RE: To take or not?

RE: To take or not? (Full Version)

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happylittlepet -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 11:34:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 Hrrrrm, I agree agirl... as far as you've gone with it. One of the things that should be clarified here is that, in large part, we are talking dictionary terms here. Let me be specific.. GIVEN FACT: Carol & I Love each other. Nothing has changed there. Nothing is likely to change any time soon. GIVEN FACT: Carol is generally submissive. I am generally dominant. Nothing is likely to change any time soon. GIVEN FACT: I have a definition for the word "slave" that is, admittedly, pretty extreme in some ways. More extreme now than 4 months ago (that's about the time you started your blog)? But what is not a given fact is what happens next. Carol may or may not match my definition of slave which is just a literal interpretation (and here I go, undoubtedly getting in trouble for that again). I'm unapologetic for taking the ideas that I've gathered from the BDSM community seriously. Again, have you changed from gathering ideas over the last months, and has therefore your definition changed? If so, what does Carol think of that change? If you changed, does that give her the right to 'disobey'? Why does that give the impression that she failed, and not you? Do you fill in what 'slave' and 'Master' mean or does what the 'community' think (and we know there is no consensus) dictate your and her role? With other words, is how the dynamic works out in reality a private thing, made to fit the two partners involved, or do we try to fit partners/ourselves into the definitions? But whether or not I call her my slave tomorrow, I will absolutely call her my submissive wife. I will also absolutely call her the love of my life. That is simply a factual description of who and what she is. It is only the definition of "slave" which is rigid. Only if you let it be rigid. The larger framework that I am applying that in is extremely flexible. Try to remember that Carol is, in no way whatsoever, being rejected as my friend, lover, wife, life-partner, or anything else. Nor is she rejecting me in any of those ways. This is strictly about whether a TOTAL authority dynamic works for us. How about her desire to please, and her 'fear' of displeasing/disappointing you? TO ME (and therefor to Carol also), M/s offers a way to obtain richer rewards from our relationship than D/s or vanilla. The question facing us is whether or not we want to play the game. What is it, a game, or a reality as to what Carol and you make of it, or a reality based on who both of you 'really' are on the inside, or a reality according to a definition? If it's a game, who cares if it's compliance, obedience or adoration. Who cares if either one struggles, then it's time for a good laugh, a few days off, and playing a 'role' again. On the other side, if this is 'who you are' and 'who Carol is', there are no days off, but there is always change in circumstances. If that's a case, Carol can never stop being who she is, not even if you stop the M/s. Admittedly, it isn't an easy game to play. The stakes are high and the standards uncompromising. But then again, the rewards are also rich. I personallly believe it IS workable... and I'm a very pragmatic individual. The fact that for most people it wouldn't work out well doesn't bother me. The question is whether Carol thinks it's workable or not. As a general update, as talk has continued between carol and I, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I do not see her as crossing the boundaries just yet. I was, in fact, quite specific in those boundaries and she did not cross them. The fact that she flirted with them doesn't matter. The fact that she was about to cross one until I pointed it out to her (at which point she stopped) is also irellevant. The facts on the ground are that she has remained inside those boundaries which I carefully laid down. It seems kind of pointless to me go muddying my very distinct lines. Again, I wonder if you really didn't change them. Still though, before I name her "slave" again, I'm going to want to hear her having a much healthier viewpoint on that role. She's still working out some questions of her own. I always thought she had done that work. Cause to me, that's the most important part. The things involving me (my leadership being good for her) turned out (predictably) to be red herrings... statements said and regretted in the heat of anger. Please explain the red herrings for a non-native English speaker (me). Who made the statements? But there are still some real questions left... notably... is she really prepared to become someone else's property in the (here we go again) literal sense. Does that make her a weak individual -- the dreaded doormat? That was one of the first questions I asked myself when I started to discover my submissive side. Carol, I suspect will be posting later. Her take on all of this will be, as it usually is, very different than mine. It will be very nice to 'finally' hear from your Lady herself. Wishing you and Carol well.

subtlebutterfly -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 11:40:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Or a firm grip on the hair or ear........or any other grippable bit.[:D] EAR? Bloody sadists [:'(][:'(]

CreativeDominant -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 12:10:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Something to keep in mind: When you're in a submissive mindset, but unsure, what you desperately want is for the Dominant to project certainty, to Tell You How It's Gonna Be. When you AREN'T in a submissive mindset, and are unsure, what you desperately want is to be given some freedom, to Let You Decide For Yourself. These mindsets are indistinguishable until after the fact. Again, good luck. Yep. Absolutely true. If you haven't faced something like this as a submissive, it's easy to say or think, "Oh deep down inside I'd WANT him to be decisive, exercising his authority, making the decisions." Except the actual situation, god forbid if it occurs, is never that simple. Something like this rocks your reality, and while it is going on, you go through times where you feel equally and quite strongly both feelings: that you desperately want your freedom back and that you desperately want your dominant to take control. It's extremely confusing, and if it's hard for you personally to sort out what you really want, imagine how hard it is for someone outside of you to do so, even someone as close to you as your dominant is. Don't want to hijack and take this thread down another path but I just wanted to say thank you for the above in bold.

agirl -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 12:16:41 PM)
I'm aware that you have a relationship that will carry on perfectly well without M/s and I took that as read when I posted. As I said in my post.........I wasn't suggesting you're wrong and of course, am only positing my thoughts from my own perception of what you've written. I don't have the option of being with M in any other capacity than M/s. It could be seen as similarly rigid, in that, if I'm not owned by him, then what we have is over. There wouldn't be a something else in a relationship-type way. Basically, I can wobble all I like, it doesn't change anything as I can ONLY have what's on offer. The difference , for us, is that I have been able to question whether I want the situation without it even beginning to cross any lines of HIS. I either wanted to be there or I didn't. There's obviously all the vastly important information left out of your comments.......the real live day to day talks and revelations/nuances........... All there ever is in a forum is a kind of potted version. agirl

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 12:29:16 PM)
quote: There is no "dreaded" doormat. there's just the infamous "dreaded" doormat: The thing is, as Leader said in an earlier post, in Carol's mind, there -is- that "dreaded doormat"... there is that fear that, in yielding to Leader, she would, somehow, essentially give up -herself- and become a mindless automaton. The fact that it is an irrational fear doesn't make it any less real in Carol's mind... which is the only place the question can be resolved. I have to say that I completely understand both what Carol is going through, and what Leader is going through right now. I've been intimately involved in the authority-exchange community and BDSM community, and have crawled and wrenched my way to the top of an authority-exchange household, have held the hearts of our servants, and have yielded up my own... and now I am walking away. After nearly 30 years in the community, and 14 years in the House, I am setting out on my own. It was a gut-wrenching decision. Suddenly, a big part of how I've defined myself for over a decade just doesn't fit inside my skin any more -- and acknowledging that, figuring out whether it was the -situation- or whether it was changes in -me-, and then deciding what to -do- about it took months... and even now, I occasionally waver... and sometimes, the best we can do is to just push through. Everyone knows that we're not full-on, but I've found that "fake it 'till you make it" really -does- have a redeeming point. I don't know how things will turn out for you, Jeff and Carol... but I do know that, for all intents and purposes, you love one another, so no matter what happens, you have that. You've said before that, with or without The Dynamic, you'll have your love... but I would like to make a suggestion. I'd like to suggest that you, perhaps, consider leaving a porch light on to the possibility that, if Carol does decide that, right now, she can't find a healthy way to be your slave, someday she may make her way through some inner darkness, and that porch light may help her to find herself again there. It may not happen -- but leaving the light on only costs a couple of pennies in forethought... and is much better than slamming the door in a seeker's face because they checked out thinking they'd make the midnight train, and when the train wasn't going the way they wanted, they came back to shelter. I know that you're not a short-sighted man... so perhaps you might at least -consider- that even if you feel the need to close the door, leaving some way to find that space again if anyone wants it may not be a completely terrible idea. (Just informationally, my companion and I did this when I withdrew just this past weekend... we've arranged so that, in several years, if either one of us is inclined to re-shape our lives so that it fits with what the others have created again, we can re-integrate... and if we do, I suspect it will last as long as we all breathe, because it will have been a conscious, organic decision, with everyone knowing -exactly- what going back to that place would mean.) One other thing -- a relocation can take up to 3 years to resolve... so do try not to do anything else that can't be reversed while you're making that transition. Even if its just moving across town, the change in 'flow' costs us at least 6 months of upheaval. I make it a policy not to make -any- major, life-changing decisions in the first 6 months to a year after a major move for just that reason--I also make the same recommendation when I counsel people, and remind them that everything is liable to seem a little topsy-turvy until they figure out how the 'flow' works in the new location. Take care, Jeff and Carol... and if you ever want to talk, or just need to rant for a while or pitch a hairy canary... you know where to find me. Dame Calla

lovingpet -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 12:36:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 But there are still some real questions left... notably... is she really prepared to become someone else's property in the (here we go again) literal sense. Does that make her a weak individual -- the dreaded doormat? My partner and I had to have a long heart to heart last night over this. I asked him if he thought my heart was in our relationship even though I just struggle and fight with that word so much. The scary part was I was really concerned with not only how he saw it, but if it really did mean I was in a conflict that I couldn't resolve. He reconfirmed how I knew I felt about the relationship...that I was in it not only in heart, but in mind, body, even soul and there was nothing I would keep from him. He's right. I explained that it is not at all that I don't want to be his slave, but that I don't think I can ever be a slave at all. It's kinda what I wanna be when I grow up. It is beyond my imagination to believe I can actually be a slave. He called that a mix of unrealistic expectations, humility, and a bit of self doubt. He explained that I already am what he desires for his slave to be and that I have loaded it down with all kinds of other scary things that he has never once said he wanted from me. I've got a lot of notions and stories attached to it all that I could just let go of and I would realize I am right where I need to be to be exactly what HIS slave is to be. He made me tell him why I stayed. In light of some of his own expectations, he wanted a real and biting answer to that question. I had to admit that I trusted him and the way he has and plans to handle those very things that should by all rights scare me away. I had to delineate how I had similar views on some very core topics and issues. It took me aback a bit because in demanding those answers, he was showing his own vulnerability. He has long struggled with thinking his desires as too much of an abberation to the kind of girl he would most cherish. He had expected me to run any day and find this whole thing revolting and reject him early on. He sees himself as having some pretty extreme notions that he knows have to be hard to accept for me. It was a little hard to handle the idea of him feeling that way because of the deep sadness it had to be for him. We were both just sitting inside our own heads and bringing confusion and conflict where none needed to exist. He had worked through his, but needed to hear me say it. I seem to let go little by litte as my misconceptions and fears fall one by one. It takes a strong person on either side of this thing to do this thing we are doing and we both respect each other and ourselves for having it. I have come to believe that there is much honor, strength, and character in being HIS. Fill in whatever label and I just don't care all that much. The only one that is truest to my heart is HIS. I bet that's the truest one to Carol's heart too, YOURS. lovingpet

CreativeDominant -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 12:46:39 PM)
This is a difficult thread to comment on. For one thing, I've made it clear that I don't understand your rigidity and black/white viewpoints, Leader. On the other hand, I do think it is laudable that your intent is not to simultaneously end your marriage at the same time your M/s dynamic ends, if it does. Whatever way this turns out, I wish you and yours good luck. It is hard keeping things together nowadays and when I see a couple struggling to do so instead of taking the way of walking without work, it heartens me.

DesFIP -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 5:10:24 PM)
I've been thinking about this today and what popped up was an old movie with Mary Tyler Moore(I think) as a mother who when one child is killed, can't cope, becomes rigid and pushes away her husband and other child. Her inability to grieve openly, destroyed the remaining family and prevented them from grieving also. Ordinary People maybe? And that's the parallel that I'm seeing with Jeff's sudden rigidity, which is much more rigid than a few months back. Ther changes that have affected them have affected both of them. But his way of dealing with the loss of their previous life, the huge and massive stress of the move, is destabilizing Carol because he isn't there for her when she needs him. And this is sad.

seekerof -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 5:46:19 PM)
Jeff, I am torn about replying to your OP. I do not often post here and do not want to intrude. On the other hand I have read your blog and many of your posts. In fact this reading helped contribute to my decision about what I really wanted in my life (I went back to the vanilla BF and left the D, because it is the relationship that holds the most value). All of this said, I had been noticing over your last several dozen posts on other discussions how often you threatened that Carol would not be your slave anymore if she did “…”. Projecting myself into that, I know that if I were a sub or a slave, in a committed relationship and kept reading things like this I would start to seriously back track. Reading that would make me feel insecure and I would not know how to address that with my Dom. This is esp. true if I had already told him that I was uncomfortable with his frequent posts about me/us (which if I recall correctly Carol has told you). I think you may have planted the seed, and perhaps the stress of the move just gave it root. TALK to her about who you ARE together – not about who you two are not. Good Luck

LadyJulieAnn -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 5:49:31 PM)
Good post, seekerof.

CaringandReal -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 5:50:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I have to say that I completely understand both what Carol is going through, and what Leader is going through right now. I've been intimately involved in the authority-exchange community and BDSM community, and have crawled and wrenched my way to the top of an authority-exchange household, have held the hearts of our servants, and have yielded up my own... and now I am walking away. After nearly 30 years in the community, and 14 years in the House, I am setting out on my own. It was a gut-wrenching decision. Dame Calla I bet it was. Wow, there's lots of changes going on in people. I've greatly enjoyed your posts and hope you continue to stop in here and drop a few when you have the time. What you're saying about a relocation causing personal stress and for a long time has the ring of truth. Others have said it also. This may not be about bdsm at all, J&C. Maybe it's just life being retarded and topsy-turvy at the moment.

Jeptha -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 7:04:54 PM)
fast reply to no one in particular. This is probably neither here nor there, but in the past I've had it occur two times where girlfriends who were stable in their home environments freaked out when we were traveling in distant lands for the first time. I couldn't unravel the source of the freak outs, but in retrospect the advice I would give myself is to just witness and be reassuring, and not take it all toooo personal and not worry about figuring everything out right away. Make the only goal to be to let everything settle in it's place in it's own time, and try and keep some baseline of calm and sanity. Have no idea if this is in anyway relevant to your situation. I haven't read the thread in it's entirety. Sorry if not, and best o' luck.

NihilusZero -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 7:16:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seekerof All of this said, I had been noticing over your last several dozen posts on other discussions how often you threatened that Carol would not be your slave anymore if she did “…”. Projecting myself into that, I know that if I were a sub or a slave, in a committed relationship and kept reading things like this I would start to seriously back track. Reading that would make me feel insecure and I would not know how to address that with my Dom. This is esp. true if I had already told him that I was uncomfortable with his frequent posts about me/us (which if I recall correctly Carol has told you). To be fair from another angle, to specifically say "threatened" implies an intent that I don't think is applicable. One of that hardest things to deal with is a dissonance in the emotional interpretation of a certain event and the words used in that event. Jeff's declaration (privately moreso than publicly) about a failure to obey marking the end-point of his dynamic isn't something (I'm pretty sure) he holds over her head at all and, from my own perspective, I can see how to say such a thing is an objective analysis and conclusion based on things that could happen. He's simply decided that at the moment that would happen and at the moment it would be a decisive conclusion, it would mark the end of the dynamic not because he needs to have it "feel" that way, but because his analysis of how he functions in such a dynamic needs that symbiosis to work properly. This doesn't necessarily mean Carol hypothetically (since most of this is conjecture in reference to them both) would be "wrong" to feel threatened emotionally by such a position, especially if she's grown a certain attachment to the dynamic as a means by which to please the one she loves...but it does highlight a place where the difference of interpretation needs to be seriously analyzed because the people involved are expressing and/or seeing it from possibly dramatically different angles It's particularly a difficult act to juggle because he continually looks to her for a certain reassurance of balance in what he's deciding and she continually looks to him for reaffirmation and solidity in that functional process. It seems that the nucleus of this started at a moment she displayed insecurity and he, ever trying to assimilate her comfort-level in order to incorporate it into what he thinks is the best decision, became concerned she was doing more than just having a 'freak-out' moment.

MaamJay -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 8:31:08 PM)
Dear Jeff Wow this thread has spawned a wonderful discussion, one of the best. I have agreed with so much I have read. As You might know from previous posts, I have a lot of respect for You and for what You and Carol have built. All I would add is this: It is Yours (and to a point Carol's) prerogative to define slave any way that you both agree is workable to you. I sense that definition has been in flux to a degree of late and getting more rigid in Your eyes but not necessarily in hers. I also think that she has unresolved issues (the doormat thing) and it may take a while for her to work through that. I happen to believe it takes far more strength to yield than to control and as I do both, I think I have a reasonable perspective on that. But for her to take that idea on board will take time and patience on both parts. I think those who have posted that her fear of not being able to live up to your definition of slave could well be behind her difficulty at this time. And I totally agree with Calla about leaving the light on for the future even if she chooses not to be slave at this time. I think the main problem in fact is Your lousy sense of timing in all this. Now is just NOT the time to attempt a transition from leadership to M/s. A major move to another country (and it's actually MORE disconcerting when it apparently seems to be so similar to the old but isn't ... it would have been easier to move somewhere totally different because then you EXPECT it to be so) ... this is more than enough to cope with at the time. As several have said, it takes a LOT longer than it does to unpack and get the new house sorted. Please, take the pressure off BOTH of you and just put the whole lot on the back burner. Concentrate on loving each other, adjusting to the new surroundings, making friends, getting settled. Reassure each other that this is not a cop out and you WILL return to this when you are both up to it. That could be months down the track. Please take this advice from one who has relocated countries and across a massive country recently, and then downsized into a mobile home. It takes a lot of adjustment! Be HUMANS IN LOVE first and foremost, now is a time to retain the status quo of the relationship and move onto something new later. Being able to do this is what has kept Master and violet together through 3 major moves in 5 years! All the very best Maam Jay aka violet[A]

Surrenderwithin -> RE: To take or not? (10/8/2009 10:40:25 PM)
I have been thinking about this thread for the better part of the last two days. I am not sure that I have anything helpful to add however I do feel obliged to post. First a little background: I am a slave, by the same definition the OP uses. It is the same definition that is applicable within my relationship. I have been owned by my Master for nearly ten years in a 24/7 capacity. I, too, have experienced that thoughts and emotions that Carol currently is dealing with. The first time I encountered this stumbling block was in the middle of the second year being owned by my Master. He and I, due to my unresolved issues , went down the same road that Jeff and Carol now walk. Master gave me time to work through my feelings and made me validate to him why I wished to continue as his slave, once I sorted through the obstacles of my mind. He stood near by and supported me but refused to advise or coerce me in anyway as I worked through this difficult time. You see, he wanted my submission to be freely given and desired for me ( for my welfare) to make that concious choice and to be able to explain why I made the decision to continue to follow his lead. It was not so much about the consent, but rather he saw my need to reconcile this within myself. I believe, as does he, that a slave must be able to understand thier drive to surrender. This is who I am and I cannot stop being a slave. It was a natural inclination for me, but only once I met this man. He is able to speak to me in the language that my surrender can hear. Why do I compulsively surrender to this man? Society, womens lib, my peers all tell me that this cannot be healthy. Am I crazy? Why can I not stop? Why can I not walk away? Why can I not turn it off? These are things that I had to look at. I had to be able to rationalize this for myself, so that my surrender could be complete and with full knowledge. I had to first own who I was before I could give that to another. Knowing this, and reconciling this within myself was a difficult but needed step for me to take. The odd part is that this did not come before I became his slave. I didnt do this soul searching before I knelt and he placed his collar upon my neck. My heart, my soul, my very being was his before his leather encircled my neck. I was a slave. I was his, far before I had to cross this bridge in my surrender. The very definition we choose to use for the word, or position, of slave is very complete. However, in many ways is it is limiting. It covers all the bases, yet because it litterally means OWNED and completely his it doesnt leave room for growth in the slave. The slave is expected to be just that... a slave. I think its important that a slave continues to learn and grow and understand her drive to be a slave. It is through this process that a slave becomes a better slave. Self actualization is a fundamental element for a slave. Think of it like this: A man gives you a diamond in its roughest form.The man doesnt know what he is giving you only that you were willing to accept it when he offered it to you. In time you smooth and polish the diamond and its internal beauty luster shines forth. Now assume there is a second man who gives you a baurtiful polished diamond knowing full well what he offers. Ask yourself: Which man really gave you something from his heart. Was it the man who offered you a rock without knowledge of its worth, or the man who offered you something knowing full well what he gave. The answer is simple: The man who gave you something knowing its value and worth really gave you a gift. In monetary value the end results of the diamond are the same. However, which do you cherish more? The stone you had to sweat and work with the bring forth its luster or the one that shined when handed to you. I kind of see slavery like this. In the beginning I have my surrender to Master. It felt right. It came naturally and it worked. I didnt know myself well enough to know where it came from or why I was compelled in that direction but it worked. I didn't know the worth and the value of what I surrendered to him. He Mastered me. He taught me. He guided me. He Mastered me. I learned. I followed. I surrendered. Then one day WAM I ran right smack into a wall. I started to question why I was doing this, if I was crazy, why I couldnt stop, and if this was healthy. He gave me time and then we continues our M/s relationship. I followed. I learned. I surrendered.... only this time with full knowledge of the gift I gave. I knew the worth. I knew the value. I knew the pain. I knew how hard it would sometimes be. Yet, I gave myself over again..... So, in the end... it is like having both diamonds. I would like to say that was a one time thing. However, in the middle of year three I reached a place where I had to add new lessons into what I had learned and examine myself again. With even more knowledge and understanding I made the choice to surrender again. Yet, another diamond with more value than the last. Year six, year seven..... wash, rinse, repeat....... I would like to say that since it has been 3 years since I had to dig deep within myself about that particular topic I am past it. I sit here today nearly ten years enslaved and I know who I am. I know who I serve. I know why I serve. I know who my Master is. I trust him to lead, to guide, to even fall and continue on. I am a proud confidant self actualized slave. I am owned. I follow. I serve. I surrender. I am slave. I will not be so cocky as to say that I will never again falter and begin to ask myself questions about why I do this..... as one day I surely will..... BUT, I know I will come through that and be better for it that I am even now. My point is merely this: We cannot allow the fact that our definition of slave is complete and all encompassing stand between us and the slaves ability to learn and grow, thus enriching the value of the slaves surrender. If I had never soul searched then I would never have understood the value of what I give and the sacrifice would not be so sweet for him that drinks from my cup of surrender. just a slave who has been down this road. I wish you both the best and I have faith things will work out for the best. Maggu

ranja -> RE: To take or not? (10/9/2009 2:56:20 AM)
I had a bit of a talk with MH last night about back tracking... leaving out the bdsm stuff if i would not like it any more... He looked at me and said: "I don't think so, you started this and I like it, there is no back tracking" well that was the fortunate end of that conversation... Jeff, have you taken the two of you dancing yet? http://www.ceroc.ca/

daintydimples -> RE: To take or not? (10/9/2009 5:44:40 AM)
First, I want to say that surrendering your will to another is scary juju. Many of us do not go down that road easily, In order to truly surrender yourself to another you must give up a great deal of your ego. And if you are doing that for the first time, you have no past history reassuring you that you can and will come out the other side still being you, only better. For me at least, this scariness has much less to do with me trusting the dominant as it has to do with me trusting myself. Secondly, I agree with what others have said here about rigidity. I've seen this a lot in married couples who, after being together for years, decide to embark on a very different marital dynamic. Generally the one who broached the interest initially has an ideal in their head about what the relationship should be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying leadership is not important, it is. But what I see is that these couples have issues with letting the dynamic flow naturally. Very often it doesn't get to evolve in the way that both want and need it to. I think there are many reasons for this, one being that new people on both sides of the kneel can be very rigid in their thinking and use a cookie cutter approach to D/s relationships. You have to trust yourself and your other not to have too many expectations for what the relationship should be, and let it evolve into what it can be. I wish both you and Carol the very best.

leadership527 -> RE: To take or not? (10/9/2009 8:49:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl There's obviously all the vastly important information left out of your comments.......the real live day to day talks and revelations/nuances........... All there ever is in a forum is a kind of potted version. You know, I actually have felt somewhat bad here. I've always known this to be true, but now I'm really seeing it from the other side. The situation here is that I have posted as honestly as I know how. A bunch of people that I like and respect... you among them agirl... have tried to help. But damn it is HARD to post enough information to really give an accurate picture and so there is, of course, a lot of off-point advice. Then, of course, is the overall thing that trying to understand anyone else's relationship is hard as hell. I've been on the responder side a lot and wished I had a bit more information or a lot more usually. Now I'm seeing it from the standpoint of the person raising the questions. Generall, to the responders on this thread.. again many of whom I consider friends here on CM, thank you for all the help. While some of it was off base, ALL of it seemed genuine and it's nice to think that people care. Stay tuned. Carol is still working on her massive tome she's now calling "The Slave Papers" Laughs and there will be a posting from her shortly. In the mean time, things are working out quite well for us.

leadership527 -> RE: To take or not? (10/9/2009 9:41:52 AM)
~Fast Reply~ Thank you to everyone who has listened and posted and wished us well - I was blown away by all the responses. I've certainly been giving my role a great deal of thought - let me clarify what I can. I want to mention that this has been a very odd bumpy ride; this week has been a crescendo of friction culminating in my retreat from my slave position - and - although I was sure mad, our conflict wasn't combative. I stomped up and down the driveway, wrapped myself up in a blanket and cried on the porch for a long time, then came to bed, told him to expect some roller-coaster emotions, and we were actually intimate. Since then, there has been a lot less static in the air and we're significantly closer. He gets a bucket of credit for staying calm and remaining overtly loving. Some may say he's a softie (he is) some may say he's inflexible in some areas (I'll give you that), but he always paints a clear picture of his expectations of me and I'm never taken by surprise. In reconstructing the meltdown, I think the move to Canada played a significant part. Someone identified "disallusionment and regret" as a normal phase in a move, no matter how fine it is - and I think I was in that phase. I think I started getting stingy in my submission - 'passive aggressive' might be a more technical term. In response, Jeff at first 'played out the leash', giving me some space, but it didn't make me any happier - frankly, I'm not sure I was noticing. He tried to give commands and I only grew more sullen and obeyed grudingly, which would frustrate him, and then his commands became icy and unpleasant. Our normally open and forthright conversations were gone. One thing you should know about me; I'm not very judgmental. However, I fear others' judgment - or at least, I fear having to defend my non-conformist tendancies to the conforming. In that way I'm extremely private. My role of a slave is very problematic for me, because I'm a happy camper pleasing my Master, so long as no one knows I'm a slave pleasing a Master. You see the conflict. This extends to other non-conformist things I've done -- back when I was a hippy feminist I didn't shave... but I couldn't reconcile displaying any hair - so throughout the long hot midwest summer I wore long pants and nothing sleeveless. sigh I like being a radical but I hate being a rebel. I've been remembering what it used to be like when our dynamic wasn't dysfunctional; for significant commands, I had trust, a bit of trepidation, excitment, a bit of a tingle. I would like that again. In questioning myself, why do it? I've come up with three answers: 1. Because he loves it 2. Because I trust he can guide my life better than I can - especially in health and career 3. It pulls us closer together as a couple Last night, I made some decisions. This process of self-reflection has clarified that when Jeff and I are both singing off the same page, some very lovely music is created. I've looked hard at what kind of relationship I want, and I want the best it can offer. That means I'm choosing the high-stakes game, which requires that I muster all my self-discipline (being able to give) and integrity (knowing what not to give away). He and I are both looking forward to a refreshed dynamic of M/s between us. One last thing; I revised a quote to more fully reflect how I'm seeing my role: Along the way, I stopped analyzing the path I had agreed to travel. I followed my Master's guidence and let go of doubt. I become one with his goals and wishes; with me, he would have the strength, power and permission to attain goals we otherwise could not have negotiated. I let go of the need for privacy or to wearing, eating or doing what I wanted. I began to think of myself as my Master's. ~Carol

NihilusZero -> RE: To take or not? (10/9/2009 10:14:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 ~Carol [lighthearted interjection] If I give you points, Jeff is totally not allowed to usurp them. [;)] [/lighthearted interjection]

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