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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 1:25:27 PM

samboct

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Churches own thousands of parcels in the five boroughs. The Catholic Church, in Brooklyn and Queens alone, has about 220 parishes that include about 1,000 parcels of property, said John Tynan, director of housing for the Catholic Charities of Brooklyn and Queens. Citywide in fiscal year 2007, the Department of Finance recorded 9,545 parcels owned by religious institutions that had exemptions from paying property taxes, according to agency spokesman Owen Stone.

from : http://www.citylimits.org/content/articles/viewarticle.cfm?article_id=3514
Gee- if the average parcel they own is worth a couple of million (pretty typical in the boroughs)- well, that's a few billion or so- and that's just Manhattan.
Seems to me that vast wealth of the church is not an understatement, although exact figures may be difficult to pin down.
Sam

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Post #: 41

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 1:27:06 PM

mnottertail

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yeah, but they don't OWN MANHATTAN......

LOL, talk about quibbling over mouse turds.

Ron

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 2:19:59 PM

tazzygirl

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Odd how the fact that the Catholic Charities receives government funding. Lets not mention the number of paintings and other artwork produced by the Masters and owned, exclusively, by the Church. And, please, lets not mention the multi-million dollar contract the Church just negotiated.

Better yet, lets....

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Post #: 43

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 3:11:00 PM

Ialdabaoth

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Repeating and refining my prior statement...

WEALTH IS A RED HERRING.

It doesn't matter whether all these institutions have enough money to buy everyone a Big Mac or not. We HAVE enough food. We HAVE enough stuff to go around.

What we lack is the will to distribute it all fairly.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 44

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 3:24:44 PM

mcbride

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

so, if I could make 37 cents per catholic per year, thats still alotta money left over after a two bit whore and roll of quarters.

maybe they had some years worse than that, but the chigago diocese holds 2billion (american) worth of income producing properties alone.

you can search the link if you want, but they have vast wealth, don't take my word for it, cause I ain't buying your arguements by a damn site.

So, yes, Chicago, not surprisingly, is the richest diocese on the planet, with 2.3 million Catholics, so you did well by picking it.

I'm not sure where your two billion figure came from, since you didn't indicate. The 2007 financial statement shows total assets of $527 million and net assets of $179 million. The investment portfolio -- that would be stocks plus those income-generating properties -- was $1.36 billion.

That pays for 363 parishes, 258 schools, six colleges and universities serving 49,200 students, 19 hospitals, and about 7,800 full-time employees, including 5,612 teachers. It also helps pay for social programs -- you know, feeding and sheltering folks, just over a million folks.

And, shit, they'll hire anyone. The church’s Campaign for Human Development financed Barack Obama's NGO, during his time as a community organizer in Chicago.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 45

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 3:31:09 PM

mnottertail

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well, we know what their income is in charitable receiving, hows about what is their outlay in charitable giving?

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 46

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 6:17:10 PM

tazzygirl

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That pays for 363 parishes, 258 schools, six colleges and universities serving 49,200 students, 19 hospitals, and about 7,800 full-time employees, including 5,612 teachers. It also helps pay for social programs -- you know, feeding and sheltering folks, just over a million folks.

Your source states...
DEMOGRAPHIC PROFILE OF THE ARCHDIOSE

and then lists what you listed as part of the Archdiose. From that, you want us to believe that the Church pays for it all.

Ahem. Dont believe so. The Universities charge tuition and encourage the students to sign of for federal grants and loans.

Your one million figure stems from here...

CATHOLIC CHARITIES

1 million people served
159 types of services
156 locations[code]

yet the catholic population is stated to be...

2,338,000

Your source for financial records includes the following you.. ahem.. may have overlooked
page 10
Charitable Activities.... "A significant portion of the funding for several of the programs is received from federal, state, or local governmental agencies."
Oh, lookie... smiles... page 13... under Insurance... those lawsuits are listed.. you remember the ones... about "sexual misconduct"... quite a substantial hit.. and of course a burden the church HAS to carry forward in the financial statements. Not exactly what i would consider normal operating costs.

Financial

The following information is based on Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Chicago's audited financial statements for the year ended June, 30 2008.

Source of Funds

Fees and grants from governmental agencies
137,175,000

Program-related contributions
16,608,000

Contributions
10,560,000

Program service fees
4,534,000

Bequests
3,815,000

United Way pledges
3,629,000

Interest and dividends
1,727,000

Net realized gain on investments
1,389,000

In-Kind Donations
1,247,000

Other revenue
355,000

Pension related changes other than net periodic cost
-58,000

Loss on disposal of assets
-229,000

Net unrealized loss on investments
-3,960,000

Total Income
$176,792,000
Uses of Funds as a % of Total Expenses

Programs: 91% Fund Raising: 2% Administrative: 7%

Total income

$176,792,000

Program expenses
$165,696,000

Fund raising expenses
3,045,000

Administrative expenses
13,520,000

Total expenses

$182,261,000

Expenses in Excess of Income

(5,469,000)

Beginning net assets

54,758,000

Other Changes in Net Assets

250,000

Ending net assets

49,539,000

Total liabilities

206,813,000

Total assets

$256,352,000 Now, i have no doubt the Church can streamline their organization. And they do alot of good, worldwide. They also hide alot of funds amid the good. BTW, those figures i posted came from the http://www.bbb.org/charity-reviews/chicago/human-services/catholic-charities-of-the-archdiocese-of-chicago-in-chicago-il-15465 i really dont see the figures you "suggested" anywhere. Lets talk about fundraising for a moment. The Seattle Archdiocese expects to receive more than $13 million this year compared with about $12 million in 2008. The Archdiocese of Cincinnati raised $3.4 million – below the more than $4 million collected in 2001 but almost $1 million more than last year.
The Diocese of Providence in Rhode Island raised $7.8 million in its 2009 appeal, about $17,000 more than last year in a state where the June unemployment rate of 12.4 percent was the country’s second-highest. The Chicago Archdiocese – about halfway through its annual drive – was running about $1 million ahead of this time last year. http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/aug/01/news/chi-ap-oh-catholicgiving Say what you wish, in comparison to the rest of the charities and giving associations, the Catholic Church has far more wealth than any. More art work, more real estate, ect.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to mcbride)

Post #: 47

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/17/2009 2:13:45 AM

mcbride

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Yeah. So, to recap, you're shocked, shocked, to learn that a large organization that was running schools, hospitals and programs for the poor before the government got into it...now gets government money to carry out some of those functions on behalf of the government.

Oh, the humanity. Oh, the bastards! Sneakily educating kids, feeding homeless folks, and treating the sick with the help of federal, state and local government. I really think you should call a newspaper. You know, if they're not in on the conspiracy.

Probably you should contact that writer you cited here as a credible source, you know, who wrote "The Mafia of The Vatican is Directed by The Antichrist 666", or one of those other writers over at religioushate.com.

And thanks for reposting the data I'd previously posted.

Oooo, and, look, you ripped the lid off fundraising in Seattle, Cincinnati, and Providence. $3.4 million in Cinci? Wow. That screams of corruption, huh? I'm dazzled, of course.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 48

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/17/2009 8:09:47 AM

tazzygirl

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~chuckles

no one is shocked. no one doubted. you wanted proof because you had something stuck in your posterior. proof was given.

now, please, do find something sunstantial to fill your day.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to mcbride)

Post #: 49

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/17/2009 10:49:40 AM

mcbride

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Proof, indeed. I showed you the Vatican's finances...then suddenly, since that didn't work, we were off to Chicago, so I showed you their financial statements -- all of which anyone can scroll back and read -- whereupon you told us that annual fundraisers in Seattle, Cincinnati, and Providence exist, shockingly enough.

If million dollar fundraisers in million-Catholic dioceses in the richest country on Earth to pay for churches, schools, hospitals and food programs constitute "vast wealth" for you, fabulous, knock yourself out.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 50

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/17/2009 11:19:40 AM

tazzygirl

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And we have shown you the vast wealth of the Vatican. Wealth does not mean just what they take in and pay out. I would have thought you would know better than that.

No matter how demeaning you wish to be. No matter how you may wish to twist and contort things to your own point of view. the Church is extremey rich... incredibly rich... i would say it is one of the richest organizations/religions/charities/ect on earth.

http://booking.siteseeings.com/book_185-1.html

This site gives just a smidgeon of what the church holds. Try and convince others. We arent buying it.

as far as the rest

quote:

If million dollar fundraisers in million-Catholic dioceses in the richest country on Earth to pay for churches, schools, hospitals and food programs constitute "vast wealth" for you, fabulous, knock yourself out

I have repeatedly shown where the Church gets government funding for many, many of these. You simply wish to ignore that fact.

The church has also negotiated a contract worth multi-millions, also another fact you wish to ignore.

You want to paint the church as some glorious, poverty stricken charity... It does good work. Its also rich as Midas.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 10/17/2009 11:22:34 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to mcbride)

Post #: 51

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/18/2009 11:49:35 PM

mcbride

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Finally, days later, she concedes "they do alot of good, worldwide." I should be grateful.

Here's the problem. You simply make up fiction about what I've said. There's a word for that. And I don't appreciate it.

I've never said anything like "poverty stricken", so please, stop putting words in my mouth. What I've done, repeatedly, point out the very large gap between that and your claims, about the church's "vast wealth." (" extremey rich... incredibly rich")

And I didn't ignore the fact that, obviously, it gets some money from governments for running, for example, schools and hospitals. I made fun of you for trying to turn that into part of your vast conspiracy. I still can't figure out why you think it's shocking.

I did not say "the Church pays for it all." I said the income in Chicago pays for 363 parishes, 258 schools, six colleges and universities serving 49,200 students, 19 hospitals, and about 7,800 full-time employees, including 5,612 teachers. It also helps pay for social programs -- you know, feeding and sheltering folks, just over a million folks. To pretend you didn't know there are government subsidies to send people, Catholics and non-Catholics, to those institutions, or that there is a thing called tuition, is a bit hard to believe. To then pretend that government money for some of those services is somehow scandalous is a bit silly. To deliberately misquote me is not terribly honest.

I've shown you the budgets, the assets, which contradict the hate authors you quoted (and anyone who wants to challenge the term "hate authors" should go to the index of the book you cited here as authorative.)

I've put the real amounts into context: the income in the Vatican's 2007 budget, including real estate, is less than Rush Limbaugh's latest contract, and less than what lobbyists spent on Washington lawmakers last year.

The priceless art you like to go on about can't be sold, but sending it on tour does provide a bit more of the income that pays for more food, shelter, and health care to more poor people than any other organization on the planet provides. For, roughly, the 1000th straight year.

The church is an easy target. I'm no fan of the displays of opulence, in part because it encourages people like you to make things up, and obscure the fact that the money pays for that food, shelter, and health care.

Still, anyone who looks at the size of the institution, and isn't simply driven by their own prejudices, will see pretty quickly that the amounts are not large, considering the mandate.

And I'm happy to keep setting the record straight, just as long as you want to continue this.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 52

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/19/2009 1:42:18 AM

Ialdabaoth

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From: Tempe, AZ
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Are you guys seriously still arguing about the Catholic church?

Fun statistical fact: Somewhere around 600 people have starved to death since we started this little diversion.

I wonder how many it was, exactly?

I wonder what their names were?

I wonder what they would have wanted to do with their lives?

(in reply to mcbride)

Post #: 53

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/19/2009 2:37:03 AM

HatesParisHilton

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anyone mention aestheists donating their bodies to barbeques yet?

I mean, if everything is "over" upon death, no reason to have a problem "feeding the (living) poor", right?

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/19/2009 6:53:40 AM

tazzygirl

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Im not. I placed him on ignore.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 55

RE: How to feed the world! - 10/19/2009 8:49:36 AM

mcbride

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Joined: 1/14/2005
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You're underestimating a tad. The UN says it's 18,000 a day, and this thread started eight days ago..so 144,000.

I wonder who's been doing the most about that over those eight days. Oh, hold on, here it is.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 56

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