RE: Raped Mistress?

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 2:37:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissCake There's just not enough detail here to say - "certain things", I dunno what that is. Is it legally rape - is that the question? If so, it's really hard to say based on what we know. If she feels strongly it was, then she should consult a lawyer. Are you asking more like - "can she say she was raped"? Yeah, if she feels deeply violated, how she self-defines the situation is up to her. Does it empower her to call it rape? Will defining it as such help hear learn more about herself and how to handle future situations? The way I see it, whether it was rape or not isn't relevant except legally. That she feels icky, violated, used - that is what's relevant, and now the most important thing is for her to take something of value from the situation. Yeah, that. To me, the whole thing just sounds very weird. There's not enough information to really form an opinion. My initial impression, based on the OP, is that it doesn't sound as though she had a very clear understanding of what was happening at the time, and doesn't have a very clear understanding now. That's about as much of an opinion as I can formulate. I wish her the best in working through it and finding some sort of peace of mind.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 2:39:11 PM)
Wish that were true... you DID follow the latest contretemps on the Michigan boards, right?

Politesub53 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 2:49:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressSoliel Coming from experience, I would consider that incident rape. It is rape simply because she said no. Regardless of her reasoning for not struggling or refusing more, she said no and he persisted. That by definition is rape. In the court system her persistent refusal by saying no would constitute the sexual activity as un wanted and therefore rape. This would be the case under UK law. Consent has to be given and the defendant has to prove that he thought he had been given consent. If someone clearly said "No" then it would be rape, even if they didnt try and fight the guy off.

Passion8Kisser -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 2:56:39 PM)
I think that ultimately she's the only one who can decide, and who should decide (outside of a trial, medical examiners and other qualified professionals) if it is a rape. She should then decide of her own accord if she should persue prosecution if she feels she was raped. The rest of us sitting around judging a situation from no offense third party information, is just not right. Had it been me, and I had said no, well first there would be a red word as well, cuz I'm sub enough to know sometimes no doesn't sound like it means no, and sometimes No is the furthest thing from what I mean. The red word on the other hand means STOP! IF she had a red word and she used it, it meant stop. I think the fact that I had said no repeatedly would have meant no though. I also think the entire story sounds like a scene that should have been stopped before it got so far.

Lockit -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 3:01:01 PM)
Something can legally be seen as rape and still not be able to stand up in court. I think she needs to find her way through this and make sure she learns all she can about herself as she can... and move on. I know that I would struggle with knowing there was a rape and letting a rapist get off and maybe do it to another... but sometimes there isn't anything you can do. If she really feels violated she may need to go the legal route and I just hope that she is very sure of what happened. Blaming a victim or belittling it all or not taking legal action is as messed up as accusing someone on flaky grounds or falsehood based on anything including emotional things. A rape crisis center would say she was raped. Even a police officer could say so, because she told him no repeatedly and he didn't stop. What a court would say... would be interesting but... I am sure they would have more information. I'm afraid even with changes to rape cases and how things are done, they would rip her apart and many wouldn't even press charges on the guy unless there was more to the story and they didn't blame someone for being in the position in the first place. They don't like to charge people in cases they feel wouldn't stand up in court. I would simply support her in what she does do without encouraging anything or any direction. I could not be a part of what could be an injustice if things were so confusing. I'd offer hugs... but no direction unless she really knew what happened for sure and I knew more details.

DaemonLocke -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 4:16:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FoxyDom Call the Police because he will do it again to some other "Domme" You don't call the police when the dog humps your leg. Call an experienced Domme who will kick his ass and train him right.

aidan -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 5:42:42 PM)
A response to just lovingpet's original post because...I don't have it in me today to deal with the rest. She said no. She said "no" in a way that meant "no", not "we're playing i'm saying no but that's not the safeword so it doesn't matter." She said no multiple times, and he persisted. Now she feels used and violated - lovingpet's words, apparently quoting her friend - after the fact. All other things being equal, yes, this is rape. This is rape. It may not be some "iconic" form of the crime but the base, constiuent parts are there. That this is being debated makes me feel very, very ill.

lovingpet -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 5:55:24 PM)
In all honesty, I have to agree. I hate the way I am responding to her in this because I really think she needs to be believed and supported at this time. I am muddled and confused when I probably shouldn't be. She stated she said no repeatedly, but inch by inch he took over the whole mile. This wasn't part of the plan. It wasn't a switch scene in which he was supposed to flip the tables. It was "no" folloed by continued unwanted advances resulting in sex. At the same time, I just don't see any point in dragging it through court. If it is what she needs to bring peace, then so be it. I just know, for me, it wouldn't be worth all the further exposure of my private live and further exploiting my vunlerable areas. Sure, it may happen to someone else, but in this case, I don't see it as a battle I would win, if it were me. It's not though. It is her and she has to make the best decision for herself. lovingpet

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 6:17:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet In all honesty, I have to agree. I hate the way I am responding to her in this because I really think she needs to be believed and supported at this time. I am muddled and confused when I probably shouldn't be. She stated she said no repeatedly, but inch by inch he took over the whole mile. This wasn't part of the plan. It wasn't a switch scene in which he was supposed to flip the tables. It was "no" folloed by continued unwanted advances resulting in sex. At the same time, I just don't see any point in dragging it through court. If it is what she needs to bring peace, then so be it. I just know, for me, it wouldn't be worth all the further exposure of my private live and further exploiting my vunlerable areas. Sure, it may happen to someone else, but in this case, I don't see it as a battle I would win, if it were me. It's not though. It is her and she has to make the best decision for herself. lovingpet The one thing that I get stuck on in this thread is - what does she think? You haven't said. I think the most you've said is that she feels used and violated, but "used and violated" can cover a lot of things that still fall way this side of "rape." It sounds as though she's had quite a bit of time to think this through. What is her opinion?

lovingpet -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 6:28:17 PM)
I've kind of kept her opinion out of it intentionally, but since the question has been raised, she does believe it to be rape. She is highly conflicted about what to do about it and ended any further dealings with the man immediately after this incident (read as soon as she could do it from the safety of her home and computer screen). lovingpet

aidan -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 6:30:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet I've kind of kept her opinion out of it intentionally, but since the question has been raised, she does believe it to be rape. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the end of the academic debate portion of the thread. Now, yes, the question is how does she deal with this? And that's really not for us to weigh in on.

lovingpet -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 6:37:58 PM)
That wasn't the point of the thread, however. See, I am interested in how the actual event would be viewed by others because, if she decides to press charges, it will be other people who will be deciding by various scales, both legal and personal, whether or not she was raped, regardless of what she believes. I can accept that she believes she was raped and can do my best to support her through it. I will admit to not having done so well with that up to this point. Still, I have accepted her experience as valid. What I can't do is say to her that others are going to view it the same way. That is why the debate at all. She is aware of this thread and agreed to the posting. Granted, in my opinion, it would have been better told first person, but that she was not willing to do. My point was to give her some indication of how people would approach this and what their responses would be. I didn't know how it would go and there was no motive on my part except to do what I could to help her come to her own decision on the matter. I hope that makes sense. lovingpet

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 7:30:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aidan quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet I've kind of kept her opinion out of it intentionally, but since the question has been raised, she does believe it to be rape. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the end of the academic debate portion of the thread. Now, yes, the question is how does she deal with this? And that's really not for us to weigh in on. Well, there ya go! If she sees it that way, then it was so. SHE is the one that was there, after all. I stand by what I said, if it had happened to me. Now, I am not going to go all hog wild and suggest she prosecute or some such thing. But, she does need help dealing with this situation, obviously. I am so glad that she has cut off contact with the man! This is not one of those "I can fix it by being more domly" situations.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 8:09:01 PM)
Ah! I see now. Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me. I understand why you played it close to the vest, but now I see it much more clearly. I've always been of the opinion that any sexual activity that comes after a firm, unequivocal "no" is rape. From the way you were wording your earlier posts, it sounded to me as though she wasn't entirely clear in her own mind whether she'd really been raped. Which suggested to me that perhaps she herself wasn't quite sure just how unequivocal her "no's" had been; which, in turn, gave me grave doubts whether a prosecutor or jury would think she had. I've served on juries; I've seen the way attorneys carve up witnesses and victims who show the slightest uncertainty. So. Having said that... yes, I can see why you and she might both have concerns about how the case might be handled. I don't know what any of us could really say about that, because it would come down to the specific details of that particular incident and how credible the two principles (she and he) are on the witness stand. I don't think the "sordid" details of their relationship would necessarily make it more difficult to get a conviction, because in this day and age, it's nothing they haven't seen a hundred times on various police shows. It doesn't have the same "scandal" factor it probably would have had 20 years ago. But then again, you can never predict what a jury will do, or how well any given prosecutor or defense attorney will do their job. All I can say is that it could go any number of ways, and there's just no way to assign likelihoods. I wish I could give some more useful advice, but I'm afraid I just can't think of anything more substantive than that. Best of luck to her with whatever decision she makes, and with whatever process she needs to follow to get past this. I'm sure we're all pulling for her.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/12/2009 9:53:26 PM)
Just a Fast Reply to the thread in general: Any human being can be raped, regardless of sex and orientation, but like many others, I tend to reserve the word "rape" for clear situations where one party says "no" and the clearly expressed wish is not respected.

Acer49 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/13/2009 7:21:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet Is this possible? In light of a recent event, I am curious. This has come up in a certain circle with whom I speak regularly. The gal, like me, is switchie and tends to be more heavily submissive, but can be sparked by just the right subbie. She tends to be more submissive to men and dominant toward women. She took a new prospective male submissive into private for the first time the other day. He persisted in "wanting to please" her sexually. For whatever reason, he managed to push things further and further and the session ended with her feeling strangely used and violated despite she was supposedly in control of the whole thing. Before the question comes up, yes she said no to many things and repeatedly and no. she did not struggle for unknown reason, probably just trying to get her mind around what was happening. What do you think? Was this rape? lovingpet By legal definition it is rape because consent was not freely given. It is black letter law. No means no. period.

Andalusite -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/13/2009 8:02:47 AM)
Women, even vanilla respectable ones, are often "put on trial" when they are raped. It's essentially the prosecutor's job to argue that she wanted it and consented to it, no matter how violent he was, even if she never met him before. "Date rape," where the woman and men already were consensually involved in other things and were together consentually at the start, is even more so. If she feels that the trial would do her more harm than good, or can't face it, that's her decision. Saying that you don't sympathise with her just because she was the Domme seems really cold, especially if she was supposedly your friend. If he weighed twice as much as she did, and physically overpowered her as soon as they were alone, maybe holding a knife to her, would you still feel the same way? I could understand there possibly being some confusion if she were the submissive/bottom, or if it was a switch scene, needing to use a safeword rather than no, and violence in those ways is often consentual. Forcing the Dominant to have sex while they are verbally or physically objecting is not a common part of scenes.

malloves69 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/13/2009 9:04:01 AM)
how many times does a lady have to say no before its considered rape ? no means no right ? ...if she tells me no ..i stop ..its no ...its up to her to change her mind from a no to a yes ..just my opinion of course ..have fun mal [:)] no means no

ShaktiSama -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/13/2009 12:42:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet In all honesty, I have to agree. I hate the way I am responding to her in this because I really think she needs to be believed and supported at this time. I am muddled and confused when I probably shouldn't be. I think that what causes the ambivalence and confusion of dealing with a raped peer is an defensive desire to ward off the event. Even fully empathizing with a raped person is so painful that many people avoid it instinctively, especially if they would normally identify strongly with the victim--if they feel that they have anything in common with this person, denying that she was victimized is a way of denying that they themselves could ever be victimized. "She was in control and is responsible for what happened" is a way of saying "I am in control and responsible for what happens"--translation "This will not and could not happen to me". In this case, your friend and you have a similar D/S orientation, so I think this principle is coming into play. There may also be some confusion as to whether the events in question are "her fault" because she is sometimes submissive, and more often submissive with male partners--switch orientation is often misunderstood or thought to be ambiguous by those who are more solidly "singular" dom or sub. Personally, I suspect that being a switch is no different than being a bisexual--being bi doesn't mean you're dying for a threesome with that cute waitress he brings home from the bar, and being switch doesn't mean that you are willing to swap roles with just anyone at any time. What makes me uncomfortable about the tone of some of the responses here is the suggestion that something like this happens because a woman is "not dommely enough". Just to repeat what has already been said: any person, of any orientation, can be violated by someone they attempt to be intimate with. It happens to male dominants, it happens to female dominants, it happens to submissives and to vanillas. People who force sex, or corrupt the negotiations that surround sex to get what THEY want and their partner does not? Are everywhere and can hit you any time. If you don't think so, ask some of the male doms or dominant couples to tell you their worst horror stories about a time that they brought a woman in as a "slave" and she proceeded to try to control or ruin their lives. I would agree that this is probably not a rape by the legalistic definition--i.e., I do not feel that if it was brought to trial, it would result in a successful prosecution followed by jail time for the offender. That does not mean it was not rape, it just means that the legal system is not configured to help the victim of such an experience or protect people from being taken advantage of in this particular way. I can't tell you what the solution is in this case. Supporting your friend is obviously very important. And I can say from experience that sometimes, social solutions are helpful, in that they help prevent more people being victimized. Call it "gossip" if you will, but a guy who tries to force sex on women of any orientation deserves to be wearing a few red flags.

NovelApproach -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/18/2009 5:01:39 AM)
Speaking as a Psychologist, as a former help line techie, a feminist, and a rape survivor, I can say in all certainty that I believe that she was raped. I can also say that it's highly unlikely that a jury will agree. I'm not going to advise either for or against perusing legal action, but I will definitely say that doing so will be VERY, VERY difficult. It's an emotionally draining process during which she will be forced to relive the experience many times, will have her entire sex life called into question as though it somehow matters, will be blamed, will likely lose friends, and in the end, may see him walk free. On the other hand, being that I never sought legal recourse against my attacker, I experience a lot of guilt and "what if" and have to live with the knowledge that he's out there somewhere, likely hurting other women. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I wish your friend the best of luck. Sometimes there are happy endings to these stories - often not the happy ending you hoped for, but one that's worth it all the same. ETA: Does anyone else here have a problem with the way rape is defined by whether or not a woman is kicking and screaming, rather than whether or not she has given her consent? That consent is still defined as the absence of a no, rather than the presence of a yes? Cause every time I think about it, I am so squicked that Furries seem tame by comparison. And to anyone about to ask "So what, do you expect people not to do anything unless their partner is screaming 'yes, Yes, YES!' or something of the sort?" My reply is this - "do you really have a problem with your partner screaming "YES!" at you? Cause I really like that, and get enjoy it often."

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