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RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/1/2009 1:14:24 PM

elegantcdgoddess

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A 14-year-old girl has died after being given a cervical cancer jab as part of a national immunisation programme, but the exact cause of death is unknown.

Huh, so if i get run over by 18 wheeler after taking aspirin, media will have huge headline "Person died after taking pain medications"

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 41

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/1/2009 1:52:54 PM

calamitysandra

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DomKen, at which age do you think UMs should be allowed to gain sovereignty over their body? Will you wait until they turn 18, then simply hand responsibility over to somebody completely unprepared?
As I see it, that would be a recipe for disaster.
As most things, making decisions, especially the big, potentially life changing ones, has to be learned, trained. A 15 year old who has gradually been eased into taking responsibility for his/her own life and body since early childhood, might very well be able to make this decision.

I applaud every parent who has the strength to take a step back and hand the rudder over. It is among the hardest parts of our job.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 10/1/2009 1:54:56 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/1/2009 3:27:23 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This occured yesterday and has not been posted. I was waiting to see an outcome before posting to avoid fearmongering and we have had one today. I am sure there will be more.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8279656.stm

And todays update.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8281673.stm

the.dark.

Unknown medical condition, how convenient, you do not allow your child to be given medicine without being given all the possible risk factors, especially if it being given by the government

Your signature line says " The wise man speaks because he has something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something~~Plato " Thats quite ironic because if you had read Rules link you would have seen what the cause of death was.

You used the words "how convenient" and followed it up by saying you should not trust the government. I am dismayed at such a lack of objectivity, just to try and score a point.

(in reply to Acer49)

Post #: 43

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/1/2009 3:29:15 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elegantcdgoddess

A 14-year-old girl has died after being given a cervical cancer jab as part of a national immunisation programme, but the exact cause of death is unknown.

Huh, so if i get run over by 18 wheeler after taking aspirin, media will have huge headline "Person died after taking pain medications"

The media reaction is understandable given the circumstances. This is something which took place in the glare of the public and panic was a natural reaction.

(in reply to elegantcdgoddess)

Post #: 44

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/1/2009 3:55:32 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

DomKen, at which age do you think UMs should be allowed to gain sovereignty over their body? Will you wait until they turn 18, then simply hand responsibility over to somebody completely unprepared?
As I see it, that would be a recipe for disaster.
As most things, making decisions, especially the big, potentially life changing ones, has to be learned, trained. A 15 year old who has gradually been eased into taking responsibility for his/her own life and body since early childhood, might very well be able to make this decision.

I applaud every parent who has the strength to take a step back and hand the rudder over. It is among the hardest parts of our job.

Should the kid be told what the shot is for? Yes. Should the kid be able to veto it? No.

It is scientifically proven that people at that age do not have their full reasoning abilities and specifically still do not understand their personal mortality. This is why kids do things that the lucky ones tell funny stories about later and the unlucky ones have flowers and candles left at some accident site.

Saying to someone who doesn't grasp the fact that they can die "You can choose to get this shot that could save your life" and expecting them to make a good decision is baffling in the extreme.

(in reply to calamitysandra)

Post #: 45

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/1/2009 4:32:26 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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http://dprogram.net/2009/10/01/us-judge-rules-against-compulsory-vaccinations/

Side note- this is PER FLU vax.....

excerpt -> When the judge signs the Preliminary Injunction, it will stop the federal government from forcing anyone in any state to take flu vaccine against their will. It will also prevent a state or local government from forcibly vaccinating anyone, and forbid any person who is not vaccinated from being denied any services or constitutional rights. /snip

I am glad. Phewwwwwwwwwwwww. BTW I am recovering from the stomache flu- 4 days... LOL

< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 10/1/2009 4:33:53 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 46

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 12:01:42 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Should the kid be told what the shot is for? Yes. Should the kid be able to veto it? No.

It is scientifically proven that people at that age do not have their full reasoning abilities and specifically still do not understand their personal mortality. This is why kids do things that the lucky ones tell funny stories about later and the unlucky ones have flowers and candles left at some accident site.

Saying to someone who doesn't grasp the fact that they can die "You can choose to get this shot that could save your life" and expecting them to make a good decision is baffling in the extreme.

On the off chance that my question to you, DomKen, has been missed then I will ask you again.

From your stance and viewpoint then, do you feel that I am wrong for allowing my child to have the jab when I am against it and she has made the choice to have it?

If you find yourself unable to answer, it is all cool. I just was not sure if you were ignoring my question and instead focusing on responding to those whos children choose not to have it along with their parents.

the.dark.

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Post #: 47

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 3:37:39 AM

sirsholly

Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
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quote:

I just cannot understand why anyone would let a 15 year ol make life and decisions about anything. And don't give me that 'she's way more mature than her age' stuff. The fact is the parts of the brain involved in rational decision making don't get completely formed until the early to mid 20's. Until then most people simply cannot comprehend the concept of their own mortality.

so you think parents should be able to make decisions for their offspring until they are in their early to mid twenties?

Your argument takes away the rights of a teenager to say what happens to them. Frankly and thank heavens, the law does not agree with you in most cases

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(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 48

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 11:07:05 AM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Should the kid be told what the shot is for? Yes. Should the kid be able to veto it? No.

It is scientifically proven that people at that age do not have their full reasoning abilities and specifically still do not understand their personal mortality. This is why kids do things that the lucky ones tell funny stories about later and the unlucky ones have flowers and candles left at some accident site.

Saying to someone who doesn't grasp the fact that they can die "You can choose to get this shot that could save your life" and expecting them to make a good decision is baffling in the extreme.

On the off chance that my question to you, DomKen, has been missed then I will ask you again.

From your stance and viewpoint then, do you feel that I am wrong for allowing my child to have the jab when I am against it and she has made the choice to have it?

If you find yourself unable to answer, it is all cool. I just was not sure if you were ignoring my question and instead focusing on responding to those whos children choose not to have it along with their parents.

the.dark.

That is a case of liking the outcome but hating the process. The fact remains that adults generally make better decisions than children for very good physiological reasons. I'd much prefer it if parents made wise informed decsions but we can clearly see from this thread that parents cannot be counted on to acquire accurate real information on something as important as the first ever vaccine that prevents cancers.

I guess that is why the US decided to make a certain set of immunizations mandatory for school attendance. To force those who can't be bothered or who are easily fooled to get their children the vaccines that beyond any shadow of a doubt will save many orders of magnitude more chidlren than they will harm.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 49

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 11:20:32 AM

RCdc

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Thank you for responding Dom Ken I really do appriciate it.

I do wonder if you consider that children whom make their decision on their chosen subjects fall into the same category. After all, I am sure it is wonderful, 'safe' and financially secure for a child to study to become finance officers, doctors, and go into the political arenas.
But for those children who want to dedicate their lives to those living on the streets, or cooks and chefs or those who want to play a sport or musical instruments and their parents are against it... then what happens then?

What if it's in reverse? A child of a musician who simply wants to become a doctor and their parents push them into learning the piano. Are the parents in the right then? To choose what their child will be or should be?

I just find it a huge dis-service to a child to assume that all children are on the same mental wavelength. Or all adults for that matter.

the.dark.

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Post #: 50

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 12:53:54 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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You're misunderstanding the point I'm making.

People younger than their early 20's do not have completely mature brains. In particular the parts of the brain having to do with decision making aren't fully formed. Studies have shown that this partly expresses itself as the inability to grasp the concept of personal mortality, IOW these young people do not really and truly grasp that they can die. Most people, if they're honest with themselves, can easily enough recall incidences from their youth that show that to have been true for themselves.

Therefore children making life defining decisions should be at least monitored closely by responsible parties and in matters of life and death probably shouldn't be the one making the decision at all.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 51

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 12:57:22 PM

TurboJugend

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quote:

In particular the parts of the brain having to do with decision making aren't fully formed.

thought that was experience

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Post #: 52

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 1:16:14 PM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
In particular the parts of the brain having to do with decision making aren't fully formed.

That must be the reason why some parents chain their child for tens of years to the toilet: to wait until the parts of the brain that have to do with decision making - i.e. the whole brain, since all neurons make some kinds of decision - have matured! It's a bit odd, though, and in contradiction with our expectations, that when such abused children are discovered and unchained from the toilet by the police, that they are nearly all imbeciles, incapable of making any decisions.

Can it be because they never used those decision making parts of the brain? Nah! You must be right.

I remember considering whether to stick my fingers into the electrical outlets. Those tiny holes were so intriguing! I knew that it would cause my death, though. So eventually, I decided not to. I must have been somewhere between one and three years old.

Then also there were the many times that I crossed a street. I made the decision to always watch out for cars.

Once I rode on my bike and got hit by a car, resulting in a concussion, a dozen years of severe, intermittent head-aches, and nine weeks in the hospital. I now suspect that it probably was the result of Divine intervention.

So yeah, one might chain their child to the toilet, or let them run loose with all the consequences: climb on the table, fall from the table and break their little necks.
I know how I would raise one: not chained to the toilet!

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 53

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 4:05:55 PM

IrishMist

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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're misunderstanding the point I'm making.

People younger than their early 20's do not have completely mature brains. In particular the parts of the brain having to do with decision making aren't fully formed. Studies have shown that this partly expresses itself as the inability to grasp the concept of personal mortality, IOW these young people do not really and truly grasp that they can die. Most people, if they're honest with themselves, can easily enough recall incidences from their youth that show that to have been true for themselves.

Therefore children making life defining decisions should be at least monitored closely by responsible parties and in matters of life and death probably shouldn't be the one making the decision at all.

I am sorry, but, I have to disagree with you. I don't care what the 'studies' show or how much data you care to throw out. That data, and those studies have not 'studied' EVERY teenager in the world. And citing a general consensus is a cop out and cowardly.

Can my teenager make life/death altering decisions? I don't know.I do know that she has experienced what it is to take a life. I do know that she has witnessed what it is like to watch another take pleasure in the taking of life. Since the age of ten she has volunteered on a ranch working with horses. At twelve, she was helping the local vets in their offices; something she still does without pay. She helps at homeless shelters, she tutors at the elementary school one day a week.

Thankfully, she was too young to remember her father dying; but she remembers my mother, and two sisters all dying from cancer. She was there FOR them at that time, by her request; and it is my belief that she came away from the experience better for it.

No one knows my child better than I do. No one knows what she is capable of better than SHE does. And I am not sure about you DomKen...but I trust my daughter and I trust IN her decisions.

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Post #: 54

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 5:20:55 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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And that is the trouble with the situation. An adult who doesn't like the facts so she declares that they don't apply to her situation.

So let me lay this out for you, I've studied the HPV vaccine in depth. Not by reading some bullshit artist slinging woo to sell some vitamins or get an expert testimony gig at a product liability lawsuit but I studied the actual science done on the vaccine and the frankly stunning success of the vaccine to date.

Just one sample of how truly safe this vaccine is, no one has ever died as a result of this injection. No one at all anywhere. Which is actually unheard of. A tiny percentage of people die from complicatiosn after getting every other vaccine out there. But not a single one due to the HPV vaccine. The most serious compliaction that is definitely occuring above the statistical norms is blood clots and those are associated with people with other risk factors for blood clots. In the US that totals up to about 26 million doses administered and no deaths and only about 1000 reports of complications serious enough to require hospitilization. That is 1 serious adverse reaction for every 26,000 doses administered.

Now compare that to the benefits, the 4 strains involved cause most of the cases of genital warts and 70% of cervical cancers. Now it turns out that many years ago I asked a question in lab that annoyed my professor and now know far more than I ever wanted to about cervical cancer and in particular the story of Henrietta Lacks. Suffice it say to that she died but the cervical cancer that killed her lives on in labs all over the world. If a woman develops even the earliest stage of cervical cancer the present standard of care is a hysterectomy. At present the 5 year survival rate for cervical cancer overall is only 72%.

So balance 1 chance in 26,000 of a serious blood clot versus stopping one of the fastest spreading most life changing cancers out there.

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 55

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 5:24:11 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
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On vax- if suppose you can absorb- pick a number- in a lifetime. Then one would want to wisely allocate which ones....

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Post #: 56

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 6:22:01 PM

gentlemandom55

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Her death was due to a malignant tumor - NOT the vaccine. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091001/hl_afp/healthcancerbritainvaccine_20091001164026

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Post #: 57

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 7:11:47 PM

IrishMist

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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

And that is the trouble with the situation. An adult who doesn't like the facts so she declares that they don't apply to her situation.

DomKen; perhaps you should go back, read what you wrote and what I actually responded to.

The post I responded to was not in relation to the statistical possibly of deaths, complications, pro's or cons of the vaccine. It was in response to this:

quote:

Therefore children making life defining decisions should be at least monitored closely by responsible parties and in matters of life and death probably shouldn't be the one making the decision at all.

Now...let's get something else straight. I am not AGAINST the vaccine. From what I have seen in medical journals, it has promising results. I don't deny that. And I know that the possiblity of adverse reactions is no greater than any other vaccine that is given to us and our children as we age through life (MMR and the booster both hospitilized me ).

I am hesitant because THERE JUST IS NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION on the long term effects to convince me that getting this is better than not. If they could show postive FACT that 20 to 30 years AFTER receiving this vaccine, that the receiver DOES NOT contract cervical cancer due to the virus; I would be the first in line...NO MATTER IF MY TEENAGER AGREED WITH ME OR NOT.
However, they can't. And until they do, I remain on the side that says HELL NO.

It would appear that we stand on different sides of this. And that's ok. I applaud your devotion to this cause. However, I resent your implication that I am killing my child simply because I respect her thoughts and opinions. My only response to that is

Fuck you. You don't know me, you don't know her. You don't matter. So fuck you. Go on with your tirade, be happy about it...

I pity you though.

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Post #: 58

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 8:59:11 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
I am hesitant because THERE JUST IS NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION on the long term effects to convince me that getting this is better than not. If they could show postive FACT that 20 to 30 years AFTER receiving this vaccine, that the receiver DOES NOT contract cervical cancer due to the virus; I would be the first in line...NO MATTER IF MY TEENAGER AGREED WITH ME OR NOT.
However, they can't. And until they do, I remain on the side that says HELL NO.

And this is the truly pathetic part. You claim to be well informed but you aren't.

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY THE HPV VACCINE CAN CAUSE CERVICAL CANCER. The vaccine contains 'virus like particles' (VPL) not live or attenuated virus. These VPL are externally identical to the HPV virus but contain no genetic material. Therefore there is no possible way that the vaccine could result in the virus genetic material getting into the cervical cells and causing the cancer. If you had done even cursory research on the subject you would know this.

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 59

RE: Girl dies after HPV Jab. - 10/2/2009 10:20:03 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
I am hesitant because THERE JUST IS NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION on the long term effects to convince me that getting this is better than not. If they could show postive FACT that 20 to 30 years AFTER receiving this vaccine, that the receiver DOES NOT contract cervical cancer due to the virus; I would be the first in line...NO MATTER IF MY TEENAGER AGREED WITH ME OR NOT.
However, they can't. And until they do, I remain on the side that says HELL NO.

And this is the truly pathetic part. You claim to be well informed but you aren't.

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY THE HPV VACCINE CAN CAUSE CERVICAL CANCER. The vaccine contains 'virus like particles' (VPL) not live or attenuated virus. These VPL are externally identical to the HPV virus but contain no genetic material. Therefore there is no possible way that the vaccine could result in the virus genetic material getting into the cervical cells and causing the cancer. If you had done even cursory research on the subject you would know this.

*shakes head sadly*
It's obvious that the disconnect here is the fact that you obviously do not know how to read or comprehend what you can read.

Such a shame to.

*shrug*
Oh well.
Life goes on

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Post #: 60

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