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Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 9:22:56 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		I think this raises a lot of interesting questions.

First, is the administration's claim that releasing these photos would endanger our troops enough to outweigh Obama's promise of transparency in government. 

And if so, isn't this a tacit admission that terrorism works?

What of the public's right to know as the ACLU is claiming?  The Bush administration claimed these were isolated incidents, yet the photos apparently prove that these actions were widespread.

It also raises constitutional and legal arguments about whether Congress can step in and stop a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that has already reached the Supreme Court.

 

Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden


WASHINGTON – Congress is set to allow the Pentagon to keep new pictures of foreign detainees abused by their U.S. captors from the public, a move intended to end a legal fight over the photographs' release that has reached the Supreme Court.

Federal courts have so far rejected the government's arguments against the release of 21 color photographs showing prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq being abused by Americans.

The Obama administration believes giving the imminent grant of authority over the release of such pictures to the defense secretary would short-circuit a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union under the Freedom of Information Act.

The White House is asking the justices to put off consideration of the case until after a vote on the measure in the House and Senate, as early as this coming week. The provision is part of a larger homeland security spending bill and would allow the defense secretary to withhold photographs relating to detainees by certifying their release would endanger soldiers or other government workers.

The ACLU said the court should not disturb a ruling by the federal appeals court in New York ordering the photographs' release. The pending congressional action "does not supply any reason for delay," Jameel Jaffer, director of ACLU's national security project, told the court.

The dispute is on a list of cases the Supreme Court could act on Tuesday. Lower courts have ruled that a provision of FOIA allows documents to be withheld from the public for security reasons only in instances where there are specific threats against individuals.

President Barack Obama initially indicated he would not fight the release of the photographs. He reversed course in May and authorized an appeal to the high court. The president said he was persuaded that disclosure could further incite violence in Afghanistan and Iraq and endanger U.S. troops there.

The photographs at issue were taken by service members in Iraq and Afghanistan and were part of criminal investigations of alleged abuse. Some pictures show "soldiers pointing pistols or rifles at the heads of hooded and handcuffed detainees," Solicitor General Elena Kagan said in the appeal to the high court.

In one, "a soldier holds a broom as if 'sticking its end into the rectum of a restrained detainee,'" Kagan said, quoting from an investigation report prepared by the Pentagon. Two investigations led to criminal charges and convictions, she said.

......The ACLU, in seeking the other pictures, said the government had long argued that the abuse at Abu Ghraib was isolated and was an aberration. The new photos would show that the abuse was more widespread, the ACLU said..

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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 9:45:02 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Afternoon,

To what purpose would the ACLU put these photos if released? The only clear answer to that question, is a political use. I am not saying that in and of itself is not good cause for the filing of a FOIA request. Just that there are definitely other considerations that need to be weighed on these particular photos. Such as, they are clearly related to the defense dept, they are photos of prisoners, and according to the allegations also have the faces of service members in them.

From the same article, it states that there have already been criminal investigations (possibly a couple still ongoing this is only an assumption on my part), there have been convictions, and that the matter has been reviewed by the new administration and deemed to be a security and safety issue. I don't believe anybody thinks that the new administration would try to protect or cover up for the last administration. So for me this one is a simple, take it as it has been presented by the White House, it is probably not in the best interest of our men and women on the ground to have these photos released at this time.

It is an interesting tactic, the way in which they are trying to prevent or delay the release of these photos; as from my understanding it would only take an executive order to make the photos "classified". So the question arises, why put this provision into a homeland security spending bill? Could it be a way of getting the other side of the aisle to accept other provisions in the bill? You know, one of those, we will put this here but you need to accept x, y, and z things?

Just curious, is this the only area or issue that concerns you when it comes to transparency with the new administration?

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 9:56:28 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Obama broke his promise of transparancy in government way back in February when he failed to make his stimulus plan available for anyone/everyoneon to read five days before Congress voted on it.  So much for that question.

And since he broke that promise on his first opportunity to keep same, isn't that tacit admission that he's untrustworthy?

The public's right to know must be weighed against our troops right to the benefit of innocent until proven guilty, which the ACLU doesn't believe applies to those who voluntarily put their lives in harm's way to defend and protect the ACLU's right to believe that.  "...apparantly..." won't hold water in any court of law.

The Legislative branch (Congress) does not have Constitutional authority to interfere with the Judical branch (Courts).

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 10:17:37 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The ACLU, in seeking the other pictures, said the government had long argued that the abuse at Abu Ghraib was isolated and was an aberration. The new photos would show that the abuse was more widespread, the ACLU said..

Is there an actual case here? Because if the photos are found by the court to be directly evidentiary with respect to the ACLU's claims in a legal action, i.e., that they do not document events related to but outside of the scope of that action, which are being sought mainly to capitalize on their shock value, then I think they should of necessity be delivered into evidence. But, I see no compelling need to release them to the national news media for a horror show and hand-wringing party (Memo to Staff: hors d'oeuvres and advertisting revenue reports will be available in the lounge).

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2009 10:57:00 AM >

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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 11:43:22 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I heard a program on revelations radio.   Something about the region is full of evil spirits that can effect people.

Plausible.  IMO, tho- it does not excuse the wrong doing.

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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 12:01:01 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I heard a program on revelations radio. Something about the region is full of evil spirits that can effect people.

Absolutely true... I've seen them. They are incarnate and can definitely affect you.

They're called "terrorists"

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2009 12:05:49 PM >

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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 1:46:06 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I think maybe the ACLU should be suing all the broadcast networks and demanding they air every beheading-for-Allah video that gets released, in primetime, 7 nights a week, right after the nightly showings of the 9/11 videos.

I question the intelligence, and/or motivation, of anyone who thinks this is a good idea.



_____________________________

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 3:08:49 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I heard a program on revelations radio. Something about the region is full of evil spirits that can effect people.

Absolutely true... I've seen them. They are incarnate and can definitely affect you.

They're called "terrorists"

K.


http://revelationsradionetwork.com/    this is the link.   The series on the New World Order is worth a listen.  Even for non-believers.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 3:37:51 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

And if so, isn't this a tacit admission that terrorism works? ORIGINAL: rulemylife



Terrorism does work. Let's just look at the aftermath of 9/11.

First there is the actual damage done by the attack. over 3,000 people dead and billions of dollars in actual property damage. There is a hole in the ground where one of our great sky scrapers was eight years later. In the wake of the attack, our economy took a big hit (small by today's standards but rather effective for crashing two planes).

Then there are the damage done by our reactions. The terrorist attack goaded us into two wars that we have still not extricated ourselves from. These have put a strain on our economy that has made us more vulnerable to the latest collapse as well as making it harder for us to recover. Those wars also alienated us from the rest of the world, making diplomatic efforts on any front far more difficult if not impossible. Our fear from this attack caused us to become a nature that condoned torture as an official policy. It even caused us, in a vastly symbolic act, to close the statue of liberty for more than half a decade.

Have no doubt, terrorism worked in this case. We as a country let it work.


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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 3:46:17 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		and whacked us in the pocketbook, and allowed others in the world to advance their economies and positions of power while we were decimating ours and not advancing our own.....and adding puce and mauve to the list of terror touchie feelies....at a cost of

and there is yet more.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 10/10/2009 3:47:31 PM >

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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 9:17:43 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I think this raises a lot of interesting questions.

First, is the administration's claim that releasing these photos would endanger our troops enough to outweigh Obama's promise of transparency in government. 

And if so, isn't this a tacit admission that terrorism works?

Terrorism does work.

What of the public's right to know as the ACLU is claiming?  The Bush administration claimed these were isolated incidents, yet the photos apparently prove that these actions were widespread.

The right of the public to be informed vrs. the safety of military personnel.  Since we are still at war then the safety concern are paramount.


It also raises constitutional and legal arguments about whether Congress can step in and stop a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that has already reached the Supreme Court.

The resulting legal actions in this matter are going to be interesting to observe.



_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 10:42:29 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Terrorism does work.


See, that's where it gets confusing as to what message we want to be sending.

Are we going to say "yes, your tactics are working and we are afraid of you" or are we going to tell them we are willing to pay the price for a free society?


quote:

The right of the public to be informed vrs. the safety of military personnel.  Since we are still at war then the safety concern are paramount.



So it is safety at all costs, even if we have to sacrifice the very things we claim to be fighting for?








< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/10/2009 10:45:11 PM >

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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 10:55:43 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

So for me this one is a simple, take it as it has been presented by the White House, it is probably not in the best interest of our men and women on the ground to have these photos released at this time.


That all brings me back to my original question of how can we be claiming to fight terrorism when we are admitting we are fearful of angering the terrorists?

quote:


Just curious, is this the only area or issue that concerns you when it comes to transparency with the new administration?



No, it's not, but I never expected to not have concerns or misgivings about any administration.

And the transparency, while not fully what was promised, is a huge improvement over the Bush era.

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 10:57:56 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What of the public's right to know...?

The public's right to know can be served without publishing those photographs. Even if they must be obtained in order to gain the knowledge necessary to serve the public's right to know, they don't need to be used to start a fucking game of "Ain't it Awful" in the media. That's the line I'm trying to draw.

K.

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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 10:58:10 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Have no doubt, terrorism worked in this case. We as a country let it work.



Which is my primary point.


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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 11:09:32 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Afternoon,

To what purpose would the ACLU put these photos if released? The only clear answer to that question, is a political use. I am not saying that in and of itself is not good cause for the filing of a FOIA request. Just that there are definitely other considerations that need to be weighed on these particular photos. Such as, they are clearly related to the defense dept, they are photos of prisoners, and according to the allegations also have the faces of service members in them.

From the same article, it states that there have already been criminal investigations (possibly a couple still ongoing this is only an assumption on my part), there have been convictions, and that the matter has been reviewed by the new administration and deemed to be a security and safety issue. I don't believe anybody thinks that the new administration would try to protect or cover up for the last administration. So for me this one is a simple, take it as it has been presented by the White House, it is probably not in the best interest of our men and women on the ground to have these photos released at this time.

It is an interesting tactic, the way in which they are trying to prevent or delay the release of these photos; as from my understanding it would only take an executive order to make the photos "classified". So the question arises, why put this provision into a homeland security spending bill? Could it be a way of getting the other side of the aisle to accept other provisions in the bill? You know, one of those, we will put this here but you need to accept x, y, and z things?

Just curious, is this the only area or issue that concerns you when it comes to transparency with the new administration?

I wish you well,
Thadius
So this is what we choose to accept on face value from the White House?


< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 10/10/2009 11:11:29 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 11:25:40 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Sorry about parsing your words Thadius.....but to read the suggesstion that we should accept on face value the security concerns espoused by this Administration....on a forum where some question just about every other move made by the Administration....is just a bit rich in irony.
For myself anytime my gov't(no matter the party at the top)tells me I'm better off,safer or just plain don't need to know.....I get awful curious.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/10/2009 11:35:49 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Is there an actual case here? Because if the photos are found by the court to be directly evidentiary with respect to the ACLU's claims in a legal action, i.e., that they do not document events related to but outside of the scope of that action, which are being sought mainly to capitalize on their shock value, then I think they should of necessity be delivered into evidence. But, I see no compelling need to release them to the national news media for a horror show and hand-wringing party (Memo to Staff: hors d'oeuvres and advertisting revenue reports will be available in the lounge).

K.



Yes, there is a Freedom of Information Act case which has only to do with that, there is no legal issue other than can the government withhold these photos without violating the FOIA.

And the administration is attempting to bypass the court rulings by having Congress make an exception to their own legislation.

Compelling need to know is not the issue.  The basis of the law is the public has a right to know.  The government doesn't get to decide "well, you really don't need to know about that".  They have to make a valid case that it would endanger national security by revealing the photos, which several courts have already said they did not. 

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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/11/2009 6:28:21 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Sorry about parsing your words Thadius.....but to read the suggesstion that we should accept on face value the security concerns espoused by this Administration....on a forum where some question just about every other move made by the Administration....is just a bit rich in irony.
For myself anytime my gov't(no matter the party at the top)tells me I'm better off,safer or just plain don't need to know.....I get awful curious.

Long time no see Mike.

No worries. My point, and perhaps I should have worded it more clearly, is that the previous adminstration and the current administration seem to be in agreement on this issue. Knowing that the new folks in the White House would not go out of their way to help the previous....

See where I am goin with that?

Also, just look at the safety and security risks that such a release of photos presents. In time the photos will be released, and people will be able to make of them what they wish. For now, I think I side with the government.

Finally, why is this the one issue that I see folks calling the administration on it's pledge for transparency? There are quite a few other areas, that things have gotten more opaque.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Congress set to act to keep abuse photos hidden - 10/11/2009 8:31:37 AM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		.. and above all, we must preserve the illusion that somehow, the government of the USA is somehow above the tactics that we accuse so many dictatorships, bannana republics, and politically despotic governments of: torture and abuse.

To debate it in abstract is one thing... it's quite another to see someone like PFC Wendi smiling and giving the "thumbs up" as we allow a handcuffed prisoner (in all likelihood, some guy we just pulled off the streets in Bhagdad because we thought he looked suspicious...) to have his cock bitten off by an attack dog, the prisoner's blood flooding the dirty tiled floor.

The stuff we saw from 2004, with the Abhu Grahib photos, was just a fraction of the total available (according to the guy who snuck the photo disc out) and there was far, far worse going on than what those photos depicted.

If they'd all come to light, why, public opinion would have turned against "The War on Terror" and suddenly Halliburton wouldn't be able to syphon billions off the war effort. Cheany wouldn't get his kickbacks. And Bush would have had to give up his favorite toys: the torture and wiretapping programs.  

But, I'm willing to bet that eventually those photos, depicting just how bad things have gotten both overseas and at GITMO, will be leaked... probably during the next Presidential election cyle... if only as a reminder why we all moved away from GOP rule, and why republicans shouldn't ever be elected to any post higher than "road kill sanitation" at the local city dump.

(in reply to Thadius)
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