RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics

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DesFIP -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:17:05 PM)
It is fair however to ask if someone who has never known anything other than abuse is capable of informed consent. Consent by itself means nothing, people 'consent' to being robbed and raped when there is a gun to their head. For consent to be real, the person consenting must understand what they are consenting to. Which is why bestiality is wrong, the fact the sheep didn't run away doesn't mean it understood and gave consent. The person consenting must have acceptable options other than consenting. If the alternative to handing over your wallet is a bullet in the brain, it is not consent. I find anything with a risk of death or unrepairable harm, such as blindness, to be beyond where I will go. I'm sorry about that sometimes because breathplay and face slapping are very hot ideas. But they carry a degree of risk that I cannot accept. Nor him for that matter.

mnottertail -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:19:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MartinP People reading your words will wonder: Does this man really believe a human being is his "property"? Does he really hurt a helpless woman (if only helpless in front of him) just out of necessity, without any pleasure? I know a little something about the guy and yes he believes his property, and he is so not alone......kinda like, yanno, I am right in the same vein of thought and I am not alone, and so on and so on. And I am the same way, I would want my girls proudest boast to be (should she be given the leeway to boast, which is doubtful in the extreme), Master has not had to beat me for so long, I don't remember the last time, and we are not alone in that thinking. Very dispassionate about hurting and pain. So, very few people are wondering about his words, besides yourself. Ron

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:25:58 PM)
Indeed, Ron.......some of us don't wonder at all winks

DemonKia -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:27:06 PM)
But what if she wants beatings? [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And I am the same way, I would want my girls proudest boast to be (should she be given the leeway to boast, which is doubtful in the extreme), Master has not had to beat me for so long, I don't remember the last time, and we are not alone in that thinking. Very dispassionate about hurting and pain.

tazzygirl -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:30:40 PM)
quote: On a sadder note, this "search for contentment and peace" often started with abuse, long before the relationship. When I read some submissive posts here, or just read my own mail from lovely submissive women, I get a confirmation of what I heard from some --one is already one to many -- of my loves: To many of these women have been abused, as a child, as a teenager or a young woman, and are condemned to live it again and again as adult women. Are the companions of these women right to repeat - unknowingly I presume - these early abuses? I would say these are women who either have moved past the abuse, accepted it for what it was, and moved on.. or women who should be turned towards someone for therapy. I was abused... no details needed. I got over it. I enjoy a healthy relationship with a man who can dominate me. I even enjoy a man who will punish me. Hell, i even enjoy giving a blow job while my ass is caned black and blue. For many of "us", we dont need a white knight, nor do we look for one. If you are getting that much mail for sympathy, perhaps your response should be... "Find a threapist who can do you far more good than I can".

mnottertail -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:31:46 PM)
there are beatings, and then; there are beatings. Ask for them, you perform prettily, you can get one, although there are those who might deny even that sorta slap and tickle shit. You don't fuckin even EVER want the type you don't have to beg for, you can quote me. Ron

lovingpet -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:35:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MartinP quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Do you have any idea how many sub women have told me they weren't interested in me because I'm not enough of an asshole? Believe me, there's a market for men who are much more severe than the evil faceslapper you describe. There are a lot of people who do not feel "at home" or "at peace" without regular reminders of their place. Some people need these reminders to be physical, and violent. Why be disgusted by another's search for peace and contentment? It seems like a waste of energy to me. RedMagic, Two really good points you are making here. I noticed earlier in my life that indeed when I let myself behave like an "asshole" I would score more often. So what? Should I change myself to a lower being so that I can bed more girls? I get enough female interest the way I am, and even if it weren't the case, I would not see it worth lowering myself to the lowest common denominator. It is good to know what you really think of women who have done the hard work of learning to love themselves despite being different from what society thinks they should be. Believe me, your opinion matters far more than my own painful and deep introspection (sarcasm). quote: Yes there is a market for these men, as for abusers of all kinds. They are the living proof that the human gene pool was never properly sanitized. It is so nice to know that victims of abuse deserved it by being somehow deficient. I am learning a lot about myself here. quote: On a sadder note, this "search for contentment and peace" often started with abuse, long before the relationship. When I read some submissive posts here, or just read my own mail from lovely submissive women, I get a confirmation of what I heard from some --one is already one to many -- of my loves: To many of these women have been abused, as a child, as a teenager or a young woman, and are condemned to live it again and again as adult women. So let me get this straight, I was perfectly "normal" before I was abused and that lead me to being the fuck up that you now see before you? Is it at all possible that the initial abuse was an exploitation of my natural inclinations? Is it at all possible that I attempted to fill a void with abusive men when what I really desired was a dominant one who knew the difference? Is it possible that I appreciate my dominant partner because he does not treat me in the way those abusers did? Would you agree that disrespect for women is a hallmark of an abuser? Would you agree that seeking to destroy the autonomy of the victim is the goal? You do not respect masochistic, submissive women and seek to remove our personal choices. How are you any different again? quote: Are the companions of these women right to repeat - unknowingly I presume - these early abuses? No. In this relationship I am loved, accepted, respected, and free. That is nothing like abuse. lovingpet

lovingpet -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:39:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf How many females have to tell you that it is not bad treatment before you understand that? It doesn't matter how many tell him. He's not listening to us. He already brushed me off pages ago. lovingpet

lovingpet -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:42:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP It is fair however to ask if someone who has never known anything other than abuse is capable of informed consent. Not really. There is a distinctive difference. If I feel overly comfortable and familiar, I automatically start reviewing the situation. I have to admit it actually feels a little uncomfortable to be in a healthy relationship. People aren't stupid. They can note things that are different from each other even if it is strange and new to them. lovingpet

MartinP -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:54:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail I get just the opposite, in any mail I get, so perhaps it is a matter of gravitiation, in that we only see that which we search for, and with that myopic focus, can't see the forest for the trees. Euell Gibbons Euell, Another explanation is that a lot of slaves do not have a free and unobserved access to internet. Did you ever think of this as a reason for a certain filtering? Who can't see the forest? You, me or both?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:57:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MartinP Orion, Since you have access to the email accounts of your girlfriend, I suppose you did notice that I did not contact her to "save her from you". No you have not, but others have. Also, do you not understand there is a difference between a slave and a girlfriend? quote: Me as a white knight? How romantic of you! I suppose I should be flattered. Alas, I am just a common man simply disgusted by your way. It is not personal, I do not even know you. Thus my diagnosis of a messiah complex. quote: She is not a person, just a slave thus it is OK to hit her. One may wonder why all these good men died in Gettysburg. In teaching us lessons, history will always beat fantasy, especially second-rate one. The difference would be consent, but that is where you seem to be clueless. She willing has decided to not exercise her rights, and be subject to my authority. It really has helped her a great deal, but you would not be concerned about that. quote: "Fucking stop it man, you are only making it worse. I do not enjoy punishing my property, but it is required for the maintenance." I am making it worse for whom? For her? So you do not like hurting her, you just do it for her own good but if you could avoid it you would never do it? Worse for yourself. Just like I do not enjoy disciplining my kids, or pets, it is a necessity. Again this is where you would be clueless. We have some play stuff, but you see the intent is different there. Again though, your singular looking glass will allow you to only see a "vanilla" perspective. quote: People reading your words will wonder: Does this man really believe a human being is his "property"? Does he really hurt a helpless woman (if only helpless in front of him) just out of necessity, without any pleasure? I think we both know the answer to these questions: Of course you enjoy it! Be enough of a man to admit it. Yeah your psychic powers give you the answers. If you cannot tell, most of the people commenting have a clue. Any that are reading, that are experienced in dealing with slaves, understand what I am saying. So why are you on a BDSM site anyway? edited to comply with Mod 11.

ModeratorEleven -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 5:59:58 PM)
Ok folks, next person who feels the need to hurl insults in this thread will get the boot. XI

MartinP -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 6:01:39 PM)
Nope, I acknowledged your mail and explained to you what my focus was. I apologize for having been a bit court in my answer. Usually, I am an avid reader of you nuanced and thoughtful posts. However, you may have noticed that I have a lot on my arms currently. That I do not answer to you directly does not mean that I do not take your points into consideration.

CaringandReal -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 6:04:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: I've been trying to catch up with all the reading in the 24/7 TPE thread A sure sign of masochism. TOTALLY agree!

lovingpet -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 6:11:10 PM)
I understand your reason, but I don't think it is helping your case that you are not delving deeper into the submissives' minds who have offered you a peek because it makes it look like you are unwilling to evaluate your beliefs in the light of whatever evidence might be provided. I know you have a battle going on with Orion. Remember, he asked you the question I quoted, not me. It may be more appropriate to take the matter up with him. Hi Mod XI!!!! [:)] lovingpet

MartinP -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 6:30:33 PM)
Lovingpet, Of course, I do not demote any woman because she prefers creeps to good guy, but I hope you can understand a certain fatigue that the honest, respectful (but kinky) guys may experience from time to time, especially when they have to pick up the pieces afterward. The pool remark did not refer to women, if you look at my posts, you will see the incongruity of such interpretation. It was neither aimed at anybody on this forum, but I cannot pass a good play on words. Frankly, I do not understand where you get the idea that I do not respect submissive women. Nothing could be further than the truth, but if you can quote a few specific sentences of me, in context, of course, I will be more than happy to pour ashes on my own head

Andalusite -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 6:30:35 PM)
Sorry, Holly, I wasn't bragging! MartinP, I've been slapped unconsentually twice as an adult, both times by women who I wasn't involved with. I didn't feel degraded either time - a little shocked/surprised, very confused, and the second time I got a huge endorphin rush/glow from it. I understand what you mean by the difference between play and punishment, although sometimes, I want to play to a level that hurts, that doesn't feel good anymore, where I feel like I'm doing it for my Master rather than for myself, if that makes sense. I was punished twice in my previous relationship as a submissive, over the course of 3 years. The first time, I did feel very slightly frightened of him and the tool he used for the next couple of sessions, but not to a panicky or unbearable degree. The trust level bounced back to where it had been very quickly, and he wasn't doing it out of anger, or trying to harm me. The second time, I did have to safeword due to my circulation being compromised by the bondage (pretty much just letting him know). He adjusted it and I continued the punishment. The pain part felt good as well as hurting, which is usually a positive thing, but since it was a punishment, I felt guilty about it. So, we pretty much decided (and my current Master has concurred) that while I was still willing to obey authority and be punished, that finding alternatives such as corner time, having to do vanilla things I disliked, writing assignments, etc. would be more effective. Punishing a masochist with pain play tends to be rather tricky! IMHO, the difference between abuse and S/M activities involves both intent and consent, as someone else mentioned. In general, even if I'm crying my eyes out, I can babble at him that I need a kleenex or to use the bathroom. If he were actually abusing me, something like that wouldn't stop his anger. He's careful when he hits me (in whatever way) to not cause harm/permanent damage, even when it hurts a lot. If I'm really struggling, I can inform him, and usually he'll adjust things, although that is his decision to make. He wants me to be happy and fulfilled, but a part of that, in our specific relationship/dynamic, is that those choices are in his hands, not mine. So, sometimes he does things that really make a point of showing that to me. It isn't to "put me in my place" or because he doesn't value me - he likes that I am strong and usually independent. It's because that is something I need from him, in order to actually be in a power exchange relationship as opposed to just bottoming/masochism. While both my Master is also my boyfriend, and I was my previous Dominant's girlfriend as well, there's nothing wrong with Orion having a service-oriented or non-romantic relationship with his slave. A lot of people have similar dynamics, and it is not intrinsically abusive.

tazzygirl -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 6:47:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MartinP Lovingpet, Of course, I do not demote any woman because she prefers creeps to good guy, but I hope you can understand a certain fatigue that the honest, respectful (but kinky) guys may experience from time to time, especially when they have to pick up the pieces afterward. The pool remark did not refer to women, if you look at my posts, you will see the incongruity of such interpretation. It was neither aimed at anybody on this forum, but I cannot pass a good play on words. Frankly, I do not understand where you get the idea that I do not respect submissive women. Nothing could be further than the truth, but if you can quote a few specific sentences of me, in context, of course, I will be more than happy to pour ashes on my own head Nice guys.. depends on your definition of what a nice guy is. Also, on what a submissives needs may be. if she needs a man who is hard as nails, and recognizes that need within herself... he isnt a creep, but exactly what she needs. Some actually realize that they could walk all over a "nice guy". Some need a "nice guy". I believe its best for all parties concerned to know exactly what they need and not to settle for less. Wouldnt you agree?

lovingpet -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 6:48:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MartinP Lovingpet, Of course, I do not demote any woman because she prefers creeps to good guy, but I hope you can understand a certain fatigue that the honest, respectful (but kinky) guys may experience from time to time, especially when they have to pick up the pieces afterward. The pool remark did not refer to women, if you look at my posts, you will see the incongruity of such interpretation. It was neither aimed at anybody on this forum, but I cannot pass a good play on words. Frankly, I do not understand where you get the idea that I do not respect submissive women. Nothing could be further than the truth, but if you can quote a few specific sentences of me, in context, of course, I will be more than happy to pour ashes on my own head I will concur that in some cases women are choosing creeps over high quality men, but just because certain acts are a part of everyday life for the couple, does not automatically put the man in that creep catagory. If I understand Orion correctly, he doesn't enjoy the fact that his partner failed, nor the resultant punishment that he is obligated to provide based upon their mutually agreed upon dynamic. An abuser takes great joy in seeing the victim fail and delights in dispatching the consequences, nevermind there are no rules and no boundaries by which to know what will happen. These are two vastly different things. To me, who I select as a partner directly reflects upon me, so in saying that abusive men are the scum of the gene pool, that means that I would have to be equally deficient to choose that person. The problem is that an abusive ass doesn't always appear to be an abusive ass at the beginning. It is a quality that emerges after the fact. Maybe it is just the way you are putting things, but look at the first sentence of the post I've just quoted here and tell me how that would read from the opposite perspective. No one prefers a creep. My partner is a good man, but he does do these things that you would qualify him as a creep for doing. He wouldn't think twice about backhanding me if I needed it. What I don't quite think you are understanding is that, when a woman makes a choice, it is to be respected. It honors her judgement, character, intellect, and stability to do so. Calling the man she adores and is with by her own volition a creep does not do this. Good guys finish last, they say. I don't agree. Good guys who are not able to see the good in others different from themselves finish last. It is a matter of the ideal getting in the way of good deal. lovingpet

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/8/2009 7:01:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet If I understand Orion correctly, he doesn't enjoy the fact that his partner failed, nor the resultant punishment that he is obligated to provide based upon their mutually agreed upon dynamic. An abuser takes great joy in seeing the victim fail and delights in dispatching the consequences, nevermind there are no rules and no boundaries by which to know what will happen. These are two vastly different things. You understand correctly, and you and I know they are different things, but MartinP will never be swayed. I am very well aware of the complex he has, and in an examination of the words and phrases he uses, it is pretty on the money. I believe that even seeing how my household is run, what my girl was like before she was owned by me, and how she is now, he would still deny that the methods I use are good for her. Instead he would probably say she needs therapy and drugs. quote: To me, who I select as a partner directly reflects upon me, so in saying that abusive men are the scum of the gene pool, that means that I would have to be equally deficient to choose that person. The problem is that an abusive ass doesn't always appear to be an abusive ass at the beginning. It is a quality that emerges after the fact. What many also do not know, is that there is a cycle to abuse that can be tracked. There are many elements that on the surface seem similar between abuse and a power exchange relationship, but if the research is done, the divergent areas become apparent. quote: Maybe it is just the way you are putting things, but look at the first sentence of the post I've just quoted here and tell me how that would read from the opposite perspective. No one prefers a creep. My partner is a good man, but he does do these things that you would qualify him as a creep for doing. He wouldn't think twice about backhanding me if I needed it. What I don't quite think you are understanding is that, when a woman makes a choice, it is to be respected. It honors her judgement, character, intellect, and stability to do so. Calling the man she adores and is with by her own volition a creep does not do this. No instead he just reinforces all the societal stigma that often causes anxiety and depression in someone that is extremely submissive, and has a need for a firm and physical authority figure over them. This is how he does not realize he makes it worse on any female that is this way, and reads his words. Just as you have perceived them, my girl has as well, which is that Martin is saying we are all fucked up mentally and emotionally. I am confident in who and what I am, so his words don't really get to me, but the shame he triggers in others is the same societal bullshit guilt that is placed on anyone that is different and not accepted. quote: Good guys finish last, they say. I don't agree. Good guys who are not able to see the good in others different from themselves finish last. It is a matter of the ideal getting in the way of good deal. lovingpet There is good and bad in all people. One of the things that has touched me deeply, that my girl has said, is that she is amazed at how passionate and loving I can be, yet so unyielding and strong in the face of what many would consider things they cannot do. If I said that I had bashed a cat with a baseball, many would say I was cruel. What they wouldn't know is that the cat had been hit by a car, we had no way to get it to a vet, and doubtful a vet could put all the insides back in. The cat was yowling in pain, you could see it in his eyes. Yeah I swung hard and swift, and with that swing ended that cat's pain. No one has to know I had tears in my eyes when I did it. People like MartinP would say I enjoyed it though because all they would see is some animal abuser swinging a bat. There is no getting through to that guy, and I feel bad for any power exchange couple that comes in personal contact with him. He will be the one calling 911 and abuse hotlines to report them, and likely ruin a beautiful relationship.

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