Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 9:10:09 PM)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091003/ap_on_go_pr_wh/eu_us_afghanistan

At least the trip to Copenhagen to pitch for Chicago to host the 2016 Olympics wasn't a complete, humiliating waste of time and money.  President Obama met with General McCrystal for a whole 25 minutes (does that include posing for the pictures, do you think?) about a fairly critical decision he so far hasn't made, and keeps stalling on making.

Afghanistan.  Do we stay, or do we get the hell out?  There is no "present" button, Mr. President, and the facts aren't going to change, no matter how many meetings and conferences you call. 

We elected this man to be our Chief Executive and Commander in Chief, why is he running and hiding from making a decision?  The only difference next week, or next month, is going to be how much more blood has been spilled onto his legacy.

My own thoughts on what we should be doing there have been aired plenty of times, and I don't care where the majority of conservative pundits are on this.  The subject here is President Obama's apparent inability to make up his fucking mind. 



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 9:31:45 PM)

quote:

We elected this man to be our Chief Executive and Commander in Chief, why is he running and hiding from making a decision? The only difference next week, or next month, is going to be how much more blood has been spilled onto his legacy.

My own thoughts on what we should be doing there have been aired plenty of times, and I don't care where the majority of conservative pundits are on this. The subject here is President Obama's apparent inability to make up his fucking mind.
ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


Yes, Heretic, we've all seen how well things work out when a president makes snap decisions about complicated matters. I think it's just awful that Obama is considering the options before he commits to a course of action. A real leader would have already made a decision and if it turned out to be a disaster, why just change the objectives and say we're winning.




TheHeretic -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 9:41:04 PM)

Living up to your nic, again, I see, Spinner.  [;)]  The facts aren't going to change.  Afghanistan isn't going to stop being the graveyards of empires.  We aren't going to miraculously grow a supply line into the country.  Is this sort of wavering going to be what happens when they wake his ass up at 3:00 a.m. and he has to answer "right fucking now?"



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 9:46:32 PM)

quote:

Living up to your nic, again, I see, Spinner. The facts aren't going to change. Afghanistan isn't going to stop being the graveyards of empires. We aren't going to miraculously grow a supply line into the country. Is this sort of wavering going to be what happens when they wake his ass up at 3:00 a.m. and he has to answer "right fucking now?"
ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


The last time a president had a judgment to make "right fucking now" he spent about 10 minutes finishing up a good read of "My Pet Goat". And then got us into two disastrous wars. There is a time for "right now" and a time for consideration. I don't expect you to acknowledge the difference. You're agenda has been set and clear for quite some time now.




TheHeretic -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 10:44:28 PM)

My "agenda," Spinner, is the continued health and well being of my country, which I consider the best hope for the rest of the planet, and our species.  A President of that country, perceived as spineless and wavering, does not serve that agenda, no.

BTW, the decision that followed the reading of "My Pet Goat" was to topple the Taliban by means of US airpower, and special forces on the ground, working with the local people.  It was the long, drawn out process that got us into nation-building and the whole Iraq fiasco.




Ialdabaoth -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 10:47:09 PM)

:( When you guys start arguing like this, it makes it REALLY hard for anyone to get any actual thinking done about the topic.



TheHeretic -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 10:49:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

:( When you guys start arguing like this, it makes it REALLY hard for anyone to get any actual thinking done about the topic.


Didn't you see me complimenting Spinner on living up to his nic?  Discussing the topic is the LAST thing some would want to happen here.  [;)]



Kirata -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 10:51:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

The last time a president had a judgment to make "right fucking now" he spent about 10 minutes finishing up a good read of "My Pet Goat".

Ten minutes, because he didn't want to alarm the children... and you bash him for that.

[sm=banghead.gif]

K.



Ialdabaoth -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 11:02:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

:( When you guys start arguing like this, it makes it REALLY hard for anyone to get any actual thinking done about the topic.


Didn't you see me complimenting Spinner on living up to his nic?  Discussing the topic is the LAST thing some would want to happen here.  [;)]


I... well, what if we back away from the topic for a moment, and talk about what general philosophical guidelines might inform such decisions?


Here's a few:

1. Nationalism vs. Globalism -
a) At what scale do the rights of individuals trump the rights of nations, and at what scale do the rights of nations trump the rights of individuals?
b) What does it mean for something to be a country? At what point does an entity deserve recognition?
c.1) If a country is mistreating its own citizens, when do other countries have the right to interfere?
c.2) If a country is mistreating other country's citizens, when do those other countries have the right to interfere?
c.3) If a country is mistreating other country's citizens, when do uninvolved other countries have the right to interfere?
d) Where does my loyalty to my country end?
d.1) What actions committed or attempted by my government are proper to question, and what actions are improper to question?
d.2) What actions committed or attempted by my government are proper to resist, and what actions are improper to resist?
d.3) What actions committed or attempted by my government justify force to resist them, and what actions are improper to use force to resist?

2. Values vs. Multiculturalism -
a) Whose values should be applied to global political situations, and why?
b) What causes values to be correct or incorrect? Are there "meta-values", and if so, are there "meta-meta-values"?
b.1) How far meta- should we take this question, and why?
c) Does might make right?
c.1) If not, then why do situations often require force to "correct" them?
c.2) If yes, then where's Henry Kissinger when you need him?

3. Religion vs. Secularism
a) Can my God beat up your God?
b) If God is on my side, should I destroy my enemies? If God is on my enemies' side, should I be destroyed?
c) If I am being destroyed by my enemies, does that necessarily mean God is on their side?
d) If I believe God is on my side, and my enemies believe God is on their side, how do we tell who is right?
d.1) How do we know whether this is the correct method of telling who is right?
d.1.a) How do we know whether this is the correct method of telling what the correct method of telling who is right?
d.1.a.1) How far meta- should we take this question?



TheHeretic -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 11:16:43 PM)

And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, if there are, in fact, angels?  Fish or cut bait; shit, or get off the pot.

If he is just now figuring out this shit is complicated, that his decisions will be life and death for the people he commands, perhaps he should have given as much thought to whether he was competent to serve in the office he ran for.  Too late now, huh?



Ialdabaoth -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 11:21:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, if there are, in fact, angels?


Well, I don't see how that question is actually relevant to the issue at hand, frankly.

quote:

  Fish or cut bait; shit, or get off the pot.


Yes, that's precisely what we're debating right now. It's just that half of us are shouting "FISH!" and the other half are shouting "CUT BAIT!", so it seems like it might be worthwhile to stop shouting for a few minutes and discuss WHY we think one or the other is preferrable, y'know?

quote:

If he is just now figuring out this shit is complicated, that his decisions will be life and death for the people he commands, perhaps he should have given as much thought to whether he was competent to serve in the office he ran for.  Too late now, huh?


I'm... not sure if that's precisely what's going on, here.



Kirata -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 11:49:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I'm... not sure if that's precisely what's going on, here.

I think what's going on here is that Americans are fed up with long drawn-out conflicts that have no clear resolution. As a consequence, Obama knows that he is faced with having to either commit the forces necessary to the mission, or else wind things down over there. And it seems to me that he simply can't decide which course of action carries the greater political risk, so he has determined to do nothing at least until the political cost of that course of action begins to approximate the risks of the others. Then, he'll do whatever seem best at that point in time for his own political future.

K.







Ialdabaoth -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/2/2009 11:51:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I think what's going on here is that Americans are fed up with long drawn-out conflicts that have no clear resolution. As a consequence, Obama knows that he is faced with having to either commit the forces necessary to the mission, or else wind things down over there. And it seems to me that he simply can't decide which course of action carries the greater political risk, so he's going to do nothing at least until the political cost of that course of action begins to approximate the risks of the others. Then, he'll do whatever seem best at that point in time for his own political future.


On the other hand, I AM sure that this is part of what he's doing. However, I'm not sure if that makes up any more of his decision-making weight than it has for any other President.



Politesub53 -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/3/2009 2:29:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

BTW, the decision that followed the reading of "My Pet Goat" was to topple the Taliban by means of US airpower, and special forces on the ground, working with the local people.  It was the long, drawn out process that got us into nation-building and the whole Iraq fiasco.




I know I am a pain repeating this, there were no Taliban in Iraq, it is a seperate issue, or should have been. No debate, long or short, was needed to see this. Bush got into Iraq for who knows the what reason, nothing to do with Afghanistan.



MarsBonfire -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/3/2009 7:01:24 AM)

Gee, you don't suppose that maybe Obama's waiting for the Afghan elections to be over, and thus know if we'll have the growing support of the new government... and thus the people... do you?

The only time we started to make any headway in Iraq was because of "The Awakening" where the locals got fed up with these BS outsiders fucking with their country, and joined up with US forces in ejecting them from their lands. Same thing in Afghanistan. We need to know if we have local support Otherwise we might just as well pack up, head home, and if they make the slightest move against us in the future, bomb the fuck out of them from the air.

(See conservative teabaggers? I left my post on a positive note for you.)  ;)



RacerJim -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/3/2009 7:16:26 AM)

If I were in the military now, and especially if I were in harm's way, I would not obey one frickin' order from anyone until "my" CiC made up his frickin' mind...one way or the other.  As Lee Iococa said: "Lead or follow. Just get out of my way."  Obama saying "Present" doesn't frickin' cut it.   



mnottertail -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/3/2009 7:17:12 AM)

I really don't know about afghanistan, our moves should be in Pakistan and be mostly diplomatic and training of paki forces based.

Ron



Musicmystery -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/3/2009 7:21:41 AM)

quote:

President Obama met with General McCrystal for a whole 25 minutes


Hey Rich,

They have cool new ways to communicate these days, even when they aren't physically in the same room.

Some of these are even available to consumers! Check it out!



Musicmystery -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/3/2009 7:26:22 AM)

quote:

The facts aren't going to change.  Afghanistan isn't going to stop being the graveyards of empires.  We aren't going to miraculously grow a supply line into the country.


My speculation is that Cheney deliberately got us entangled in Iraq and Afghanistan, knowing future administrations would have to tough out the mess.

That it adds financial pressure on the treasury suits his purpose of killing programs too.




MarsBonfire -> RE: Pres. Obama meets with Afghanistan Commander (10/3/2009 7:28:31 AM)

Yes, Music, and they don't cost anywhere near as much as taking AF-1 on a junket around the globe, for what is essentially a photo op with the troops. (Remember Bush and the fake Thanksgiving Day Turkey?)

mmm-mmmmm-mmm Barrack Hussein Obama: multi-tasker!



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