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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 10:36:13 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
If I give you points, Jeff is totally not allowed to usurp them.

If you were a TRUE master, you'd understand that Carol has no posessions. All your point are belong to us.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NihilusZero)
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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 11:18:25 AM   
catize


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Hello, Carol!  We have heard so much about your relationship with Leadership. It is very nice to finally meet you. 
Despite the fact I am submissive, not slave, I can relate to some of the issues you have recently dealt with.  I strongly believe that occasions when we question where we are, who we are with and what we want are sometimes necessary.  Scrutiny can be used as affirmation that we are, indeed, on firm ground.

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Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 12:56:27 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
<snip>

In questioning myself, why do it? I've come up with three answers:
1. Because he loves it
2. Because I trust he can guide my life better than I can - especially in health and career
3. It pulls us closer together as a couple

~Carol

 
<snip>



Welcome to the boards, Carol!
   I've bolded what sticks out to me about your post.
Just that your number one reason for doing it is because he loves it. Don't get me wrong: having come from the slave side of the kneel myself, I completely understand how you feel, and I and wish you luck. Your feelings are perfectly valid. 
   But from my perspective as a dom, such reasoning/feelings would really blow it for me. Whether for M/s or D/s, I'd want a partner whose number one reason would be: "we love it". And I wouldn't, and don't, settle for less.
   Leadership527, or Jeff, if I may: Vanilla (or switching, etc.) can be perfectly lovely, if you love each other dearly but your other half just isn't lovin' M/s like you do.
  
   I hope this helps. The two of you will be fine, I'm sure.

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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 1:19:58 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming
Just that your number one reason for doing it is because he loves it.

Heh, in case it helps, I had large concerns about that in the beginning also. On one hand, wouldn't I prefer she was doing it for herself? On the other hand, what possibly more submissive reason could there be than "to please me"? Although honestly, it didn't take too long into the whole thing for me to just look at the smile on her face and figure out that I was doing the right things. She's had another chance to think things through and has arrived at the same conclusions without duress. I'm pretty confident that we are on the right path.

I'll try to get Carol back to this thread later for her answer to the concern.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 1:56:29 PM   
ncbabe


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In questioning myself, why do it? I've come up with three answers:
1. Because he loves it
2. Because I trust he can guide my life better than I can - especially in health and career
3. It pulls us closer together as a couple

~Carol

 



This stuck out for me too.  Although I appreciate that my situation and training are different to Carol's, when I asked myself the same question my first response was because I love it.  I like that he loves it too of course, but I do it mostly because pleasing him is what brings me happiness. 

Not sure how helpful this was, but either way you guys will work it out :)

< Message edited by ncbabe -- 10/9/2009 1:57:14 PM >

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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 2:18:08 PM   
aldompdx


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"Because HE loves it" = psychological bargaining of giving to get, where one's own sense of fulfillment is completely dependent upon another. That is not unconditional service by sharing, it is conditional taking by manipulation.

Such a conflict will not be resolved until one accepts that they are something rather than nothing. Humility is not the absence of ego, but rather its transparency.

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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 2:41:46 PM   
kallisto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

~Fast Reply~


In questioning myself, why do it? I've come up with three answers:
1. Because he loves it
2. Because I trust he can guide my life better than I can - especially in health and career
3. It pulls us closer together as a couple

I began to think of myself as my Master's.

~Carol



I'm so glad to see Carol posting. Like everyone else, it's great to "meet" you.

I see others have pulled this part out of Carol's post and I'm doing it as well. I'm certainly not going to pick apart her reasons. I think you have shown lots of strength and resolve to be able to identify and work through the issues that are important to you. Too many people in every kind of relationship take the easy road out and throw their hands up and walk away.

Just to add my two cents worth for my own experiences and life. This is how it is for me. If I didn't feel this way or if I was questioning any of it, then something would be wrong somewhere.

1. Because being his sub is who I am.
2. Because he can guide me and our life better than I can - no "especially" ... all of it.
3. Because he as my Dom and me as his sub is what makes "us".

And the last line of the quote ... there's no "beginning to think", I am his.

Good luck to you and keep posting Carol. Lots of great people on here.


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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 2:50:09 PM   
DesFIP


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"In questioning myself, why do it? I've come up with three answers:
1. Because he loves it
2. Because I trust he can guide my life better than I can - especially in health and career
3. It pulls us closer together as a couple "

 
I find this fascinating. I have the same feelings but I rank them totally different. For me, because he loves it comes at the bottom since I wouldn't do this just for him. I'm selfish enough to insist my needs be met or I'm not playing.

For me:
His ability to guide better than I can comes first.
The benefit for the relationship and being closer comes second.
And his love for it comes last.

Which makes me wonder if you're being selfish enough. If he's loving it but you aren't, then there will always be a conflict. Do you get enough from this to feel fulfilled?




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Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 3:11:22 PM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming
Just that your number one reason for doing it is because he loves it.

Heh, in case it helps, I had large concerns about that in the beginning also. On one hand, wouldn't I prefer she was doing it for herself? On the other hand, what possibly more submissive reason could there be than "to please me"? Although honestly, it didn't take too long into the whole thing for me to just look at the smile on her face and figure out that I was doing the right things. She's had another chance to think things through and has arrived at the same conclusions without duress. I'm pretty confident that we are on the right path.

I'll try to get Carol back to this thread later for her answer to the concern.


Heyo Jeff,

Well, unsurprisingly, my reasons would be in a different order too but as I'm not *submissive* it's not any eye-opener.

I chose this because of Carol's number 2 reason. The drive is all about me and what I want. It doesn't alter many, many of the feelings though. I worship him in an almost disgusting manner and am pathetically devoted to him ........I've been accused of having him *right up there, next to Jesus*. .........but  what I wanted was was my reason for being here.

Nice to meet you, figuratively speaking, Carol.

Regards, agirl





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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 4:11:16 PM   
mnottertail


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So, do I got this right? Everybodies back to fucking and sucking?

All's well that ends well. Carry on.

Ron




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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 5:26:00 PM   
leadership527


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Mostly right Ron. In our actual living room, everything is recovered. On the boards though, it appears that Carol's motivations don't pass muster. Man, the whole sucking and fucking part is just a lot simpler in real life than it is here on the internet.

For those concerned about Carol's motivations, her response is, Making someone you love happy is good. Doing so at your own expense is bad.

On the bright side, I've accumulated yet a new way that I am an evil bastard on this thread. This has been my week for such things. Now, on top of being too pompous, a liar, too strict, not strict enough, and generally not a master, I'm also an emotional blackmailer. I'm wondering if there's some record I should be shooting for here.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 5:29:17 PM   
mnottertail


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You like her tits?

I can find a hundred guys who don't, know what I mean leader?

If the opinions of a slithering pile of whoremongers, drunkards and ne'er do wells actually affect your thoughts in real life, then I am not drunk enough, ne'er do well enough or getting enough whoring accomplished.

keep on keeping on.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 5:39:57 PM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

~Fast Reply~

Thank you to everyone who has listened and posted and wished us well - I was blown away by all the responses. I've certainly been giving my role a great deal of thought - let me clarify what I can.

I want to mention that this has been a very odd bumpy ride; this week has been a crescendo of friction culminating in my retreat from my slave position - and - although I was sure mad, our conflict wasn't combative. I stomped up and down the driveway, wrapped myself up in a blanket and cried on the porch for a long time, then came to bed, told him to expect some roller-coaster emotions, and we were actually intimate. Since then, there has been a lot less static in the air and we're significantly closer. He gets a bucket of credit for staying calm and remaining overtly loving. Some may say he's a softie (he is) some may say he's inflexible in some areas (I'll give you that), but he always paints a clear picture of his expectations of me and I'm never taken by surprise.

In reconstructing the meltdown, I think the move to Canada played a significant part. Someone identified "disallusionment and regret" as a normal phase in a move, no matter how fine it is - and I think I was in that phase. I think I started getting stingy in my submission - 'passive aggressive' might be a more technical term. In response, Jeff at first 'played out the leash', giving me some space, but it didn't make me any happier - frankly, I'm not sure I was noticing. He tried to give commands and I only grew more sullen and obeyed grudingly, which would frustrate him, and then his commands became icy and unpleasant. Our normally open and forthright conversations were gone.

One thing you should know about me; I'm not very judgmental. However, I fear others' judgment - or at least, I fear having to defend my non-conformist tendancies to the conforming. In that way I'm extremely private. My role of a slave is very problematic for me, because I'm a happy camper pleasing my Master, so long as no one knows I'm a slave pleasing a Master. You see the conflict. This extends to other non-conformist things I've done -- back when I was a hippy feminist I didn't shave... but I couldn't reconcile displaying any hair - so throughout the long hot midwest summer I wore long pants and nothing sleeveless. *sigh* I like being a radical but I hate being a rebel.

I've been remembering what it used to be like when our dynamic wasn't dysfunctional; for significant commands, I had trust, a bit of trepidation, excitment, a bit of a tingle. I would like that again.

In questioning myself, why do it? I've come up with three answers:
1. Because he loves it
2. Because I trust he can guide my life better than I can - especially in health and career
3. It pulls us closer together as a couple

Last night, I made some decisions. This process of self-reflection has clarified that when Jeff and I are both singing off the same page, some very lovely music is created. I've looked hard at what kind of relationship I want, and I want the best it can offer. That means I'm choosing the high-stakes game, which requires that I muster all my self-discipline (being able to give) and integrity (knowing what not to give away). He and I are both looking forward to a refreshed dynamic of M/s between us.

One last thing; I revised a quote to more fully reflect how I'm seeing my role:

Along the way, I stopped analyzing the path I had agreed to travel. I followed my Master's guidence and let go of doubt. I become one with his goals and wishes; with me, he would have the strength, power and permission to attain goals we otherwise could not have negotiated. I let go of the need for privacy or to wearing, eating or doing what I wanted. I began to think of myself as my Master's.

~Carol



I will add my welcome to you Carol! It is good to hear from you!

I completely understand your non conformist streak. Mine is, for the most part, safely hidden away in a great many aspects of my life. Sometimes it almost feels like a double life. It isn't a lack of genuineness, in my view, just more an issue of personal space. Some things the whole world really doesn't need to know about me. I would be quite upset if a lot of my eccentricities were exposed to people in my everyday life. I am careful to only present what I know they can handle. I think it is a tie in to my submissive nature to not want to make people uncomfortable or upset so many apple carts. I am from a very conservative family and community as well as having deep religious roots as well. I don't want my life and the choices I have made to be a stumbling block to anyone else. My reputation is very important to me as well, so it is not surprising that I am careful to protect it.

All that being said, I am very proud of my relationship with my partner. I don't know how much Jeff shares with you from the forums or messages he receives on the other side, but I have a very hard time using the word slave in reference to myself, despite the fact that it really does fit when it comes to my partner. I have alluded to some of that in this thread, so you may have read about it some. I pretty happily go anywhere with him and he is able to display our relationship in various ways without any upset from me. It is when he pulls out that word "slave" that I get all unsteady. I don't think it reflects at all on how I feel about him or our relationship in terms of being proud or ashamed, but does reflect my own apprehension about what it means I am and what the expectations from him are because he views me as such.

I was looking at your reasons as well and it strikes me that it is hard to be honest with ourselves sometimes. Please don't take that as a slight because it is not intended that way. Two things that glare at me is how often we, as submissive people, can lose sight of what our own preferences are and also how hard it is to admit that it is what we both desire and need. You are very wrapped up in what pleases Jeff, as well you ought to be. The thing is, I read in your words a sense of well being, peace, happiness, and security within the context of your relationship. I think you just might like (maybe love) this too. I know. It is terribly difficult to admit that as plainly as you did about how he feels about it. It is a source of some amount of irritation on my part to know that I really do need and even crave for the control and boundaries, decisions, guidance, and steadfastness of my partner. I am a very independent person, but I don't really very well on my own as much as I like being self determined. It is really annoying to realize how often I am wrong about things like what I need and want, what was right for me, or how I feel about something. He accepts these reactions from me mostly because they are very natural and very much in line with my personality. I think there has to be an acceptance of each other's humanity and wiring to not be hurt by sideways reactions on occasion.

I will agree that your move is probably a big factor and there is absolutely nothing abnormal about it causing a great deal of stress in all kinds of areas. This, too, shall pass. It is just going to take an extra measure of patience and bearing with each other in the meantime. I know it is difficult. Hang in there!

I'm glad things seem to be getting back on track and you are doing better than ever. My partner and I are the same way. I get very wound up in my own head about things and he helps me pull the right threads to let it all unravel. In the end, we are better for it and we reach a deeper, higher level because of those times. All my best!

lovingpet

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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 5:44:22 PM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Mostly right Ron. In our actual living room, everything is recovered. On the boards though, it appears that Carol's motivations don't pass muster. Man, the whole sucking and fucking part is just a lot simpler in real life than it is here on the internet.

For those concerned about Carol's motivations, her response is, Making someone you love happy is good. Doing so at your own expense is bad.

On the bright side, I've accumulated yet a new way that I am an evil bastard on this thread. This has been my week for such things. Now, on top of being too pompous, a liar, too strict, not strict enough, and generally not a master, I'm also an emotional blackmailer. I'm wondering if there's some record I should be shooting for here.


Actually, Jeff, I think you are just having a bad week and need to kick back and relax with your lovely wife. I don't think anyone thinks that horribly of you and at the end of the day we are all just a bunch of nameless, faceless pixels on a screen. It's not worth too much fretting. I do feel a little sorry for Carol. You did warn her we're a tough crowd right? LOL. She'll learn we are harmless though.... well mostly......

lovingpet

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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 6:53:35 PM   
DavanKael


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< hugs guys > 
Beautifully stated, Carol.   
Jeff, you're a bad, bad man.   
  Davan

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May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

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RE: To take or not? - 10/9/2009 8:33:50 PM   
Musicmystery


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[never mind...late to the party]

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/9/2009 8:37:59 PM >

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RE: To take or not? - 10/10/2009 3:52:01 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Mostly right Ron. In our actual living room, everything is recovered. On the boards though, it appears that Carol's motivations don't pass muster. Man, the whole sucking and fucking part is just a lot simpler in real life than it is here on the internet.

For those concerned about Carol's motivations, her response is, Making someone you love happy is good. Doing so at your own expense is bad.

On the bright side, I've accumulated yet a new way that I am an evil bastard on this thread. This has been my week for such things. Now, on top of being too pompous, a liar, too strict, not strict enough, and generally not a master, I'm also an emotional blackmailer. I'm wondering if there's some record I should be shooting for here.


I wouldn't worry about it. You have all the relevant and vital information on your relationship and that trumps any half-informed responses and comments on a forum. Now, back to sucking and fucking , as Ron so eloquently put it ............lol

Regards, agirl

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RE: To take or not? - 10/10/2009 11:26:12 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
... I have the same feelings but I rank them totally different. For me, because he loves it comes at the bottom since I wouldn't do this just for him. I'm selfish enough to insist my needs be met or I'm not playing.[/color]



You are assuming that they that they are put into some sort of ranking of importance on the part of Carol... which may or may not be true.

Secondly... EVEN if it is a ranking of importance.... well the differences can be rather small. The top three sprinters in the 100 yrd dash are fractions of a second apart... the differences are so small that it's difficult for anyone to comprehend them in there own individual way. The bottom line is that all three of them are Fucking Fast!!!

The path sometimes gets alittle difficult at times... but Strong relationships become stronger as a result and weak ones will fall to the side. I betting this one will get stronger... There will be changes... significant and/or insignifcant changes due to those difficult times.. but regardles of what changes... I think Carol having some reasons and rational why she wants this relationship with Jeff to be a sign of strengthening!

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: To take or not? - 10/10/2009 11:59:35 AM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

For those concerned about Carol's motivations, her response is, Making someone you love happy is good. Doing so at your own expense is bad.



Sorry you still haven't made evil swine yet. The worry we've expressed is because she didn't share that this wasn't being done at her own expense. Now that it has been made explicitly clear this isn't so, you need to stop hanging out and go back to finding working appliances. BTW if it's a washing machine or a refrigerator, stop agonizing over the price. Go to the nearest appliance store and buy one for immediate delivery.

_____________________________

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Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: To take or not? - 10/10/2009 12:53:19 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
You are assuming that they that they are put into some sort of ranking of importance on the part of Carol... which may or may not be true.

Careful there Knight... you're going to blow the whole Jerry Springer-esque moment some folks are indulging in.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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