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RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 3:59:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Like most bureaucracies; the battles are fought by the pawns on the front lines. Teachers, teacher's aides, janitors, kitchen workers; are all being put out there as both victims and perpetrators. Meanwhile, the bureaucrats, the "support system" duplicated 100's of times is safe behind the lines.

When school districts were limited by 1920's communications it made sense to keep them small. Now it doesn't. Imagine the savings if there were only one curriculum throughout the country. One buyer of books, one administration.

But no, the energy being spent is going to insure the status quo; more bureaucrats.

California is a great example. School attendance down 10%; costs up 20% - you explain it.

quote:

Merc and the others, teach in some of those schools . From what I hear, it is no sinecure.
UInlike many who's civic participation is amusing others by posting attempted insults and head bobing to PC politics on the internet; I do teach and make presentations for entrepreneur workshops. I don't get compensation; I don't feel over, or under, paid.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 3:59:27 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

When unions are mentioned it's almost always the teacher's unions and government unions that get slammed.  How about the union for prison employees?  That is a hellaciously powerful union and they drove support for "three strikes", increased prison terms, etc.  And they ain't a bunch of democrats. 



Exactly, but it doesn't suit the rhetoric, to blame the prison wardens' unions: they're not a soft target like the teachers. After all, who's easier to blame than an 'incredibly well-paid' (rofl!!!) teacher? I'd like to see people like TheHeretic, Merc and the others, teach in some of those schools  . From what I hear, it is no sinecure.


This is a sad state of affairs, kittin.
School teachers in the USA going on a hunger strike, is sad.

It's easier to make jokes when the ship is sinking, than to figure out ways
to save it.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/4/2009 4:00:21 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 4:05:45 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

UInlike many who's civic participation is amusing others by posting attempted insults and head bobing to PC politics on the internet; I do teach and make presentations for entrepreneur workshops. I don't get compensation; I don't feel over, or under, paid.


Oh yeah. You teach six years old to read, in a school, every day of the week? You try and teach ten years old notions of civic notions, every day of the week? You make a living out of standing up in front of a class of thirty, or even forty, ever day of the week, for decades? I didn't realise that was your career of choice  .

You are mockable, because you have made it your business to mock others.



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RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 4:16:48 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Maybe they aren't buddhists.

That could be the case but more likely not eating for a couple of days will do less long term damage than third degree burns. Either you are willing to harm yourself seriously to raise awareness about something or you are just making empty threats of self harm that nobody cares about anyway. Usually when people make a rational argument against something without added melodrama they are taken far more seriously.

True, but the same could be said almost any pointless and futile protest gesture. I don't think the Chinese have pulled out of Tibet yet, so self immolation is more attention seeking than a political protest that gets a result, after all.

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RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 4:25:05 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		I don't agree with people harming themselves to make a point but obviously it can be demonstrated that some are far more serious about the point they make by the lengths they are willing to go to. A hunger strike would be credible if it lasted longer than David Blane’s effort in that box. The simple fact is it won’t so it is an empty gesture that anyone can do, for instance I haven’t eaten since dinner time so all I need now is a cause.

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RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 6:19:49 PM   
gift4mistress


Posts: 165
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

which is putting the lie to less taxes mean a robust economy, and healthy business.

again. still.


Hence my anti-capitalist snark  .


If there is one thing that I have noticed about economics, is that for everyone person so say this does that there is one person to counter that statement.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/on_lowtax_economy_bush_has_the.html

This article shows how tax cuts have helped America from 2004 - 2006

Of course, there is this article which counters the above article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/31/business/economic-scene-if-taxes-were-lower-economy-would-grow-faster-right-economists.html

Oh wait, can it be? There is an article which counters the New York Time's article. And, what is even more interesting is how New York Times uses Scandinavia as one of their examples as a "high-taxed" nation(s) that is doing fairly well. Yet, the article below says that their economy is a "myth."

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/510

Once again, please do your research then talk rather than blurting out opinions.

< Message edited by gift4mistress -- 10/4/2009 6:36:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 7:09:53 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Exactly, but it doesn't suit the rhetoric, to blame the prison wardens' unions: they're not a soft target like the teachers. After all, who's easier to blame than an 'incredibly well-paid' (rofl!!!) teacher? I'd like to see people like TheHeretic, Merc and the others, teach in some of those schools  . From what I hear, it is no sinecure.



Kitten, Kitten, Kitten...  I guess it has been a while since I posted regarding the CA prison guards, and their union.  They are far more spoiled than our teachers.  We have a local Lt. who made over $200,000 last year courtesy of the sweetheart overtimes rules the Governor we fired signed off on (sorry, can't link to that one.  The story wasn't picked up, and my local paper doesn't archive).  I favor firing the lot of them, and replacing them with National Guard until we can reset the whole system.  (FYI: standard wages at the prisons are lower than for the teachers, but teachers can't get paid double and triple overtime rates).





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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 7:16:37 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Imagine the savings if there were only one curriculum throughout the country. One buyer of books, one administration.




Merc, this isn't an analogy I use casually, but imagine the civil war that would break out in trying to nationalize the schools curricilum, regardless of who was in power.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 9:19:56 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

UInlike many who's civic participation is amusing others by posting attempted insults and head bobing to PC politics on the internet; I do teach and make presentations for entrepreneur workshops. I don't get compensation; I don't feel over, or under, paid.


Oh yeah. You teach six years old to read, in a school, every day of the week? You try and teach ten years old notions of civic notions, every day of the week? You make a living out of standing up in front of a class of thirty, or even forty, ever day of the week, for decades? I didn't realise that was your career of choice  .

You are mockable, because you have made it your business to mock others.



No need to mock you kitty - just qoute you.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/4/2009 9:55:10 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Merc, this isn't an analogy I use casually, but imagine the civil war that would break out in trying to nationalize the schools curricilum, regardless of who was in power. ORIGINAL: TheHeretic





I gotta go with Heretic on this one.....Even the idea of making a state by state standardization isn't going to happen. It's a good idea on it's face, but there are too many people with too much of a stake in the status quo to even think of it happening. Politics is known as the "art of the possible". I just don't see how this one is possible.

Still, it's not a bad idea in and of itself.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/5/2009 7:05:05 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Merc, this isn't an analogy I use casually, but imagine the civil war that would break out in trying to nationalize the schools curriculum, regardless of who was in power.
You assume that any national streamlining would be the result of government run nationalization. I would never support any initiative to do so. I'd use the charter school model with testing, similar to what they do in every other 'western' country, with a standardized national test at the end of the process to generate a standardized nationally certified high school diploma.

Should get the support of all those thinking that Europe holds the ideal model for the US to follow regarding all things.

To many anything efficient you have to get government OUT of the equation.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/5/2009 7:18:06 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Merc, this isn't an analogy I use casually, but imagine the civil war that would break out in trying to nationalize the schools curriculum, regardless of who was in power.
You assume that any national streamlining would be the result of government run nationalization. I would never support any initiative to do so. I'd use the charter school model with testing, similar to what they do in every other 'western' country, with a standardized national test at the end of the process to generate a standardized nationally certified high school diploma.

Should get the support of all those thinking that Europe holds the ideal model for the US to follow regarding all things.

To many anything efficient you have to get government OUT of the equation.


quote:

It's a good idea on it's face, but there are too many people with too much of a stake in the status quo to even think of it happening.
Ah, so lets use that criteria on every idea and the status quo survives until its totally bankrupt and broken. Defining the health care issue, Medicare, military spending, illegal workers and their criminal employers, and just about every PAC funded special interest encumbering this country.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/5/2009 7:33:24 AM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Ah, so lets use that criteria on every idea and the status quo survives until its totally bankrupt and broken. Defining the health care issue, Medicare, military spending, illegal workers and their criminal employers, and just about every PAC funded special interest encumbering this country.


Ok....so let's take a more hopeful attitude. What steps would you say could be taken to even start to bring this about given the current political system under which we labor?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/5/2009 8:10:52 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

What steps would you say could be taken to even start to bring this about given the current political system under which we labor?
Under the "current political system" - NOTHING. Nothing could be implemented or even suggested as long as the teacher union PACs and the public employee union PACS continue to hold influence. McCain-Feingold insured PACs have absolute power in the political process. I don't see a change in that situation in the foreseeable future.

Speaking theoretically, I'd start with the end goal. I'd determine, by setting up a committee of leaders from business, social, and educational sectors to form a curriculum and test. It would not be single focus on 'Reading - Writing - Arithmetic'.

It would include benchmark testing where the inherent abilities of students would be considered with personal goals. It would be an ongoing, annual assessment. Passing to the next grade would be changed back to being promoted to the next grade. It would be earned; meaningful for the student as well as anyone considering them for employment or the next step in their education.

School would not be mandatory. It would not be fixed in regimented 1-12 segments. Learn or test out to the mental ability and maturity of the student. In lieu of participation in the education provided an individual could instead participate in either a service or apprentice program up to a predetermined age; run by businesses and/or local government. Labor and construction unions could implement 'guild' programs.

To flesh out all the details in response to a one sentence challenge on CM doesn't make any sense; but it can be done. The details would take less than the 1000 pages for the health care bill; but are more than I care to write out as a dissertation for this venue. I would need the current total cost of education throughout the country at every level; but I assure you, I could create a program with a budget using less than 50% of whatever spending that total represents.

You can not accomplish anything with the current structure. You have to tear down the buildings and structure designed for social, economic, and practical knowledge requirements that are irrelevant for current conditions.

If a HS degree is virtually worthless why are we, as a society, spending so much to try to get 100% of our children to get it? Why would anyone support ongoing spending and effort to do so?

Which brings us back to reality.

The bureaucracies thriving under current conditions, who generated a generation of meaningless HS degrees, holds too much power for anyone to affect the necessary changes to improve the situation and get a return on our educational tax dollar investment. If they were held accountable they'd be fired and some other idea may be tried. If their funding were coming from any other source other than the government, they wouldn't qualify for a 'bail-out' or stimulus.

It won't happen. It won't be discussed.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/5/2009 8:19:34 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/5/2009 10:05:16 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Merc,dress it up anyway you like ,it will never happen.For this suggesstion to come from you .....makes me wonder just how long I've been away!

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Hunger strike- teachers in Calif ! >? - 10/6/2009 5:03:11 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

When unions are mentioned it's almost always the teacher's unions and government unions that get slammed.  How about the union for prison employees?  That is a hellaciously powerful union and they drove support for "three strikes", increased prison terms, etc.  And they ain't a bunch of democrats. 



Exactly, but it doesn't suit the rhetoric, to blame the prison wardens' unions: they're not a soft target like the teachers. After all, who's easier to blame than an 'incredibly well-paid' (rofl!!!) teacher? I'd like to see people like TheHeretic, Merc and the others, teach in some of those schools  . From what I hear, it is no sinecure.


This is a sad state of affairs, kittin.
School teachers in the USA going on a hunger strike, is sad.

It's easier to make jokes when the ship is sinking, than to figure out ways
to save it.


In Michigan teachers average about $50-70,000 a year. Not alot, but I think I could survive on it.


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(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 36
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