leadership527
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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I think this is a false frame that is dismissive and unfair to the concerns expressed by many feminists. Possibly. I might stand to be corrected.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lucienne
The number of feminists who believe that "men are bad" and "detestable" is so small that you can safely ignore them unless you're dealing with a feminist who expressly identifies herself as someone who detests all men. Your opinion. As a male... especially during the mid to late 80's, I was on the receiving end of this and so, perhaps, have some specific opinions based on being on the persecuted side of the equation. I would agree that most THINKING feminists dont' find men detestable.. at least consciously. But among the masses, it is a sad truth that good ideas tend to get dumbed down. It's not a feminism thing. It happens in any movement. Actually, much more concerning to me is the generally accepted thought in our society that men are bad. A thought accepted by men and women alike pretty universally. You know, us brutish, insensitive, men whose cocks control our actions.
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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
Hating or resenting the patriarchy isn't the same thing as hating men. The patriarchy is bigger than all of us, and it has negative effects on men as well as women. On this, you and I are totally agreed. I guess the question I have in my mind is WHY do they resent the patriarchy? I probably did over simplify into two broad camps. For me, I hate the patriarchy insofar as it limits individual choice and reduces efficiency within our society. Frankly, from a societal standpoint, I'd just as soon if some person who was able and willing to be a CEO was that thing rather than being forced into a waitress job.
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Something that it is important to understand about feminism is that while it values and aspires to greater individual freedom, it recognizes that we live in a society that, to greater and lesser degrees, frequently ignores individuality. The idea that "she makes all women look bad," for example. White guys might jokingly deal with that notion in the context of dating, but rarely if ever in the workplace. White guys are allowed to be individual assholes and fuck ups in ways that women and minorities are not. A woman being an asshole will frequently have the flaw attributed to her gender, rather than her individual personality. Because of that tendency, the actions of individuals arguably do have an effect on how the group is treated.
See, now this I just plain disagree wtih totally. As a male, I get bashed on constantly due to my maleness. It happens regularly here on these boards as well as other places. This part of your reasoning seems a lot like a "grass is greener" argument. I might even go so far as to suggest (as I alluded to above) that the ways men are thought about are WAY more insidiously nasty than women. We desparately need a men's lib. But honestly, even a casual reading of collarme will show you VAST biases. Some of the things that people routinely write about men (and then get a ton of back pats by the sub pig pile) are so incredible that it amazed me these same women are actually seeking men. Often I laugh thinking, "Man oh man, if you just swapped the genders in that post, the peasants would be outside your door with torches and pitchforks."
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In that sense, choosing to live a patriarchy reinforcing lifestyle Your description, not mine. I am at a loss to understand how Carol's and my lifestyle in any sense whatsoever reinforces any thoughts on patriarchy. Let's remember that in the ways we're discussing here (authority, dominance, subservience), my "lifestyle" is the same as LadyPacts and Dame Calla's. It is only coincidental that it is the guy who is in charge. Sure sure, someone can do a wikipedia analysis followed up by a Jerry Springer interview and determine that my "lifestyle" (and honestly, I don't really know what that word means) is somehow reinforcing the patriarchy. But honestly, I don't really give much attention to people like that anyway. I'd personally LOVE to hear an actual thinking individual tell me how what I am doing with Carol is, in any way whatsoever, any sort of male dominance. It is not... It is dominant dominance. My maleness is coincidental to the question. And hey, if the whole notion of dominance is an offense to someone's sensibilities, then I can only suggest they join a different species.
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under the umbrella of bdsm will be seen by some feminists as not only an unhealthy individual choice (that a person is free to make), but an individual choice that has negative consequences on other women outside that individual's relationship. Dont' get me wrong, I am a staunch advocate of this line of reasoning. Unlike most people on Collarme, I do in fact recognize the role of societal debate and it's importance. Yup, some things are so virulent that even when done in public they are unacceptable. It's a perfectly valid question to ask whether or not this is in that category. I enjoy having such discussions with non-zealots.
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What I'm trying to say is that when I've seen feminists criticize bdsm in general it's either garden variety vanilla prudery *nods* Coupled with the generally discriminatory attitude that a great many people are willing to flaunt regarding the role of follower. Another interesting thought excercise is to just take a typical "anti-D/s" person and swap out "black" for "submissive" and see how the sentence reads. That's because submissive equates to follower and follower is not #1 and #1 must be better right? *sighs*.
Overall, your right in part. There's no way to capture the nuances and complexities of a movement spanning centuries and millions of people down to some simple sound byte in a post on the internet. On the other hand, you rather casually dismissed the darker tones as if they don't exist because they don't fit your model of feminism... just some deviant wacko's don't you know. I disagree with that.
It'd have been better to say, "I'm all about choice and opportunity. I'm not about thinking men are bad. I don't care if that makes me a feminist." Honestly, the truth is, I'm probably not a feminist. I'm a peopleist. I pretty much bring the same thoughts I have regarding women's rights to "white men's rights" and "gay rights" and any other kind of rights. So I'm fine with D/s so long as consent exists... consent by my definition *laughs*
_____________________________
~Jeff
I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael
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RE: submissive and feminist - 
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