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submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 7:15:21 PM

lucylucy

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I have always considered myself to be a feminist. I imagine that some of my vanilla friends would be shocked to find out I’m in a D/s relationship and would find my choice to be in a D/s relationship to be antithetical to feminist values. To me, there’s no issue; the fact that it’s a choice puts it in line with my feminist values.

I’m curious how many other female submissives/slaves consider themselves to be feminists and whether anyone has had their credibility as a feminist questioned because of being in a D/s relationship.

(Actually, I don’t care if you’re female and I don’t care if you’re submissive—I’m interested in responses from anyone who considers themselves a feminist.)

Post #: 1

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 7:36:51 PM

smoky

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Joined: 5/14/2008
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I am looking forward to reading posts here.,too I am a feminist and a sub, but I have yet to get those two parts of me to get along. I really believe that feminism is about women being able to be whatever they want, executive or sub or trapeze artist. My head knows this. But my mama raised a feminist and all those years of teaching are hard to deprogram. And I don't want to deprogram all of it. I really believe in feminism. I just want the sub me and the feminist me to have peace and I haven't found it yet.

Sorry not to have any info for the op... just wanted to chime in.

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 2

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 8:14:34 PM

BeIgnited

Posts: 191
Joined: 6/23/2008
Status: offline

I'm a feminist. And I justify it pretty much the same way you do--feminism is about choice, so I don't see a conflict.

I really haven't discussed my submissiveness with many of the self-professed feminists I know, but on the whole they're a very sex-positive group (including 'alternative' sexuality).

Ironically, the only time I've run across the whole "female submissives are setting the movement back" idea has been on this website from dominant women, and even then it's been a handful of posts out of thousands.

(in reply to smoky)

Post #: 3

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 8:19:47 PM

kiwisub12

Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
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I am a feminist in that i think all women have the right and the duty to pursue whatever course they desire.
My feminism has manifested in a career in the medical field, and submission to my Sir. These are the things that bring me happiness.

I don't believe that following someone elses tennents of "what is right" would fufill me.

If there are women out there who want to braid their axilla hair and not shave legs - more power to them. I certainly won't disparage them. I prefer to shave my axillas and leave my (few) leg hairs alone.

Same thing with careers. If someone wants a high powered career - go for it.
If someone wants to be a dominant - have as many toys as you desire.

The thing is, we have the right to pursue happiness, and what makes me happy is submission.

It was never an issue with me - feminism and M/s go hand-in-hand. There is no clash. Submission is a path i chose deliberately - not something that i went into because society expected and conditioned me into it.

(in reply to smoky)

Post #: 4

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 8:37:52 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

It's about choice, and about being paid equally for equal work, about having the right to be a doctor, not just a nurse. A lawyer, not just a paralegal. About not having to be sexually harassed to keep a job. It isn't about telling people how to act in their interpersonal relationships and demanding they do things that make them unhappy because it makes you happy.

About my family and friends, I don't tell them anything. I allow them to observe us interacting and make their own decisions if they think I'm in a relationship that makes me happy or sad. And if they don't care if I'm in a relationship where I am obviously happy and fulfilled, they don't qualify as loved ones or as friends.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to kiwisub12)

Post #: 5

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 9:45:33 PM

welcomerain

Posts: 63
Joined: 5/28/2008
From: Toronto
Status: offline

The main idea I got out of feminism was the notion that you need to analyze your behaviour as you go through life and ask yourself if what you are doing is what you really want to be doing.

It's very easy, as a member of a "community", to get sidetracked by what other people in the community think your goals should be and lose focus on what you personally want. This is equally true of your career goals, your desire (or lack of it) for a family, and your fetish interests. Feminists weren't the first people to point this out, but they did generate a large body of work to help understand why this happens.

What appealed to me about BDSM, when I first started getting involved in it, was the degree to which people seemed to be willing to think about what they were doing and why they were doing it, and the lengths to which they would go to try to communicate with potential partners to explain how their heads worked. I don't think the difference between the "vanilla" world and the BDSM subculture is as marked as it used to be, since the whole scene has become somewhat more mainstream, but I still do associate the scene with a greater-than-usual level of self-awareness.

In other words, I can see how the power dynamics of male-dominated D/S relationships would seem antithetical to feminism at a cursory glance, but I would wager the average dominant male in the scene has a greater appreciation of his partner's value than the average male outside of it. As long as there is genuine communication between a female submissive and her partner and a respect for each other's expectations, I don't have a problem calling the relationship feminist.

The only other thing I would add is that I think the same applies to a female-dominated relationship. I don't really put much stock in the idea that a woman who puts on a pair of thigh highs and "dominates" her partner is a "feminist". The imprint of feminism is seen in how the partners approach each other and contribute to the relationship, not who is nominally in charge.

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 6

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 9:54:17 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
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I am a Dominant feminist and I believe that feminism is all about women having choices. If a woman chooses to be a sub/slave, that is her business and as long as she is happy, good for her. Your not taking anything away from me nor the feminist movement, in fact you are showing your support by making your own life choice. That is my view on it.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 7

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 10:07:16 PM

BellaRed

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/9/2009
Status: offline

I don't know that I would consider myself a feminist. I believe women are equal, that we should get paid the same for jobs, and we don't need anyone to take care of us.

I have questioned some things myself before, like how my foremothers worked so hard to make it so I don't have to live under the thumb of a man, then I go and put myself there. I haven't really had anyone question me about it much. I do have a few friends that made the offhanded comment such as "No man would tell me what to do" type of thing, but that's about it.

_____________________________

"Guy? You wanna be a guy? Don't be a guy, there are plenty of guys...be a man."

Uncollared, but not unloved. It's times like this you learn who the real friends in your life are and I am thankful for every one of them.

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 8

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 10:20:12 PM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
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FR, after read thru & *happy sigh*

I was raised by a hard-core feminist mom & self-identified as feminist by 13 or so, after reading enough of her library to understand. (Tho' technically I was a feminist before that in belief.)

Feminism has mostly been about creating a culture in which everyone has arrays of choices regardless of gender . . . . . .

So, given that frame, I've had a thought specifically about feminism & maledom / femsub interactions ..... It's been said, rather perceptively, that maledom / femsub is the least 'politically correct' form of D/s relationship. I'm of the mind that part of what provides sexual excitement is a naughtiness, a badness, a sense of transgression, & that naughtiness, et al, is a chunk of the 'psychology' that gets played with in BDSM scenes & relationships.

Which leads to the notion that feminism, as much as it 'requires' women to be active agents in their own lives, creates a social space in which consciously choosing to be passive is transgressive.

& I think that that's a big part of what makes maledom / femsub so very hot for me, in particular with my background. It's naughty. I don't conceptualize it in an articulate way (even if I can discuss it that way, lol), but I feel it in my gut. Women submitting to men has become somewhat taboo; I suspect that it's more about submissiveness in general is judged poorly by the general culture that prizes dominance. To choose submission is inherently naughty & bad, following this line of reasoning . .. . .

From this line of rumination I like to jest that the hetero maledoms owe the feminists a debt of gratitude for making female submission 'naughty' & 'improper' . .. . ..

_____________________________

Snarko ergo sum.

The Verbossinator

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 9

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 10:28:23 PM

ncbabe

Posts: 1060
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline

I consider myself a feminist and like others here believe it is about choice. I used to see a conflict between feminism and submissiveness, and it caused me much distress, but through training I have been able to reconcile the two.

My friends know that I am submissive in my relationship, but have never questioned it because they also see me as strong, independent and happy.

(in reply to BellaRed)

Post #: 10

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 10:54:41 PM

lucylucy

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: welcomerain

What appealed to me about BDSM, when I first started getting involved in it, was the degree to which people seemed to be willing to think about what they were doing and why they were doing it, and the lengths to which they would go to try to communicate with potential partners to explain how their heads worked.

I absolutely agree. My boyfriend and I talk constantly about our desires and needs, about the what, when, where, why, and hows. I never articulated (or was encouraged to) my desires and needs in previous relationships (all vanilla) beyond the abstracts, like "I need to feel secure." I so appreciate the honesty and straightforwardness of most of the people I've met here.

(in reply to welcomerain)

Post #: 11

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/9/2009 11:23:49 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Carol very strongly considers herself a feminist. I myself am pretty staunchly for equal rights. I'm a bit horrified at the spin some branches of feminism have taken. I see no useful purpose in half the human race detesting the other half. But insofar as feminism is about choice and not men being bad, I'm all there too.

Obviously, any feminist who agreed it was about choice would also have no problem with a D/s relationship once they understood consent was present. Those feminists who have adopted the "men are bad" mantra are going to have a more difficult time with the whole thing. Neither of us has ever been called to carpet for the way we run our marriage. I don't exactly hide it. But then again, I don't make much of an issue of it either. There's not much to see when someone is over at our house.

It's worth noting that in my opinion, there's another theme that gets wrapped up in this one and confused the issue. Many people seem to think that being in a subordinate position is somehow bad... a sign of weakness. Really, when you stop to think about it, the idea is preposterous, but like many a myth, it clings to us perniciously. But I suspect that discrimination against subordinates (for lack of a better phrase) gets mixed up with the feminism thing and taints the picture.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 12

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/10/2009 1:14:16 AM

corsetgirl

Posts: 824
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline

I agree with everyone concerning feminism as I believe this is about choice and there should be no right or wrong way whether women should be a submissive or dominant. I also believe in equal work should be for equal pay.

When I was younger, I used to think all men were "male chauvinist pigs"; however, my attitude has changed as I got older. I believe that was because my dad was an emergency room nursing supervisor and he really understood how women faced discrimination. When he died, I was told he would encourage the nurse's aides working with him to become nurses. He would also confront doctors who treated female nurses like garbage within his department and did not put up with that type of behavior from any man.

I believe you can be submissive and a feminist as I like having a balance and nobody needs to be placed in a box dictated by the status quo regarding lifestyle choices.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 13

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/10/2009 7:22:50 AM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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i don't consider myself a feminist at present, but i did in the past and i think it fit in with my mindset at the time and career path as well. i have a balanced viewpoint and a great appreciation for both sexes. however, my commitment to the progression and enhancement of my fellow sisters remains. i will always do what i can to aid them if i'm in a position to do so. i believe in taking care of our own. if the same can be done for a man i will as well. i don't have a gender bias.

perhaps as i morph into a new career my views will change and align with a moderate brand of feminism that is evenly tempered. i don't find this conflicts with my lifestyle or the relationships i engage in at present. however, i anticipate there could be issues in the future when the rigors and long hours return.

to be honest it is a difficult balance and i believe it is important to excel in all that i do. in some power exchanges this is discouraged and women of this nature find themselves facing a choice between the two. when questioned why it is important i can articulate many reasons, one of which squarely references my former beliefs and the impact they've had on my drive and quest for success.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to corsetgirl)

Post #: 14

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/10/2009 7:59:50 AM

sweetsub1957

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline

I am submissive, I am also feminist. I see feminism as being about choice. Anyone who tries to tell me I'm not allowed to be submissive is taking away my choice and I call bullshit on that. It took me a long time to come to where I could reconcile my submission and my feminism, but I have and it's great. As a matter of fact, there was another thread awhile back that I wrote about this on.

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 15

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/10/2009 10:16:15 AM

afterforever

Posts: 315
Joined: 6/12/2008
From: Belfast, NI
Status: offline

Possibly I had less of a problem with this than some submissive girls because I submit to both men and women, but I never had any issues about feminism. Men and women are born equal, some of each are also born submissive or dominant, or both.
Plus both physically and academically I kick boy's arses all day long, so that makes up for what I do at night. ;)

(in reply to sweetsub1957)

Post #: 16

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/10/2009 10:23:30 AM

lucylucy

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Many people seem to think that being in a subordinate position is somehow bad... a sign of weakness. Really, when you stop to think about it, the idea is preposterous, but like many a myth, it clings to us perniciously. But I suspect that discrimination against subordinates (for lack of a better phrase) gets mixed up with the feminism thing and taints the picture.

I think you're right about this. We valorize leaders and anyone who isn't a "leader" is seen as "just a follower," which is somehow bad. I think it's a very American viewpoint (Jeff, are you noticing it in Canada? just curious).

For me, submitting took enormous strength at the beginning--to admit it was what I wanted, to follow through on it, to put my ego aside--and now, six or so months later, it still continues to challenge me in ways that test my strength.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 17

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/10/2009 1:05:15 PM

withtrustandlove

Posts: 1
Joined: 8/29/2009
From: Columbus, OH
Status: offline

I am a sub and I am NOT a feminist. Neither am I an anti-feminist. I think both concepts are silly and that people should stop trying to define what women should be.

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 18

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/10/2009 1:06:41 PM

subtlebutterfly

Posts: 2230
Joined: 6/15/2008
From: Not your hood
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: withtrustandlove

I am a sub and I am NOT a feminist. Neither am I an anti-feminist. I think both concepts are silly[...]

I agree wholeheartedly.

_____________________________

~Ms. Awesomeness to YOU!~

(in reply to withtrustandlove)

Post #: 19

RE: submissive and feminist - 10/10/2009 1:23:59 PM

Lucienne

Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Carol very strongly considers herself a feminist. I myself am pretty staunchly for equal rights. I'm a bit horrified at the spin some branches of feminism have taken. I see no useful purpose in half the human race detesting the other half. But insofar as feminism is about choice and not men being bad, I'm all there too.

Obviously, any feminist who agreed it was about choice would also have no problem with a D/s relationship once they understood consent was present. Those feminists who have adopted the "men are bad" mantra are going to have a more difficult time with the whole thing.

I think this is a false frame that is dismissive and unfair to the concerns expressed by many feminists. The number of feminists who believe that "men are bad" and "detestable" is so small that you can safely ignore them unless you're dealing with a feminist who expressly identifies herself as someone who detests all men. To attribute that negative attitude to your average feminist is unsupportable. When you're dividing feminists into two groups - those who agree with you and those who hate all men - you're not really engaging the issue.

Hating or resenting the patriarchy isn't the same thing as hating men. The patriarchy is bigger than all of us, and it has negative effects on men as well as women. I'm quite certain there are feminists who believe in the importance of self-determination who maintain strong reservations about D/s. Respecting someone's right to choose is not the same thing as respecting someone's choice.

Something that it is important to understand about feminism is that while it values and aspires to greater individual freedom, it recognizes that we live in a society that, to greater and lesser degrees, frequently ignores individuality. The idea that "she makes all women look bad," for example. White guys might jokingly deal with that notion in the context of dating, but rarely if ever in the workplace. White guys are allowed to be individual assholes and fuck ups in ways that women and minorities are not. A woman being an asshole will frequently have the flaw attributed to her gender, rather than her individual personality. Because of that tendency, the actions of individuals arguably do have an effect on how the group is treated.

In that sense, choosing to live a patriarchy reinforcing lifestyle under the umbrella of bdsm will be seen by some feminists as not only an unhealthy individual choice (that a person is free to make), but an individual choice that has negative consequences on other women outside that individual's relationship. There are people out there who have put a great deal more thought into this than I have and can express it much more eloquently (none of whom are likely to drop into this forum. lol). What I'm trying to say is that when I've seen feminists criticize bdsm in general it's either garden variety vanilla prudery or, more frequently, an expression of concern about harm to women in general. I guess the point is that feminists critics in the latter group are not motivated by hatred of men, or a desire to control the lives of others, but a defensiveness to perceived harm to women outside the individual bdsm relationship. You may consider that defensiveness irrational, but if you don't recognize it, then you're not going to understand what those critics are arguing.

The extent to which the outside consequences/perceived harms are real and how to deal with them is something I struggle with as a feminist. I think it's truer than I want it to be, but not as bad as many suggest. But I also think that the concept of "sisterhood" is ultimately more patriarchy reinforcing bullshit.

As for dealing with my personal urges towards submissiveness, I don't have any problem reconciling it with my feminism because it's something I see based in reciprocity and equality. For me, it's about freely negotiated contracts, not property.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 20

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