generalized statement )

One of the reasons why I try my best to stay out of discussions that involve politics or religion is that there is such a narrow edge there...you either believe in one thing, or you dont...you are either a certain party or you are not...there is no in between there. It's one or the other. And when one side is attacked...it puts the backs up of everyone on the opposing view...and EVERYONE is determined to be right.

Just my thoughts on it though...for whatever it's worth

/shrug

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:45:27 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
OK... but if those in alternate lifestyles decry lack of tolerance what gives them the right to want it?

I never said it was logical.

Why is it that kinksters will cry out for their rights to play and be spanked and flogged, but freak out at the idea of someone getting their breasts larger for their partners pleasure?



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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 1:51:45 PM   
SirKenin


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Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		People only scream "TOLERANCE!!!!!" for that which they, themselves, are tolerant.

You can fill in the blanks.

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 2:00:07 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Why is it that tolerance is preached, desired and demanded by those with alternate lifestyles but they are, mostly, intolerant of religion?


Religion and Politics...those are the two things that I have found that most...notice I said MOST...will defend to the very end. I think it's because religion goes so deeply into our own core, that when it's attacked, we naturally stand up fast to defend it...no matter what our beliefs are ( this is just my OWN opinion here, and not meant to be a generalized statement )

One of the reasons why I try my best to stay out of discussions that involve politics or religion is that there is such a narrow edge there...you either believe in one thing, or you dont...you are either a certain party or you are not...there is no in between there. It's one or the other. And when one side is attacked...it puts the backs up of everyone on the opposing view...and EVERYONE is determined to be right.

Just my thoughts on it though...for whatever it's worth

/shrug


In the main, I agree with you here. In most cases within my experience, people are often ready to agree to disagree on many matters. The various friends I have who are clergy in various mainstreem religions, do not debate or discuss ouyr diferences or beliefs in a combative mode, but usually take a "lets find commonality" attitude which sets up the agree to disagree philosophy. The problem occurs when some sections sprout hurtfull comments or take the holier than thou attitude. One example I can give is last year I visited a shop run by a Born again group. I was on an errand for one of my friends. the Born Again Christian Pastor focused on my pendent which comprises of a circle encompasing a hexagram (six pointed star) and a pentagram (five pointed star) set in the midst of the hexegram. The Pastor pointed at the pendent and screamed that I was wearing the devil's sign. He then commensed to berate me for wearing the Hexagram as God had told him it was the sign od Satan. Interestingly another friend was there who is Jewish. The Hexagram is also known as the Seal of Solomon or the Star of David which is the symbol of Isreal. Probably my fault for forgetting that the pendent was on the outside of my shirt. It is normally worn outsibe when I am on Pastoral Calls. That pendent is BTW the pendent of the Grand Master of my lodge.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to IrishMist)
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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 2:08:32 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline
quote:

you either believe in one thing, or you dont...you are either a certain party or you are not...there is no in between there.


/hears buzzer

Think that means that what you say isnt 100% true.

Which you probably didnt mean it as. but i want to be an ass. Am i doing good so far? i, yup thats ME, makes your statement untrue.. tho it could be true generally, beacuse i am not one religion and i think a good healthy mixture is a good idea (tho i do claim christianity cos its easy. Yes, thats just straight christianity) and sometimes i believe and sometimes i DONT believe. Nor am i any political party. i sorta have views on both sides.. liberal.. democrat.. republican.. I like to mix and match politics like i do religion. <shrugs>

i believe in Jesus (90% of the time) and i believe that the way to heaven is through him.. but then ya know i believe in reincarnation and mutiple Gods... i believe our souls turn to energy and in the next life i will probably come back as a bug. i believe that each life is a trial.. or a test of faith and dependent upon your achievements is where you "go" next. i believe in Aliens and i REALLY do think they're doing anal probes.. and that logically they are prolly the "Gods".. and i also believe that religion was just some joke some dumb man made that got out of control. i believe in ghosts and spirits and the ouji board. Demons and most likely possessions. i believe in the dark side, of evil i'm glad i dont know about. i believe in astrial projection and the astrial planes i've heard over the years by various ppl. i believe ppl have aura's too. i believe in witches and wizards and i'd LOVE to believe in vampires but i think i'm out of luck with them. i believe in all hallow's eve and that demons of sorts walk among us, we just cant see them. Rah i haev more beliefs and all of its more indepth.. but that'd take up alot of space writing out.

i also believe that it could be just a way for mankind to explain the terrible unexplainable thing called death. The thing that no one can comphrend. Which of course, explains away religion to me.. but it doesnt explain the other half of what i think is going on in this world.

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 3/2/2006 2:11:12 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 2:19:43 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Personally, I am a totally "live and let live" kind of guy. But what do you do when others will not let you alone? Don't I also have the right to be left alone to my own ways and with my own views on matters of faith or even a lack thereof?

Generally speaking I am intolerant of those faiths that are evangelical and want to dictate/legislate the morality that I must live by. This makes perfect sense - they are hostile to me and I must defend my position, even if I must take an offensive position to challenge them as well.

Take an issue like Gay Marriage. Now I think that the government shouldn't be in the marriage business at all, but legally recognized relationships have legal repercussions in terms of insurance and emergency medical decisions, etc. - so it matters on some level. I am not gay, but I can see no reason under the U.S. Constitution to not allow a possible minority group the opportunity to live as others do - with legally recognized unions. So I favor Gay Marriage and vehemently oppose anyone that sees it differently. They can oppose Gay Marriage on moral grounds if they wish - tell us how God condemns it, etc.; but when they oppose it on political grounds they are being unamerican in my view - they are refusing to recognize and allow a minority viewpoint even if they disagree with it, to "live and let live." And that's the whole point of the American project - to allow even minority views and ways of life, not to annihilate them.

My point is inclusion - I favor everyone being on the exact same playing field. Those that favor exclusion - for whatever reason - are my political enemies.

Fair is fair.

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 2:45:50 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Why is it that tolerance is preached, desired and demanded by those with alternate lifestyles but they are, mostly, intolerant of religion? This question has bugged me for a long time.


I have as much tolerance for religion as the religion in question has for me. If within a religions dogma my activities and preferences doom me to an afterlife of hell; I'm not going to be tolerant of it. If a religion's doctrine supported by its recognized leaders preaches that any "non-believer" should be converted or killed; I'm not going to practice tolerance toward it. I lack tolerance for hypocrisy and fraudulent representation. I can't tolerate a religion who claims that life begins at conception and preaches for the protection of all children; yet doesn't police, condemn or remove those within their ranks who prey on them. I lack tolerance for any entity claiming divine mandate to kill or convert me. You can summarize my answer to your question that I am intolerant of the intolerance of religions.

That opinion doesn't exclude me from having relationships and "tolerating" religious or better yet, spiritual people. I'd say that beth is just about the most truly spiritual and God believing person I've ever met and we seem to be, at the very least, tolerating each other. My guess is she prays enough for both of us. But I have a bad habit of high-lighting hypocrisy and fraud when I see it represented. I'll point it out and have others see it and draw their own conclusions. If that's defined as "intolerance" I'm guilty, but I don't apologize. If it seems religion is often the subject maybe it's because religion has a higher concentration and frequency of occurrence of hypocrisy than other groups; even the group represented by this website.

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 2:48:02 PM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
In the main, I agree with you here. In most cases within my experience, people are often ready to agree to disagree on many matters.


Got to agree with you there IB... the majority of folks at any case in my experience.

Back when I worked at the hospital, the guy I got on best with when it came to discussing theology.... the Anglican chaplin. There where a few topics he asked me to simply avoid discussing with him... as he said quite openly, I tended to make him think a lot and for him to do his job there where a few things he couldn't afford to question too deeply. Which was IMO a sound and self-aware statement, so we avoided those areas he considered problematic. He didn't try and convert me and I didn't try to undermine his faith.... didn't mean we couldn't cover a whole range of theological topics.

Only one person had a problem with me being openly Pagan... she was a fundie and I took as little notice of her ranting and raving as everybody else did.... The only person she upset was herself and the only damage she did was also to herself with other folks questioning her sanity!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to IronBear)
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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 3:14:12 PM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Why is it that tolerance is preached, desired and demanded by those with alternate lifestyles but they are, mostly, intolerant of religion? This question has bugged me for a long time.


Many alternate lifestylers aren't even tolerant of others within their own subculture.

You'd think there'd be less X-phobia all across the board wouldn't you?

< Message edited by pollux -- 3/2/2006 3:15:50 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 3/2/2006 8:15:33 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		so nice weather outside.....

(in reply to pollux)
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