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RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/12/2009 8:40:26 PM

JonasTellas

Posts: 25
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline

So ok looking back into the pages I can't exactly pin anyone which said I got to agree with their perspective. More so I found people just saying what they feel a dom shouldn't do and some people saying what a dom can do. Mostly I get everyone agrees a dom can do whatever he wants but he has to know people will evaluate his acts and judge him accordingly, and adding to this is the most important person who'll be doing the judging of his actions is his sub. The subs feelings on his actions is all that matters. And no one else is affected and so no one really should have a say or rather, no one should say what they feel should rule. Of course everyone is going to have an opinion just don't go expect everyone to follow your opinions. So really it comes down what his subs thinks of his choices and actions. And so if his sub is fine with her dom kissing her feet, or bowing, it follows then that's between them. If his submissive finds his feet kissing too symbolic of something else and she feels he's worshipping/serving her, it follows that thats her choice to feel such way too. So I guess that everyone is saying the same thing but in different ways.

Why switching rocks balls! Hellz yes.

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 201

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/12/2009 10:13:53 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

You may want to improve your communication skills, as it was seen as provocative by others, myself included. My perception was not skewed by any previous contact between the two of you either, as I had not read any topics before that one, that the two of you had engaged in communication.

Since perceptions are different based upon where one is standing, the facts cannot be determined accurately, so her perceptions are in line with a few others.

You would be well served to get definitions of words straight before employing them.

Now were there some comments you had about the OP? I believe you directed me to that when I engaged you a few posts back, and now here you are not apply your own standard. Just so you know what word should be used for that, it is called hypocricy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia&, hey, Isaac, when you tried to chase after Leadership, to his thread in General, & start arguing with him, that was not an example of: "Jumping on a thread out of personal need to avenge" a masterful slap down, is it?

Actually, my first post to him in that thread wasn't an attack at all. I complimented him for his introspection over the word "slave", which was timed quite well with our exchange the previous evening. He chose to keep up the hostility.

You would be well served in getting your facts right before employing them, Kia.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SimplyIsaac)

Post #: 202

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/12/2009 10:45:03 PM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline

Orion & Leadership, I feel I owe you guys a bit of an apology. I feel like I 'dragged' you into this pissing contest I'm engaging in with Isaac. & I feel, yeah, apologetic about that. I'm gonna try to avoid doin' that in the future . . .. .

Oh, Isaac . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
I can't wait 'til you remonstrate me for grammar or spelling or typoes . . .. . .

I didn't mean to turn you on there, Kia.

Um, are you sure about what you're saying there, or is your Uncle Siggy slip showin'?

remonstrate |riˈmänˌstrāt; ˈremən-|
verb [ intrans. ]
make a forcefully reproachful protest : he turned angrily to remonstrate with Tommy | [with direct speech ] “You don't mean that,” she remonstrated.

While it's true that I do have a bit of a vocabulary fetish, & opportunities to flex my linguistic skills do kinda get me excited (so many things get me excited, lol), &, yeah, 'remonstrate' is a kinda sexy soundin' word, but I'm not sure what you thought 'remonstrate' means.

There's this thing called a dictionary. Most computers have them 'built in', ya might look into that. I believe they are also a feature of this new-fangled intratubes thing everyone's talkin' 'bout . . ... . lol

(in reply to SimplyIsaac)

Post #: 203

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/12/2009 11:37:36 PM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

So ok looking back into the pages I can't exactly pin anyone which said I got to agree with their perspective. More so I found people just saying what they feel a dom shouldn't do and some people saying what a dom can do

It's all in the choice of words for me, Jonas. If you look again, you will find that several posters were making absolute statements, rather than expressing opinions. I have no issue with anyone who says, "If my partner did XYZ, I would leave", nor anyone who says, "I think most subs would see XYZ as a submissive act, and a Dom who does it may lose the respect of his sub", or anything along those lines. Compare that with these tidbits:

quote:

Doms don't bow, doms don't kiss the feet of their subs.

quote:

What's a dom doing bowing and kissing feet? Might as well be a sub then.

quote:

A dom can be used as a toilet if he loves it, but ask his submissive to do it and his dominance and rank status and dom essence WILL BE DILUTED in the subs eyes, regardless if he can do it or not. Come on, kissing a foot is a submissive and respecting act.

quote:

No one here is saying you can't kiss the feet of your sub girl, but why would you? She's the one who wants to do the serving and I guarantee you if you start down the road of serving your sub, in the back of her mind she'll start questioning who is serving who?

As I said before, my issue is largely with those who express their opinions as proven fact, although I also wonder about those who are willing to label a given act as "dominant" or "submissive" outside of the context in which it occurs.

As an example- this past weekend, my Dom gave me a backrub and brought me a drink. To some, that would be enough to accuse him of being submissive to me. Now, let's add the context:
He gave me a backrub because I was in so much pain that I couldn't turn my head. It so happens that he has the medical qualifications to deal with said pain, and did so. As a result, he had lots of fun playing with a toy that wasn't broken.
On the drink front- yep, he brought me one... while I was in the specific position he required for use and under orders not to move. He could have let me up, but chose to keep me ass-up where he wanted me, and walk to the kitchen himself.
Personally, I see neither act as submissive, although others may disagree. Fortunately for me, he doesn't care what others think. If he did, and started submitting to others' opinions of appropriately Domly behaviour, THEN we would have a problem.

< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 10/12/2009 11:47:07 PM >

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to JonasTellas)

Post #: 204

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/12/2009 11:48:36 PM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline

There was also a whole line of reasoning that ran along the lines of if the dom was below the submissive, or if dom head bent toward sub feet, that sorta thinking, which if taken to ridiculous extremes would seem more restrictive on the dom than the most extreme posture collar .. . . ..

[sarcasm]But none of us here have taken any examples to extremes, I'm sure, just a nice, middle ground, nuanced convo, lol . . .. [/sarcastic aside]

& I especially keep thinking of this dom I knew who had a real thing for lying on the ground. It was a spiritual, gettin'-grounded kinda thing, literally. It was very cool, at the time . .. .. . tsk, tsk, tsk . . . . . & he seemed so domly . ... lol . . . . .

Okay, so there was still some more sarcasm in there . . . .

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 205

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/12/2009 11:55:34 PM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

There was also a whole line of reasoning that ran along the lines of if the dom was below the submissive, or if dom head bent toward sub feet, that sorta thinking, which if taken to ridiculous extremes would seem more restrictive on the dom than the most extreme posture collar .. .

I saw that, and couldn't help but think that, if the problem is the sub's feet being below the Dom.... those folks need to get more inventive with their sexual positions....

< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 10/13/2009 12:00:46 AM >

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 206

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 6:19:50 AM

JonasTellas

Posts: 25
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

If you look again, you will find that several posters were making absolute statements, rather than expressing opinions. I have no issue with anyone who says, "If my partner did XYZ, I would leave", nor anyone who says, "I think most subs would see XYZ as a submissive act, and a Dom who does it may lose the respect of his sub", or anything along those lines. Compare that with these tidbits:

quote:

Doms don't bow, doms don't kiss the feet of their subs.

quote:

What's a dom doing bowing and kissing feet? Might as well be a sub then.

quote:

A dom can be used as a toilet if he loves it, but ask his submissive to do it and his dominance and rank status and dom essence WILL BE

DILUTED in the subs eyes, regardless if he can do it or not. Come on, kissing a foot is a submissive and respecting act.

quote:

No one here is saying you can't kiss the feet of your sub girl, but why would you? She's the one who wants to do the serving and I guarantee you if you start down the road of serving your sub, in the back of her mind she'll start questioning who is serving who?

Hi, fair enough, I read a bunch of absolutes, but truthfully I read them coming from both sides: "Doms don't kiss feet" and then the other side: "Doms can do whatever they want". So, unfortunately as it is here, neither views included the clarifiers like: "From my perspective" or "In my opinion", though I did find sissy-lover had written up: "[In my book] doms don't ...". Did you just happen to miss that or just decide to ignore it? In either case, it's there. And so, either way, both sides are guilty of omitting clarifiers like: "In my opinion." Seems I may be in the minority but I think it's common for people just to say in an absolute way: "Doms can do whatever they want", but leave off "[In my opinion], Doms can do whatever they want". As someone who's pretty good at drawing conclusions, I tend to assume their just talking about themselves anyway unless they say: Doms don't kiss feet and everyone feels this to be true and if they don't, they're wrong. Only then do I think the poster is talking in truly absolute terms, but I don't think anyone is really that out of touch with reality to think their opinion applies to everyone. Life is an absolute perspective, I guess.

In my opinion, if my dom starts to kiss my feet or bow to me, those certain types of behaviors are symbolic of service and worship and they would affect me and my feelings of submission for him. In my opinion, it's my job to bow and kiss his feet, not the other way around. In my opinion, submissives do the feet kissing and bowing. So I do respect your views that those behaviors from a dom are acceptable. Just for me, they are not.

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 207

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 9:05:07 AM

SimplyIsaac

Posts: 376
Joined: 12/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You may want to improve your communication skills, as it was seen as provocative by others, myself included. My perception was not skewed by any previous contact between the two of you either, as I had not read any topics before that one, that the two of you had engaged in communication.

I won't apologize for being "provocative". If my writing style offends you so much, hit the ignore button please. I believe I offered a suggestion as to what "skewed" you to comment in a thread that you didn't bother to sound off in until recently. Hypocrisy is in equal measure here, then I guess.

I know how important it can be to protect our online buddies. I understand that. But if you want to keep making this post about me, let's carry this discussion to email instead. I think everyone has had their fill of me vs. you & Kia.

< Message edited by SimplyIsaac -- 10/13/2009 9:19:04 AM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 208

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 9:13:20 AM

SimplyIsaac

Posts: 376
Joined: 12/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
There's this thing called a dictionary. Most computers have them 'built in', ya might look into that. I believe they are also a feature of this new-fangled intratubes thing everyone's talkin' 'bout . . ... . lol

There's that keen eye for irony showing.

I'm aware you see me as attacking you. I'm commenting on your self-admitted pleasure in doing so. Step away from the dictionary and review posts #197 & #160, or your posting patterns throughout this thread.

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 209

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 9:24:33 AM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline

For me, this is kind of a definition of 'domliness':

"Doms can do whatever they want"

In discussions here, we also don't regularly add a bunch of caveats about how "Doms can do whatever they want" is within the law, in a pre-negotiated manner, in a consensual relationship, etc, etc . .. . . Do you really wanna read thru the pages of legalese language that would be necessary to cover every contingency? & even if you do, how many other people are gonna wanna read all that?

&, yeah, I'd way love if people made much much much greater use of all those quibbly qualifiers, but that same argument applies. If everyone did scrupulously apply all the contingencies & etc all the time, or even, say, 90% of that, well . .. .. Frankly, I like the flame wars more. They're far more entertaining . . . . .

& now that I contemplate, I think that's part of what bores me about all the earnest convos over on FL, so many postings are full of disclaimers & every conceivable qualifier that can help avoid conflict . . .. & it gets tedious . . . . . . & data points vary, lol . . . ..

& I'm more than a little confused that "Doms can do whatever they want" is considered to be one side of an argument & that there is some substantive other side to that . .. . .

In this case, the alternate seems to be "Doms must pick off some menu of appropriately domly activities, demeanors, attitudes, & etc" . .. . . &, to me, that seems not very domly at all . . .. & sounds, to me, an awful lot like submitting to some list . . . .

Um, I know this dom & he brings his sub boy coffee in bed, every morning. Service, right? Wrong. He controls when his boy gets up via bringing that coffee. The dom's the kinda fuss-budget guy who adores cooking & being a homebody, & he is uber-domly, no ifs, &s, or buts. He runs the relationship. His partner is pretty sub.

It's one of the big problems of shaping arguments into this either-or thing (especially when the arguments are 'extremified'), with the resulting constructs going erroneous in that some artificial alternative is implied, but it's not an actual or reasonably plausible reality -- aka, all the postulating of some dom who was gonna engage in a combo of: foot worship, receiving watersports, fetching drinks, massaging, & etc, thus undermining her/his domliness . . . . .

Taking hypotheticals about human BDSM sexuality to extremes has two potentially relevant insights to offer: (a) the model fails, the paradigm collapses, or, in our specific case, the dom inverts into submission, or (b) it becomes a question of compatibility . . . . . & around here, that last seems to be the less-intuitive but more robust answer to the question . . . . .

The very act of hypothesizing this 'subbie Dom' implies that there can be a 'dommie Sub' looking for that perfect match . . . . . See how neatly that works . . . . .

There's also something about how there's a bigger power context into which BDSM interactions & relationships fits, that in our broader lives there's probably darn few of us who are exclusively dominant or submissive in all aspects of our lives. Most are somewhere in between.

Take, for example, the highly competitive & (in my eyes) uber-domly world of Fortune 500 CEOs. They run huge companies, hire & fire thousands, make millions & billions of whatever currency & are clearly leaning toward that domly end of the scale .. .. . & yet, they serve. They serve their stockholders, first & foremost. Those stockholder interests are 'mental slavedrivers' in those CEO's heads, I'd betcha . . . . They serve their customers. & to some extent, they are as much servants of their employees as they are bosses. Sometimes submission & domination are as much a matter of perspective as anything else . . . . ..

My biggest argument in this thread, outside of trying to have some exchange of info on the topic of doms licking feet, is that most people most likely live in that nuanced middle rather than the extremes & it's probably more useful, tho' less entertainingly argumentative, to discuss mostly those middle spaces . .. . .

Personally, I think this thread would have been an appropriate place to discuss that laundry list of domly / subbly behaviors . .. . Tho, it also could make a thread on its own . . . . lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: JonasTellas

Hi, fair enough, I read a bunch of absolutes, but truthfully I read them coming from both sides: "Doms don't kiss feet" and then the other side: "Doms can do whatever they want". So, unfortunately as it is here, neither views included the clarifiers like: "From my perspective" or "In my opinion", though I did find sissy-lover had written up: "[In my book] doms don't ...". Did you just happen to miss that or just decide to ignore it? In either case, it's there. And so, either way, both sides are guilty of omitting clarifiers like: "In my opinion." Seems I may be in the minority but I think it's common for people just to say in an absolute way: "Doms can do whatever they want", but leave off "[In my opinion], Doms can do whatever they want". As someone who's pretty good at drawing conclusions, I tend to assume their just talking about themselves anyway unless they say: Doms don't kiss feet and everyone feels this to be true and if they don't, they're wrong. Only then do I think the poster is talking in truly absolute terms, but I don't think anyone is really that out of touch with reality to think their opinion applies to everyone. Life is an absolute perspective, I guess.

In my opinion, if my dom starts to kiss my feet or bow to me, those certain types of behaviors are symbolic of service and worship and they would affect me and my feelings of submission for him. In my opinion, it's my job to bow and kiss his feet, not the other way around. In my opinion, submissives do the feet kissing and bowing. So I do respect your views that those behaviors from a dom are acceptable. Just for me, they are not.

(in reply to JonasTellas)

Post #: 210

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 9:49:45 AM

JonasTellas

Posts: 25
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline

Hi, I hope you'll forgive me for asking you to do this but in reading through your extensive post, I can't make out what your point was. Is there anyway to rephrase it is more concisely or less wordy when you have the time? I'm trying to see what you're saying.

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 211

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 9:52:10 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

"Doms can do whatever they want"

Thats the bottom line, rule the world, essence of her post.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to JonasTellas)

Post #: 212

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 10:18:56 AM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline

lol

Thanks, Ron.

I can do no better, Ron is one of the Kings of Succinct . . . . . The rest is just yadda-yadda-yadda, hehehe . . . . . ..

&, my greatest, most humble, abject, & flowery apologies, Jonas, but I mostly don't come in an abridged version . . . . . & I adore blathering on & on & on & on & on . . . .. *shrugs*

Why, Jonas, did you think I wrote that just for you? Aw, that's special . .. . . Reading my text is a purely optional experience & you have my permission to opt out at any time . .. . . But thanks for participating!

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 213

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 10:25:28 AM

JonasTellas

Posts: 25
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Why, Jonas, did you think I wrote that just for you?

No one said you wrote that just for me. I don't need a reminder that reading your text is optional. But thanks nevertheless!

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 214

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 10:27:36 AM

JonasTellas

Posts: 25
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline

I can't find a single person in this entire thread that argues that. Even though they technically can, should they be worshipping the feet of their slaves? That's the crux of the philosophical question to that general rule in this thread.

My dom won't keep his submissives around for long if he decides he wants to start kissing our feet or massage our muscles. It's too symbolic of worship for our preferences.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 215

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 10:41:22 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I can't find a single person in this entire thread that argues that. Even though they technically can, should they be worshipping the feet of their slaves? That's the crux of the philosophical question to that general rule in this thread.

perhaps you missed Master's post back on page #2:

quote:

...What is 'worship' but focus? A dominant can focus on whatever he wants for his pleasure and maintain his/her dominance. He/she should be confident in doing so regardless of how its perceived by those outside the dynamic shared with the submissive partner...

(in reply to JonasTellas)

Post #: 216

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 10:57:51 AM

JonasTellas

Posts: 25
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline

Hi, So I do feel to be on your page generally. But I do have to say imo there's just something utterly too symbolic to feet kissing and that kind of behavior out of our dom would send us submissive women out the door. Massaging our muscles, on second thought, is okay as long as its once in a while. But kissing our feet, Yuck - that's too symbolic of worship and adoration. I don't really disagree that a dom shouldn't worry about what others think, he SHOULD worry about what his subs think of his acts. We as the subs need to be inspired to submit so a foot kissing dom would not inspire our submission. Sure, sure, sure I AGREE THAT A DOM CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS. A dom can wear adult diapers and dom us in them if he wanted, but if he wanted to keep his subs, he better not even think about it. If our dom started to worship our feet, FOR US, FEET KISSING IS TOO SYMBOLIC OF WORSHIP AND ADORATION AND WE WOULD WALK OUT ON OUR DOM.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 217

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 11:20:43 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

...We as the subs need to be inspired to submit so a foot kissing dom would not inspire our submission...

completely understand. for those subs who need to be inspired, perhaps their Dom doing something they don't consider Domly isn't a good idea.

some subs don't need to be inspired, though, and some also find it repulsive to be the one to dictate when and how often their partner will engage in the activities they enjoy...regardless of what those activities are...or how others have labelled them (ie: a submissive act vs. a dominant act or symbolic submissiveness).

(in reply to JonasTellas)

Post #: 218

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 11:21:54 AM

SimplyIsaac

Posts: 376
Joined: 12/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I can't find a single person in this entire thread that argues that. Even though they technically can, should they be worshipping the feet of their slaves? That's the crux of the philosophical question to that general rule in this thread.

perhaps you missed Master's post back on page #2:

quote:

...What is 'worship' but focus? A dominant can focus on whatever he wants for his pleasure and maintain his/her dominance. He/she should be confident in doing so regardless of how its perceived by those outside the dynamic shared with the submissive partner...

I think Jonas was referring to the "Doms can do whatever they want" idea. No one, technically, (that I have seen) argues that point.

As for worship, I will say your master has a pretty inventive take on the word.

wor⋅ship
–noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.

–verb (used with object)

6. to render religious reverence and homage to.
7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

Synonyms:
3. honor, homage, adoration, idolatry. 7. honor, venerate, revere, adore, glorify, idolize, adulate.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 219

RE: Foot worshipping Dom - 10/13/2009 11:32:56 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

...What is 'worship' but focus?

quote:

As for worship, I will say your master has a pretty inventive take on the word.

You can do any of the things provided by your text book definition without focus?
quote:

As for worship, I will say your master has a pretty inventive take on the word.

He has some inventive takes on lots of words that we use. His take on dominant is "the one who is dominating". this slave tends to agree with Him on that and she has an affinity for the term "shot-caller".

not participating in an activity with your submissive partner that you personally enjoy because of how "someone else" (either your submissive partner or the masses or Webster's) is going to perceive you doesn't sound, to us, like dominating your partner.

for the record, we currently disagree with each other's definitions of the words "yield" and "vanilla", but we have figured out it's a cultural thing...and not too terribly important.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/13/2009 11:51:21 AM >

(in reply to SimplyIsaac)

Post #: 220

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