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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 1:55:50 PM

maybemaybenot

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Chiangang:

I do not disagree with anything in your Columbine post. It is a real problem. However, it does not mean they weren't " wirded right ".
And your post supports that. You used your now friend, former tormentee. I am assuming he did not go out and commit crimes as a result of being picked on. Harris was concluded to be a psychpath, IMO, that is wired wrong. Most likely he would have committed atrocities whether or not his classmates accepted him or not. Maybe not that particular atrocity, but at some date in time, he most likely would have " snapped " from some other trigger.
mbmbn

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 3/4/2006 1:56:05 PM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 2:27:19 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
I do not disagree with anything in your Columbine post. It is a real problem. However, it does not mean they weren't " wirded right ".
And your post supports that. You used your now friend, former tormentee. I am assuming he did not go out and commit crimes as a result of being picked on. Harris was concluded to be a psychpath, IMO, that is wired wrong. Most likely he would have committed atrocities whether or not his classmates accepted him or not. Maybe not that particular atrocity, but at some date in time, he most likely would have " snapped " from some other trigger.

You're being really selective at what you look at in terms of evidence. My personal example was but one of the many I gave - and how many have the opportunity to make amends and then actually make them as in my case? What if I hadn't made amends, where would my friend be then? I also don't know that he was outcast to the same level as were the Columbine shooters - it was just a personal comparison. I was hoping by mentioning the wiki article and the fictional works that others would see a bigger picture than my mere anecdote.

You are also raising the issue of nurture vs nature. I believe both are factors - but looking at something mistoferin raised earlier, I place more weight on nurture in the predictability of how a creature will behave. Pitbull dogs have very powerful jaws capable of literally snapping most of the bones in a human's body in two - just like that, in a mere moment - hundreds of pounds of pressure per square inch. But with pitbulls nurture is everything - if you raise the animal to not bite and to be loving instead, there is no more loving dog in the world than a pitbull. It will behave as it was nurtured.

I am a big believer in B.F. Skinner's "operant conditioning":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner

You can train any behavior you want. And you will get whatever result you program into a creature.

Would you argue with that?

What's more you can retrain a creature too. I am of the belief that for higher order, complex creatures like human beings a combination of reward and punishment is needed to retrain behavior. Skinner thought that only reward was necessary, but he was working with animals in fairly simple scenarios.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 3/4/2006 2:34:02 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 3:49:47 PM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

I am a big believer in B.F. Skinner's "operant conditioning":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner

You can train any behavior you want. And you will get whatever result you program into a creature.

Would you argue with that?

With all due respect Chaingang, yes I would argue with that, as have many far more qualified than me.

BF Skinner used animal models to explain human behaviors. For me, there is a big assuption when you apply principles of animal behavior to the more complex relation of the human world and it's complexities. Skinners experiments were based on a controlled, pre determined set of standards without outside stimuli.

Skinner also theorizes that man and behaviors are soley determined by their enviornment. He excludes logic, reason, values, memory, self esteem and memory as having any relationship to behavior.
< ref: Autonomous Man>

He maintained that emotions were not behavioral indicators, but that they are states of reflex strength. He said the belief that emotions are important factors in behaviors are
" mental fiction ".

He defines behavior as what ONE organism sees another organism doing.

Skinner himself said that it it was too early to tell if his research with animal behavior was justified to correspond with human behavior. There are very few behavioralist who now believe Skinner had a comprehensive theory.

If *you* take Skinners premise that emotions are not behavioral indicators, you would conclude that the anger Harris and Klebold had toward their classmates was non contributory to their actions. Rage is not an indicator, according to Skinner, as it is an emotion.

So no, Skinners theory of behavior does not fit my world. But I respect your right that it fit yours.

My apologies to mistoferin for going so far off topic from her original post

mbmbn

edited to add : my reference to your own situation/friend was meant universally. IOW, we all knew kids at school who were taunted unmercifully, maybe some of us were the ones taunted. It is not right by ant means and I suspect many who did the taunting feel horribly about it a year or two after graduating. However, most of the victims of this type of taunting do not go out and slaughter a group of people. So, my own opinion and certainly not backed up by scientific study is " wired wrong" or evil.

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 3/4/2006 4:17:40 PM >

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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Post #: 43

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 4:21:21 PM

Chaingang

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We can agree to disagree on this point then.

I know clinicians - behavior analysts - that make Skinner's ideas work every day in real life human being type settings. I have also used behavior modification techniques to get certain results that I am satisfied with also.

Skinner discounted emotions because he was working with animals - and no one knows what animals are thinking or feeling, you can only observe what they do or do not do. He also downplayed the relevance of his research in relation to human beings because it raises questions of ethics and is fairly explosive stuff politically. But if you believe in "Manchurian Candidate/MKUltra" type stuff, as I do - not the conspiracy angle, just that the research has been done and that brainwashing is indeed possible - you are pretty much accepting Skinner's work as foundational.

I also believe things like: you are your nervous system and that everything else is a conceit. I don't really believe in personality as distinct from the nervous system itself and certain chemical reactions in relation to it. The rest is just data stored in the brain. I certainly don't believe in "souls" but it's a pretty idea. Yup, behaviorism all the way - there is no free will.

Maybe our opinions will vary widely on that stuff too.

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Post #: 44

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 4:41:50 PM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

But if you believe in "Manchurian Candidate/MKUltra" type stuff, as I do - not the conspiracy angle, just that the research has been done and that brainwashing is indeed possible - you are pretty much accepting Skinner's work as foundational.

Maybe our opinions will vary widely on that stuff too.

I can whole heartedly agree with this point and credit Skinners research in this area.
Beyond that my friend, I respectfully agree to disagree.

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 45

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 7:12:03 PM

ArtistInTN

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As the person whom inadvertanly started this issue in the original thread I decided to chime in on the issue of guns in general. Especialy as I rather suspect that most think I am anti gun.

To me there is a time an a place for everything even guns. Frankly to me it is neither the time nor the place for guns when meeting in intimate settings unless all parties are aware in advance of such and in agreement.

That being said and what much of the current thread is covering such as: the right to bear arms (guns), children and guns, if they should mix, if so how? (or at least that is what I am gathering from my reading of the current thread

On the right to bear arms yes but as stated there is a time and a place for everything should john jr be walking through the local mall with a 45 on his hip while sally anne totes her shotgun in a sling? I do not think so for there is no reasonable cause for one to think either will need either in such a setting (unless sally and john are headed off to make sure billybob is on time to marry betty jo after he sort of did the nasty deed and preacher jimmy is waiting for all to meet in the local food court)

Now on to guns and children. It is the responsibility to assure the guns are not freely accessable to children (I remember when I was a kid there was a kid killed by sibling when they found the family gun) Now days everyone who believes in (and still not enough do) keeping guns out of the unrestricted access of children do so under lock and key. As has been pointed out a number of times, KEYS CAN BE AND WILL BE FOUND!! no I am not saying it is useless. Rather a better idea is combination locks (unless you cannot remember the combination from sunday nite till sat am when the next hunt is on in which case maybe you should re think hunting and guns both)

I grew up on a farm and so was taught gun safety when I was old enough to handle the rifle (hand guns came later when I was a bit older) until we kids were older the guns were not freely accessable. by the time that they were made so I was in my mid teens and knew quite well how to shoot the head off a rattler with a 22 (my brother was a few yrs younger. Again the hand guns came later.

People say teach the kids as soon as possible about guns, I have to disagree to a point. This cannot be done at a certain cronological age rather based apon the emotional maturity of the child. And then only to the extent that the child is ready for. When I was raising my son my handguns stayed in a lock box along with the bolts out of all rifles with a combination lock. when he was around 7 he started learning a bit about guns from observation and was allowed to handle the rifles with bolts removed when he was a few yrs older I took him out and gave him a demonstration of the use of and dammage caused by each gun in such a manner that he was able to see that though he could cut himself with a knife and hurt like heck after the stitches, it was not even close to what a gun would do. I also started taking him to target ranges on a few occasions (when he went into military first time out he was off by 1 shot on expert marksman but considering he can bairly see past his nose without glasses not bad for a first time out)

So no I do not dislike guns, just remember that is within the right time and place.

Ok billybob the coast is clear <wink wink>

< Message edited by ArtistInTN -- 3/4/2006 7:30:21 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 46

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 8:08:28 PM

mistoferin

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Ok...I know this is not going to be popular but I just gotta do it.

It has been said several times on this thread that guns should be kept locked in lock boxes with the ammunition kept locked in a seperate location...and the keys sometimes kept in even yet a third location. My immediate thought to that is just exactly what world are you folks living in? Now, I am going to assume that we are primarily talking about handguns here and not about long guns used for hunting, seeing as the vast majority of child gun incidents are primarily handgun related.

The primary reason that a person purchases a handgun is for personal protection. They are not the weapon of choice for most people for the purpose of hunting due to the fact that it takes a greater degree of skill to be accurate with one and they don't generally have the range needed in most hunting situations. I would have to say that most likely less than 10 percent of all hunting is done with a handgun, and that is probably an optimistic number. So that being said...if your handgun is securely locked away in its' lock box and your ammo is securely locked away in its' seperate location...and the keys are in yet another discreet location....how exactly is this protecting you?

Scenario:
You are lying all comfy in your bed. It's 3am and you awake to a noise. You sit up and see the figure of a man in the darkness. Now what? Do you really think this person is going to give you the time to go dig out the lock box out of the trap door in the back of your closet....then let you go get the keys out of the cookie jar on the fridge, or worse yet, in your moment of sheer terror try and remember that combination....and THEN wait while you run to the basement to retrieve the ammo from the box securely hidden in the beams above the furnace....come back and load the gun and square off with your intruder NOW that YOU are finally prepared?????

And now are you REALLY finally prepared? When was the last time that gun was in your hand? When was the last time you loaded it? When was the last time you fired it? Does it feel like a foreign object to you? Can you actually fire a round into another living, breathing human being? Are you dead certain of that?...because if you're not you could certainly be dead.

Well I have to say that if this is your idea of responsible gun ownership...you are exactly the type of person that I personally believe should NOT own a gun.

Handguns especially, need to be as familiar to you as your fork and it's operation should come as naturally to you as operating your car. If you have to take time to think through every step of it you are fooling yourself into a false sense of security. Preparedness and proficiency only come with practice, and that does not mean you took a course five years ago and shot 20 rounds and haven't actually laid eyes on that gun since you cleaned it and put it safely away in it's lock box....no matter how safe it may make you feel to just know it's there.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 3/4/2006 8:26:16 PM >

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(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 47

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 8:50:29 PM

IronBear

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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There is a compromise and there are ways to keep lilies from getting the gun.. At night it is unlikely that a child will raid your bed side draw.. The problem is when you are up and about. You need to decide if you are going to be carrying all your waking time (baruing the shower or bonking) or if you want it incase of home invasion. If the latter there are safe boxes which some police use to keep the weapon when not carrying. If you take on the awsom responsiblity of owning and carrying a gun of any description you need to be responsible for it 24/7. If it becomes too much to maintain safety then sell the gun..

_____________________________

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 48

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 10:19:12 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

But then went on to contradict herself with this quote:

quote:

Now, i don't have kids in the house. Had a neice come stay awhile and i left my gun with a friend. It's not a chance i wanted to take. But, if there ARE going to be weapons in the house, they had better be locked up in a gun safe and completely unaccessible. Just hiding them doesn't cut it. i'm a supporter of having firearms. i am not a supporter of being stupid about them.

i haven't had a chance to read through this thread but wanted to clear this up. i don't have children. i have neices & nephews who have not been exposed to guns. So when they come to my home, the gun goes away.

To my other point, just because a gun is locked up an not accessible to a child on his/her own, does not mean it is not feasible for a parent to take the child out teach him/her to shoot, and to expose said child to the weapons. i do believe in locking firearms at home. my comment was not contradictory; a child can have all the exposure to weaponry in the world - but under supervision.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 49

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 10:23:47 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

At 12 or 13, you might teach your child to drive and let them back the car out of the driveway ... although you would NOT let them take it out ontl the street, and/or only let them do this under the strictest of supervision. A car is dangerous.

Your right...cars are dangerous. Although, I have not looked it up I would have to think that more people are killed in this country by car accidents than there are by gun accidents. But you wouldn't tell all car owners who have kids that they need to hide their cars...that would be ridiculous. No, as parents, you teach them about the car...and it's dangers.

...and don't leave the keys out

Hey, it's suburbia. The kids' friends will come over. You are liable.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 50

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 10:28:51 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

That's me, I don' want to take guns away from responsible others, but I sure want to limit their access to the wrong hands and to see the ones who are not complying with the laws punished.

mbmbn

Anything can be sold on the black market. You can't' take access away from the wrong hands. Where we go wrong is not enforcing CURRENT laws, like murder, drug dealing, etc.

(in reply to maybemaybenot)

Post #: 51

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 10:40:55 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Handguns especially, need to be as familiar to you as your fork and it's operation should come as naturally to you as operating your car. If you have to take time to think through every step of it you are fooling yourself into a false sense of security. Preparedness and proficiency only come with practice, and that does not mean you took a course five years ago and shot 20 rounds and haven't actually laid eyes on that gun since you cleaned it and put it safely away in it's lock box....no matter how safe it may make you feel to just know it's there.

I can't agree more and wish I could just plaster this all over the place.

I am completely comfortable with guns around as long as the people handling them are proficient and confident in their handling of them. People who know what it means to lift a gun at someone, people who know what it means to put that chunk of metal in their hands and who are willing and ready to deal with the situation swiftly.

This also applies to just about anything else too- toys, cars, other weapons.

Get me around some doofus who thinks the GUN is what will make them safe...well what's the point of having a safeword with a psycho?

_____________________________

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Post #: 52

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 11:00:05 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Handguns especially, need to be as familiar to you as your fork and it's operation should come as naturally to you as operating your car. If you have to take time to think through every step of it you are fooling yourself into a false sense of security. Preparedness and proficiency only come with practice, and that does not mean you took a course five years ago and shot 20 rounds and haven't actually laid eyes on that gun since you cleaned it and put it safely away in it's lock box....no matter how safe it may make you feel to just know it's there.

I can't agree more and wish I could just plaster this all over the place.

I am completely comfortable with guns around as long as the people handling them are proficient and confident in their handling of them. People who know what it means to lift a gun at someone, people who know what it means to put that chunk of metal in their hands and who are willing and ready to deal with the situation swiftly.

This also applies to just about anything else too- toys, cars, other weapons.

Get me around some doofus who thinks the GUN is what will make them safe...well what's the point of having a safeword with a psycho?

As an addendum of this LA, I've trained numerous Security Officers in a variety of asopects to ready them for their work situation. Now whanit comes to practical firarm handling buch is done with mechanically safe guns so they get the feal and weight of the weapon.. However in one Company I was OIC of all armed guards. The guys I respect were the ones who were prepared to take a drop in pay rather than be armed. In every case, their reason wasn't a fear of guns or a dislike of guns but they admitted that if push came to shove, their gun would remain holstered because they were not willing to be in a possition where they may have to take a life.. I respect that and to me they showed they were Men and not adult boys.. (non of my teams were boys BYW but experienced and trained officers who placed them selves on the line) There is a huge difference between shooting a target and shooting a human. I hope none of you guys never have to do the latter. You live with it. .... No I wont go there......................You don't need to know.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/4/2006 11:01:07 PM >

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 53

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 11:22:08 PM

maybemaybenot

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Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Anything can be sold on the black market. You can't' take access away from the wrong hands. Where we go wrong is not enforcing CURRENT laws, like murder, drug dealing, etc.

quote:

maybemaybenot:
As for owning guns, I will be in the minority, I am sure, but I believe we need enforcement of current gun laws. We have many gun laws, the courts aren't enforcing them. I will site my home state, we have a mandatory sentence for owning an unlicensed gun. This law is not enforced. You can read any day in the court docket of someone charged with illegal possesion of a fire arm being sentenced to probation. Just this week in my hometown court there was a man sentenced to 6 months incarceration for driving without a license, not DUI, not driving to endanger. Same court same judge, sentenced another individual to one years probation for illegal possesion of a firearm, assault and battery and reckless endangerment. Despite a mandatory law for the illegal possesion charge.
I know I feel safer with the illegal driver locked up and the gun toter walking the streets. < sarcasm>

I think we agree ownedgirlie, on enforcement of current laws. No you cannot stop the black market, but you can put a small filter on accesibilty, as in the Brady Bill.

mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 54

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/5/2006 5:51:19 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
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quote:

Master Archer grew up in a gun owning family. His mother was the hunter and brought him up to respect and appreciate firearms.

We have guns in the house as well as two now young teen kidlets. Yes, the guns are in a safe but they were in a safe even when Master lived alone. (Many home break-ins are for the purpose of stealing guns). Both children were taught gun safety when they were younger and the boy received a BB gun for his 8th birthday and a rifle for his 12th birthday. Both stay locked up in the safe. (He is now more enamored with his new paintball gun).

I grew up in the liberal SF Bay area and only knew a few gun owners. However, the day I moved to Oregon, all of that changed... everyone has a gun and it's not uncommon to see someone wearing a readily available side-arm on their belt in a grocery store.

During Christmas time I get all sorts of hand guns, rifles and assault weapons brought into me that I can purchase for twenty, thirty, forty cents on the dollar depending upon how close Christmas is. I only purchase the assault weapons though.... Bushmasters, AR's, Flans', etc,. I'm waiting for Pelosi, Waxman and the Democrats to win back congress so I can quadruple my money.

- The Ranger

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(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 55

RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/5/2006 8:37:21 AM

IrishMist

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All the talk about kids and guns...I would love to be able to take the stance and say that society, and the parents did these kids wrong and made them do what they did...but I would be lying. It's not just kids who go off on killing sprees, adults do it also. I tend to agree with the THEORY that alot of it has to do with how someone is wired. But, I also believe that environment also plays a large part. With the killings in the schools, it was a combination of the kids themselves (how they are wired), mixed with environment. If something had not set them off at that time, it would have happened later in life.

Use my daughter as an example. She is educated about guns, knows their uses, how to use them, etc. I have gone out of my way to see that she knows the dangers that are associated with them, mainly because she is exposed to them on a daily basis. I have no assurance though that later, down the road, something will not happen to 'set' her off. She may be wired in a way that makes her dangerous, and is just not showing signs yet. Despite all I have done, this is a fear that I live with that surrounds her. If, at some time in her life, she goes into a rampage and starts killing people, who would be to blame? I could certainly take the blame upon myself...after all, I taught her everything she knows about weapons, and she has easy access to them. Or, I could blame the person who set her off and caused her to do such a horrible thing. Or, I could blame society for not understanding. Or, I could blame her for not having the control needed to keep her anger and resentment at bay.

The thing is, even if I had not had guns in my house, and even if she had not been shown how to use them...SHE WOULD HAVE FOUND A WAY to do what she did anyway.

No matter how much education, teaching, understanding, sympathy, or blame we place with people...kids AND ADULTS...if they want to kill...THEY WILL FIND A WAY. Throwing blame on one or two people ( or in one or two areas ) does not solve the problem that people are wired in a certain way, they will react to situations in a certain way.

A good question to ask is instead;

If a person is wired in such a way that they are dangerous, how do you help that person overcome the urge to destroy? And, more importantly, how do you recognize such tendencies in a person?

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 56

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