RE: To take or not? (Full Version)

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catize -> RE: To take or not? (10/7/2009 6:50:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

~fast reply~
To those who are seeing my decision process as punitive, I'm forced to wonder how you'd respond if this post were the other way around. If I was some submissive posting that my master came to me and said, out of the blue, "Hey babe, maybe I'm gonna release you. I'll let you know in a few days." I'm thinking the responses would not have been exactly identical.

Regardless, Carol understands that this is nothign more than the same thing as always with me. I don't bluff. I laid down some very strict guidelines about being my slave. She has either flirted with the edge or sailed past the boundary entirely depending on my viewpoint. I made it very clear that while she always had the option to stop being mine, that it was a one way trip. Now, we are at that cross roads. Yup, I love her. Yup, I value her input and opinions. But none of that means I am wishy-washy.


Ah, but it is different. 
I have seen varied responses to the posts about ‘my dominant doesn’t dominate me anymore’ but the one that stands out most (in my memory at least) is: you can continue to serve him/her; perhaps not the way you wish to, but in ways he/she will accept. 
But as the dominant, you cannot lead if the other person declines to follow. 
 
To take a step back and re-evaluate some of the absolutes you have set as parameters for the M/s part of your relationship is not wishy-washy to my way of thinking.  Perhaps what you are facing at the moment is that Carol is not <<your>> idealized concept of a slave.  She is Carol, the woman you love who has hit a brick wall.  A wall that she is not able to climb over or walk through for you….., because she is human,…. because she is who she is…..because she is Carol. 
 
With or without any specified ‘dynamic’, my fervent hope for you both is happiness and love with and for each other. 



lovingpet -> RE: To take or not? (10/7/2009 7:14:42 PM)

I just want to first express how grieved I am to hear of how deeply all of this has gotten.  I know I want the same as you do, Jeff, for you and Carol to live happily ever after, whatever that happens to be, and I think you will.  I think what devestates me a bit is imagining facing the end of a M/s dynamic.  I can't imagine the gut shot you are feeling right now.

I did want to talk a bit about this letter of obedience versus the spirit of it.  I am a lawbreaker.  I can be a bare minimal law abiding citizen at times as well.  What spawns either of those responses in me is when I do not believe the decisions being made are at all in the best interest of me, my family, my community, or my nation at large.  I will march and shout and speak my case.  I will face all kinds of perils to be heard.  I will not put myself out and try very hard to try to keep laws that I believe to be unjust.  My apathy speaks loudly of my perception of the motives of my leaders.

This is Carol's sit in, her protest march, her unlawful assembly, and she will be heard or she will keep on fighting another day to have that audience she needs.  That's the thing.  No matter how wonderful a follower a person may be, they have to know that those with authority over them will respond when a concern comes up and will make appropriate action in the event they were in the wrong.  If that confidence isn't there, then that's how strikes, boycotts, and mutanies occur.  You can't blame the governed for the governing's inability or unwillingness to listen, admit fault, and correct important issues.  Carol needs to be heard very plainly and she feels very adamant about it as well.  Is it possible you have made an error?  Maybe got just a tad overconsumed with owning and controlling at the expense of she who you owned and controlled?  These are not accusations and you know me very well that I don't work that way.

You made a statement a ways back about being smug about pulling off this move.  Why pulling off?  This was a massive life change.  I think her input deserved a very heavy amount of weight in this thing than in some other things.  This isn't what to have to dinner or where to go on vacation.  In the back of her mind, she may have realized how huge this change was while it is only just now hitting you (by your own admission).  

Do you think you could manage some kind of cross country, international move forebearance policy or something?  I am not saying it is time to bail when the big things come along the pike.  I believe that it is in those times that a submissive can show his/her  mettle the most, but it is also a time when it may not be effortless, without a second thought, or even all that happily.  She did as you required.  Given the scale of the thing, can you give her credit for it and overlook some of the moods, wobbles, and questioning?  I am not saying her heart being in it isn't important, but right now, more than anything, her heart is in CA in those four walls you called home more than anyplace else and I am thinking it may be much the same for you as well. 

This is a time to pull together, not drift apart.  It has rocked the foundations, but who says that's such a bad thing?  You are both rather isolated now.  You need each other more than ever.  Listen to her and share in all that is on her mind.  Let her get it all out.  Adjust to your new life together.  I don't think the dynamic is so fragile as to not survive some time as a little less in the forefront.  If she were facing the death of a loved one or the loss of her house from a disaster or some other tragedy, what would you do?  She just needs Jeff, that  man she married and loves, free of any and all titles, just a human going through this hard thing with her.  I am not going to sit here and pretend I know her mind.  I simply don't.  I just know people and general personalities.  Cleave together in the storm.  That's how you survive.

Hugs to you and Carol!

lovingpet     



KnightofMists -> RE: To take or not? (10/7/2009 8:24:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

But what's been going on here is that I've been getting obedience... but only to the barest letter of the law, not the spirit. Honestly it's not adequate performance. Really though, more than that, she agrees readily that she hasn't been my slave in her own heart for a few weeks now. I'm debating whether I consider that "slipping the collar".

I'm also struggling with keeping a careful eye on my own feelings of hurt here and not letting them force me into stupid decisions.


I suggest that what you getting is not Obedience but Compliance... The differences are subtle but significant in an M/s Dynamic and when someone is unaware of the distinction.. they are at a greater risk of a significant emotional event within the dynamic.



Missokyst -> RE: To take or not? (10/7/2009 8:37:03 PM)


If this isnt a "my way or the highway", what is? No room for her to think, consider, have opinions, imput that may conflict with yours because.. god knows it would be hell if you were thought of as wishy-washy. Is this a relationship? Or is it that you need to keep the fantasy of owning and ruling intact?

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
I don't bluff. I laid down some very strict guidelines about being my slave.

I made it very clear that while she always had the option to stop being mine, that it was a one way trip.

Now, we are at that cross roads. Yup, I love her. Yup, I value her input and opinions. But none of that means I am wishy-washy.




dreamerdreaming -> RE: To take or not? (10/7/2009 9:45:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

~fast reply~
.
<snip>
....she has either flirted with the edge or sailed past the boundary entirely depending on my viewpoint. I made it very clear that while she always had the option to stop being mine, that it was a one way trip. Now, we are at that cross roads. Yup, I love her. Yup, I value her input and opinions. But none of that means I am wishy-washy.



Dude, that's fucked up. Why are you so angry, and so rigid? That kind of thing will only drive her a way from you.

When you make things a choice between black and white, you'll miss out on all the lovely grays that you two could be frolicking amongst.



aldompdx -> RE: To take or not? (10/7/2009 9:48:34 PM)

a) Since surrender is only by consent, she defines what she freely chooses to surrender, not you. One who surrenders must master inner control to truly exercise the strength of self will and freely make the choice, rather than depending upon a bargain of giving to get. Help her master inner control.

b) A leader must master inner surrender, and control by humble example. External control is no substitute for a lack of inner control. Showing self control is leading by example, which then inspires another to share their own choice to surrender. Patience is a virtue -- demonstrate your virtue.

c) To freely make a core level choice to surrender, one must take control and surrender their inner bargaining mechanisms. Only through questions come answers.

A legally free person is inherently imbued with the power to consent. You cannot take that away, except by violating a fundamental right and imposing abuse. See (b) above. "Concerned" about consent??? Or, do you consider yourself so unworthy to receive the most precious gift one has to freely share, that you must forcefully take it?

"My dearest other half, I always remain present and a supportive pillar of strength to receive, hold, and honor whatever you wish to unconditionally share of yourself with me."

As always, just my $0.02 of experience.



DavanKael -> RE: To take or not? (10/7/2009 9:48:40 PM)

< hugs to you guys >
     Davan



LaTigresse -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 4:12:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

~fast reply~
To those who are seeing my decision process as punitive, I'm forced to wonder how you'd respond if this post were the other way around. If I was some submissive posting that my master came to me and said, out of the blue, "Hey babe, maybe I'm gonna release you. I'll let you know in a few days." I'm thinking the responses would not have been exactly identical.

Regardless, Carol understands that this is nothign more than the same thing as always with me. I don't bluff. I laid down some very strict guidelines about being my slave. She has either flirted with the edge or sailed past the boundary entirely depending on my viewpoint. I made it very clear that while she always had the option to stop being mine, that it was a one way trip. Now, we are at that cross roads. Yup, I love her. Yup, I value her input and opinions. But none of that means I am wishy-washy.


I am not seeing anything as punitive but I am seeing a bit of wishy washy. Now before you get your back up, let me explain.

I believe I read earlier, something about not tossing the baby out with the bath water. Then further into the thread, there is a more rigid stance being perceived. If I was getting this type of communication personally about my relationship, I would be very confused and frustrated.

I would feel like asking......."do you want me, no matter what capacity I decide or do you only want me as your slave? Do I get to stay and love you on my terms, or only stay on your terms and hit the road if I don't like your terms?"

Granted, that may not be the facts, but that is the vibe I am getting from the written words here. They are confusing and they are, in my eyes, wishy washy.

If your verbal communication is anything like the written, it is as though there are a lot of extra words........words that confuse, that make me feel the writer is talking things through, trying to decide, almost trying to convince himself. It makes the reader, at least me, feel that the writer really is not 100% sure of himself. From what I understand, that can be shaky ground for an s type.

And please, do not take the above as an attack or meant as anything nasty at all. I am simply trying to give an unbiased, unemotional perception that may help see things in a different light. I may be way off base, though I rarely am, but either way.........I am really just trying to be helpful.



agirl -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 7:47:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

~fast reply~
To those who are seeing my decision process as punitive, I'm forced to wonder how you'd respond if this post were the other way around. If I was some submissive posting that my master came to me and said, out of the blue, "Hey babe, maybe I'm gonna release you. I'll let you know in a few days." I'm thinking the responses would not have been exactly identical.

Regardless, Carol understands that this is nothign more than the same thing as always with me. I don't bluff. I laid down some very strict guidelines about being my slave. She has either flirted with the edge or sailed past the boundary entirely depending on my viewpoint. I made it very clear that while she always had the option to stop being mine, that it was a one way trip. Now, we are at that cross roads. Yup, I love her. Yup, I value her input and opinions. But none of that means I am wishy-washy.



Hi Jeff,

I don't see it even remotely as bluffing......you actually MEAN it. I don't see it as particularly punitive.......it just seems to be a model that leaves little room for times when things don't go swimmingly. It's all well and good when there's no icebergs but there seems no contingency for when there are.

The only wishy-washy thing I can see from what you've said thus far, is that you seem to WANT the M/s dynamic badly enough to feel hurt at the thought of it being rejected, and yet seem more attached to your idea of *what it means to be a slave to you* ...... then the idea of the ACTUAL slave in front of you. 

Your model has left you backed into a corner, you have to either cling to the purity of *what it means to be a slave to you* ...........or have a look at whether it might be an idea to have a model that has room for times of *wobble* and why you chose the rigid model you did.

I'm not suggesting you're wrong;  just wondering whether it's actually workable in a less than ideal world. If my M/s relationship was a *one way trip* it'd have been over a few years ago. Fact is , I was left to examine, wonder, worry, ask questions , cry a bit, in safety, without the Sword of Damacles hanging over my head ......and came back with a bit more insight and understanding about myself and why I'd chosen it in the first place.  There was no awful churnings because I doubted whether *I* wanted it, when I asked to come back........ it was *business as usual*.  T'wasn't a rejection of him, his decisions, his style, his choices......and he knew that. It was all about ME.

agirl


















dreamerdreaming -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 8:02:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

~fast reply~
To those who are seeing my decision process as punitive, I'm forced to wonder how you'd respond if this post were the other way around. If I was some submissive posting that my master came to me and said, out of the blue, "Hey babe, maybe I'm gonna release you. I'll let you know in a few days." I'm thinking the responses would not have been exactly identical.

Regardless, Carol understands that this is nothign more than the same thing as always with me. I don't bluff. I laid down some very strict guidelines about being my slave. She has either flirted with the edge or sailed past the boundary entirely depending on my viewpoint. I made it very clear that while she always had the option to stop being mine, that it was a one way trip. Now, we are at that cross roads. Yup, I love her. Yup, I value her input and opinions. But none of that means I am wishy-washy.



Hi Jeff,

I don't see it even remotely as bluffing......you actually MEAN it. I don't see it as particularly punitive.......it just seems to be a model that leaves little room for times when things don't go swimmingly. It's all well and good when there's no icebergs but there seems no contingency for when there are.

The only wishy-washy thing I can see from what you've said thus far, is that you seem to WANT the M/s dynamic badly enough to feel hurt at the thought of it being rejected, and yet seem more attached to your idea of *what it means to be a slave to you* ...... then the idea of the ACTUAL slave in front of you. 

Your model has left you backed into a corner, you have to either cling to the purity of *what it means to be a slave to you* ...........or have a look at whether it might be an idea to have a model that has room for times of *wobble* and why you chose the rigid model you did.

I'm not suggesting you're wrong;  just wondering whether it's actually workable in a less than ideal world. If my M/s relationship was a *one way trip* it'd have been over a few years ago. Fact is , I was left to examine, wonder, worry, ask questions , cry a bit, in safety, without the Sword of Damacles hanging over my head ......and came back with a bit more insight and understanding about myself and why I'd chosen it in the first place.  There was no awful churnings because I doubted whether *I* wanted it, when I asked to come back........ it was *business as usual*.  T'wasn't a rejection of him, his decisions, his style, his choices......and he knew that. It was all about ME.

agirl




[sm=agree.gif]    [sm=goodpost.gif] 



OttersSwim -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 8:03:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Hi Jeff,

I don't see it even remotely as bluffing......you actually MEAN it. I don't see it as particularly punitive.......it just seems to be a model that leaves little room for times when things don't go swimmingly. It's all well and good when there's no icebergs but there seems no contingency for when there are.

The only wishy-washy thing I can see from what you've said thus far, is that you seem to WANT the M/s dynamic badly enough to feel hurt at the thought of it being rejected, and yet seem more attached to your idea of *what it means to be a slave to you* ...... then the idea of the ACTUAL slave in front of you. 

Your model has left you backed into a corner, you have to either cling to the purity of *what it means to be a slave to you* ...........or have a look at whether it might be an idea to have a model that has room for times of *wobble* and why you chose the rigid model you did.

I'm not suggesting you're wrong;  just wondering whether it's actually workable in a less than ideal world. If my M/s relationship was a *one way trip* it'd have been over a few years ago. Fact is , I was left to examine, wonder, worry, ask questions , cry a bit, in safety, without the Sword of Damacles hanging over my head ......and came back with a bit more insight and understanding about myself and why I'd chosen it in the first place.  There was no awful churnings because I doubted whether *I* wanted it, when I asked to come back........ it was *business as usual*.  T'wasn't a rejection of him, his decisions, his style, his choices......and he knew that. It was all about ME.

agirl


I see this as wisdom and good advice to consider.  We are all of us spiritual beings on a human journey.  Part of that process -has- to be the ability to stop and examine ourselves and our surroundings every once in a while.  If I reached a point where I needed to do that, and had someone that I loved very much holding everything I currently had over my head...it would significantly hinder my process...it would frankly make me question everything I -thought- I had...and that person who was not willing to give me the space to examine my life without strings attached and the threat and fear of loss.

Realize that what she is doing, you are also doing - examining your self, your life, your place, in part within this topic.  No one is holding anything over your head.

A person is a slave in their heart.  What you call it, how you classify and categorize and organize it, is all trappings.   Getting stuck on the "twue concept" of slavery is not going to help you or her at all. 

Pulling it away because she violated some concept of what you thought it should all be about...is just going to hurt you both.



DesFIP -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 9:46:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I would feel like asking......."do you want me, no matter what capacity I decide or do you only want me as your slave? Do I get to stay and love you on my terms, or only stay on your terms and hit the road if I don't like your terms?"



This is how I would feel. At the time I most needed him to hold me, he would be pushing me away because I was in pain. Which would say to me he doesn't want me if the going gets tough, he only wants me when it's easy. And to that, I would have to leave. Especially when back in the US are family, friends, familiar surroundings, people who know her work and might help her get a new job. If I felt in the slightest that I was being pushed away, I would run back to those who I perceived as welcoming me.

She's grieving for the loss of her life as much as for the loss of a person. Would you tell her she disappointed you if she cried when her mother died? Because this is what you are doing here. Don't do it. Do be the person she can cling to.



leadership527 -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 10:05:42 AM)

Hrrrrm, I agree agirl... as far as you've gone with it. One of the things that should be clarified here is that, in large part, we are talking dictionary terms here. Let me be specific..

GIVEN FACT: Carol & I Love each other. Nothing has changed there. Nothing is likely to change any time soon.
GIVEN FACT: Carol is generally submissive. I am generally dominant. Nothing is likely to change any time soon.
GIVEN FACT: I have a definition for the word "slave" that is, admittedly, pretty extreme in some ways.

But what is not a given fact is what happens next. Carol may or may not match my definition of slave which is just a literal interpretation (and here I go, undoubtedly getting in trouble for that again). I'm unapologetic for taking the ideas that I've gathered from the BDSM community seriously. But whether or not I call her my slave tomorrow, I will absolutely call her my submissive wife. I will also absolutely call her the love of my life. That is simply a factual description of who and what she is. It is only the definition of "slave" which is rigid. The larger framework that I am applying that in is extremely flexible. Try to remember that Carol is, in no way whatsoever, being rejected as my friend, lover, wife, life-partner, or anything else. Nor is she rejecting me in any of those ways. This is strictly about whether a TOTAL authority dynamic works for us.

TO ME (and therefor to Carol also), M/s offers a way to obtain richer rewards from our relationship than D/s or vanilla. The question facing us is whether or not we want to play the game. Admittedly, it isn't an easy game to play. The stakes are high and the standards uncompromising. But then again, the rewards are also rich. I personallly believe it IS workable... and I'm a very pragmatic individual. The fact that for most people it wouldn't work out well doesn't bother me.

As a general update, as talk has continued between carol and I, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I do not see her as crossing the boundaries just yet. I was, in fact, quite specific in those boundaries and she did not cross them. The fact that she flirted with them doesn't matter. The fact that she was about to cross one until I pointed it out to her (at which point she stopped) is also irellevant. The facts on the ground are that she has remained inside those boundaries which I carefully laid down. It seems kind of pointless to me go muddying my very distinct lines.

Still though, before I name her "slave" again, I'm going to want to hear her having a much healthier viewpoint on that role. She's still working out some questions of her own. The things involving me (my leadership being good for her) turned out (predictably) to be red herrings... statements said and regretted in the heat of anger. But there are still some real questions left... notably... is she really prepared to become someone else's property in the (here we go again) literal sense. Does that make her a weak individual -- the dreaded doormat?

Carol, I suspect will be posting later. Her take on all of this will be, as it usually is, very different than mine.



heartfeltsub -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 10:11:24 AM)

Leadership,

It is a rare s-type and none that i have personally met who doesn't struggle with that question.



Mercnbeth -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 10:19:07 AM)

~ Fast Reply ~


This is absolutely not directed to the OP or his situation, but I think the other side of this coin should be discussed.

Just about every comment made to this point has been directed toward the submissive. Granted there is a need for compatibility and some consideration is ultimately always present in a M/s relationship to the feelings and desires of the submissive. However, the Dominant also should have the same consideration.

To not direct this toward the OP, I'll represent my relationship. Should beth ever behave similarly, we'd be over. It wouldn't be a matter of ordering her to do anything. It especially wouldn't be wanting her to "act" in my image of 'slave'. she's specifically required NOT to 'act'. Appreciating that "things change" and people say they "need a break"; it would be the end of our relationship.

That doesn't represent that I love beth any less than Leader loves Carol. It isn't even choosing a 'lifestyle' over our life. I would terminate the relationship because I wouldn't want beth to experience me and my frustration resulting in having something so essential to my happiness taken away. The relationship is over. You can still be friends, perhaps even lovers and sensation facilitators; but our life as we know it now could not continue with this irreconcilable difference.

The Dominant's needs are as important as the submissive's. Appreciating that people 'evolve' doesn't require staying together and accepting incompatibility on a matter that, for us, was fundamental when the relationship was being created. Lots evolved with us. We are fortunate that neither of us evolved down a path that didn't create a similar cross-road. However if we did - we'd be better off happy with our years of memories, than miserable contemplating a life outside our current dynamic.

Frustration comes from compromise based upon 'good intent' and not wanting to 'hunt' a long term partner. I have said to beth many times, that regardless of what I do to her, or with her, I always want to see that 'look', you know the one, in her eyes. If I didn't, I'd know our relationship is over. It would be a waste to put it on compromising life support. Sometimes the kindest, most loving, most considerate, thing a Dominant can do is kill a relationship that they once loved.



LadyPact -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 10:45:01 AM)

While I admit that I can see the view of some of the more recent postings, I'm probably in the same boat of opinions as Jeff.  (I can't be the only one seeing the irony in that one.)  I think some of that stems from My own interpretations when looking at the two positions respectively.

In My opinion, relationships can transition from various types.  This is very true in My own personal case where clip and I are moving more to a M/s dynamic rather than the D/s one that we've had prior.  It's not exactly a snap decision.  Being My slave rather than My sub is going to mean changes.  It will mean more control, more commitment, and in some cases, fewer options.  It isn't that I view one as being better than the other.  It's that there's a certain standard that I will not accept less for in calling him My slave.

This isn't to say that if we found that remaining D/s was the best option, that I would care for him less or he would serve in a different way.  That is very much the same way as I see things happening with Jeff and Carol.  The core "them" isn't changing, but perhaps the structure is.

In a sense, clip is asking himself the same questions that Carol is asking herself.  It's just that it might be in a different direction.  I can fully understand how a s-type would have to chose slavery, even though they are pre-dispositioned to a submissive mindset.  There has to be an inner acceptance or conflict in living this life will ensue.  Part of what clip is reconciling within himself is questioning whether or not he can live up to the expectations that I will have for him because some of those things will change.  In our particular situation, that's not exactly going to be an easy trick.  Whether we're able to pull that off or not will be a determining factor of whether we are M/s or D/s.  I won't lower the standards that I have set for either one of us just to have the snappy title.

Please feel free to correct Me if I'm misunderstanding your view, Jeff, but I have a feeling that we're on the same page on this one.



NihilusZero -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 10:46:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

But there are still some real questions left... notably... is she really prepared to become someone else's property in the (here we go again) literal sense. Does that make her a weak individual -- the dreaded doormat?

What expectations would that incur that are not already in place?

There is no "dreaded" doormat. there's just the infamous "dreaded" doormat: a fabrication of misguided concern onto a hypothetically consensual role.  She's an artist, for crying out loud! It's all about the kinetic energy and internal substance than it is the degree to which it's wearing popular, brand-name clothes.



mnottertail -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 10:54:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Still though, before I name her "slave" again, I'm going to want to hear her having a much healthier viewpoint on that role. She's still working out some questions of her own. The things involving me (my leadership being good for her) turned out (predictably) to be red herrings... statements said and regretted in the heat of anger. But there are still some real questions left... notably... is she really prepared to become someone else's property in the (here we go again) literal sense. Does that make her a weak individual -- the dreaded doormat?


good to the first, it is just birds babbling at the brook. The sparkly things in the air are being stripped away, and she is now at the core of the issue.

and to the second, maybe a doormat, maybe not; but how weak? If it was easy, EVERYONE would be doing it, and they simply ain't.
I see this as a good thing that it is sorta going from slap and tickle, whips and chains to..........IS THIS WHO I AM? I'll take odds that the answer is going to be a resounding YES...or I would have to think that she would not have such a crisis of conscience about it.

My take, pal.

Fiel und Gluck.

Ron

edit: not possessing a conscience, I was unable to spell it, without additonal thought.



ranja -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 11:26:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize


But as the dominant, you cannot lead if the other person declines to follow.  
 


I think a dominant person certainly can... with careful manipulation, a bit of pushing here a bit of hindrance there... get a very agreeable end result



LaTigresse -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 11:30:05 AM)

Or a firm grip on the hair or ear........or any other grippable bit.[:D]



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