RE: Feminism

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SnowRanger -> RE: Feminism (10/31/2009 8:11:57 PM)
Some years back I heard "Don't patronize me!" so often that I gave door holding up. Except for people with their arms full, I quit holding doors for anyone at all.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (10/31/2009 8:57:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: estah Greetings Shakti, You are extremely dangerous to females as a whole. It is bad for a female to be submissive and a male to be dominant, but perfectly of for females to be dominant and males to be submissive. Where is the equality in that?????????? Just had a look at your profile. Your words are: I have a wonderful submissive at the moment and I am not looking for others. verity Since you insist on harrassing me in public as well as in private, I will answer you in public as well as in private. Short answer: the idea that I am more dangerous to women than people like you, who BLAME FEMINISM and FEMINISTS for your "victimhood" when ONE MAN RAPES YOU and ANOTHER MAN ABANDONS YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN is really "Beyond the Valley of the Imbeciles" moronic. You and female submissives like you are every bit as frightening and disgusting in your way as a Moony who tries to kidnap people at the airport to be brainwashed to serve the Reverend. No, I'm sorry, the rest of us are never going to magically realize how "dangerous" and "wrong" it is for us to have some OPTION as to whether we spend a life in service to men. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I have no issue with people who choose to submit to men in their personal lives. But I am not going to be forced to live in a world modeled on their bedrooms. And that's non-negotiable. No amount of unblinking pie-eyed cultists with frozen rictus smiles of "joy" on their faces are going to change my mind. shiver Jeeeezily Christ. You people just get creepier each and every day. Perhaps because you hunger to find such a man who will put you to your knees and show you the side of being female you are missing... yet you also fear him? hmmm... the possibilities

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (10/31/2009 9:03:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SnowRanger Some years back I heard "Don't patronize me!" so often that I gave door holding up. Except for people with their arms full, I quit holding doors for anyone at all. I hold open doors and always say thank you when the effort is returned. Some women have gone silly in their ideas of feminism.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (10/31/2009 10:38:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Perhaps because you hunger to find such a man who will put you to your knees and show you the side of being female you are missing... yet you also fear him? hmmm... the possibilities Fully explored, thanks. If you think I am so lacking in curiosity and imagination that I never wondered whether it was fun to be on the other side of things? Think again. I've dominated both men and women over the years, and it's always been clear to me that the submissives are having a BUCKETLOAD of fun.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 5:00:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Perhaps because you hunger to find such a man who will put you to your knees and show you the side of being female you are missing... yet you also fear him? hmmm... the possibilities Fully explored, thanks. If you think I am so lacking in curiosity and imagination that I never wondered whether it was fun to be on the other side of things? Think again. I've dominated both men and women over the years, and it's always been clear to me that the submissives are having a BUCKETLOAD of fun. lol... your right. being submissive towards a male (or female for some i suppose) is a bucketload of fun. i enjoy being at his feet, catering to his needs, delighting in the sight, smell and taste of him. Thats within the home. Outside of it, i enjoy being his woman, someone he holds hands with, opens doors for, treats with deference and public respect. How that brings you or any other woman back to the dark ages, i have no clue. Parts of this thread have been funny as all get out. I have especially enjoyed a few chuckles over your threads. Thank you!

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 5:37:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: SnowRanger Some years back I heard "Don't patronize me!" so often that I gave door holding up. Except for people with their arms full, I quit holding doors for anyone at all. I hold open doors and always say thank you when the effort is returned. Some women have gone silly in their ideas of feminism. laughs I love it when a guy opens a door for me, I always smile and say thanks. And it's funny to see the surprised look on some of their faces, they're probably used to psycho chicks yelling at them or arrogant bitches just walking past. If I were a guy and some crazy feminist chick yelled at me for opening a door for her I'd shove past her and go in first then. But I really hate how that sort of behaviour does condition men to be less chivalrous to real women. The problem with feminism isn't the "equal rights" bit, it's the social bits. And I really do feel bad for most guys living today who get all these mixed signals, some women will get upset if he pays for a first date other women will get upset if he lets her pay half when she reaches for her purse. I guess in a way it's a good thing because it does give a distinct divide between the type of men who would rather date a feminist and the type of men who would rather date a traditional woman, and really that has nothing to do with D/s at all. My best friend, who I've known since I was 13, is perfectly traditional, would never date a guy who wanted to split the bill, always has perfect hair and nails and makeup and wears skirts, and she's the most dominant (sexually) woman I know. Which is why it's really funny that so many feminists on this thread have equated tradition with submissive, they really should meet my friend Edith. Traditionalist when it comes to dating, but she won't do anything for a man except be beautiful. Her life is her own and she always has at least 3 or 4 guys strung along who will take her out if she wants to go out. If she knew what a "cuckolding fetish" was I bet she'd have one LOL. Traditionally women had a lot more power in a relationship than they do now. Traditionally, women said no to casual sex. That gave them power. Traditionally men had to go out of their way to impress a woman on a date. That gave her power. Being the type of woman that men want to make happy is infinitely more powerful than being a nagging harpy and that's what so many women are reduced to these days. It's really sad when I see female characters like that on TV, my brother used to watch Malcolm in the Middle and I swear I wanted that woman to die a horrible death just from her awful voice. It's funny though. I make my eyes all big and say "will you please..." and women like that woman on TV make their voice all shrill and shriek "damn it I told you..." and I get what I want and they don't...and then they think they have more power than I do? Bloody ridiculous.

Louve00 -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 5:57:51 AM)
I think what we keep witnessing in this thread is that extreme feminism...radical feminism...is the real creepy thing here. They've twisted equality to "over"equality in their warped way. In the name of feminism they will ridicule cheerleaders, who choose (of their own volition) to be cheerleaders. They decide that because a woman has no use for feminism, and does not want one advocating for her, that she is a mooney, an imbecile...moronic. As has been pointed out by some men on this thread time and time again (and no doubt dismissed by feminists), these "feminists" will deny people...all people...the right to free choice, without insult, unless their choice is pro-feminism. If you ask me, that is a dangerous situation indeed. Dangerous because instead of letting a person choose and speak freely on how they wish to handle, run, deal with, their life...they are insulted and berated...all in the name of feminism??? LOL. Umm...do we really think this is right? Its really OK if you don't want to be submissive to a man. Its OK if you don't want to be a cheerleader. Its even OK for you to think a professional ball player isn't really earning his money. But its not OK that you insist it keeps you oppressed. And its not OK to berate the people who are for it and the people who do persue those things in life. How quick a feminist is to forget about the choices she was not too far back denied completely, else she wouldn't be so quick to judge and persecute the choices people make now, without a sneer, jeer, or other snide comment to the opposite. What that does is speak volumes about the individual ranting it. Not necessarily the movement (or achievment) itself.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 7:39:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: SnowRanger Some years back I heard "Don't patronize me!" so often that I gave door holding up. Except for people with their arms full, I quit holding doors for anyone at all. I hold open doors and always say thank you when the effort is returned. Some women have gone silly in their ideas of feminism. laughs I love it when a guy opens a door for me, I always smile and say thanks. And it's funny to see the surprised look on some of their faces, they're probably used to psycho chicks yelling at them or arrogant bitches just walking past. If I were a guy and some crazy feminist chick yelled at me for opening a door for her I'd shove past her and go in first then. But I really hate how that sort of behaviour does condition men to be less chivalrous to real women. The door holding thing fascinates me. I frequently see guys on the internet bitching about how some woman (usually years ago) was rude to them when they held a door for her. But I rarely see women on the internet complaining about men holding doors for them. And I read feminist blogs. On the few occasions I have read women complaining, they were complaining about the guy leering at them or displaying a "polly wanna cracker" attitude like he's performing some noble act and is deserving of a shower of praise. That's the objectionable dynamic. It's not the holding of the door. Perhaps it's just my midwestern city (I doubt it) but holding doors for people is a common courtesy. It has little to do with gender or age, and more to do with proximity of the other to the door. It doesn't necessarily involve standing there like a doorman, it's usually a simple matter of going through the door then hesitating there holding it open so it doesn't swing into someone's face behind you. More courteous people will stand there a little longer to hold the door for someone who is perhaps 2 seconds behind them. (More than 2 seconds behind can be too much of a good thing, unless the person has burdens, since the other will feel rushed). This is a simple common courtesy that people in my community extend to each other every day without much thought. Failure to observe this standard would stick out as anti-social. I have never witnessed a woman chastise a man for holding a door for her. I have witnessed both women and men snidely say "you're welcome" after they held a door and the other person didn't acknowledge it. That's uncalled for. I don't support door holding as chivalry, I support it as social lubrication. Extending courtesy and kindness to strangers makes the world a better place. I spent many years in customer service and I strongly believe that people underestimate the importance of being courteous to strangers in terms of their personal mood and the general atmosphere. Perhaps I should buy one of those "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirts to wear every day, so that when I smile and say "thank you" to someone holding a door for me feminists will get proper credit.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 7:55:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 I think what we keep witnessing in this thread is that extreme feminism...radical feminism...is the real creepy thing here. I don't think what you've written accurately reflects what has been expressed in this thread. Respecting someone's right to free speech is not the same thing as respecting the content of their speech. Duh. And most of the criticism in this thread has been directed at people's ideas, not their actions. I don't think any feminist on this thread has insulted child-rearing, or the choice to be a submissive. The battleground is cultural expectations. I want full-time work as a parent to be respected, not mandated. I want Elisabella to be free to set up her stay at home life observing traditional gender norms, I just don't want society to applaud that as the best way to live. Mostly, I think you are reacting to phantom arguments that haven't been made.

SaharahEve -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 8:07:09 AM)
I'll open the door to let Women, Women with children, men with children, or old men in before me. I'll hold it open for a few seconds for a man too. You can tell they appreciate it. Most anyway. Every act of kindness creates a dominos effect and engenders the same. Usually. So why not just do it? I know the "polly wanna cracker" types you mention. Men who hold the door begrudgingly shouldn't hold the door at all; I think it tightens their knots even tighter. Though maybe with enough signs of appreciation from those their holding the door for, their bitter attitude might fade. Always a possibility. They have to be open-minded enough to know, however, that a few bad seeds doesn't necessarily mean it's an end all for all.

rentegenet -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 8:18:26 AM)
Elisabella, Just a brilliant, succinct response! Well done! I've learned to sort it out over the years. I always open the door, say 'thank you' when it's opened for me, and I don't take umbrage at the angry person quietly (or not so quietly) labelling me as sexist; she carries her demons through the door with her, and must grapple with them when they call her....

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 8:30:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 I think what we keep witnessing in this thread is that extreme feminism...radical feminism...is the real creepy thing here. I don't think what you've written accurately reflects what has been expressed in this thread. Respecting someone's right to free speech is not the same thing as respecting the content of their speech. Duh. And most of the criticism in this thread has been directed at people's ideas, not their actions. I don't think any feminist on this thread has insulted child-rearing, or the choice to be a submissive. The battleground is cultural expectations. I want full-time work as a parent to be respected, not mandated. I want Elisabella to be free to set up her stay at home life observing traditional gender norms, I just don't want society to applaud that as the best way to live. Mostly, I think you are reacting to phantom arguments that haven't been made. Do you need specific quotes?

Louve00 -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 8:32:00 AM)
Lucienne, I do get (or get the impression through your posts), you truly do agree with free speech and the right of a woman to choose. But remarks like.... You and female submissives like you are every bit as frightening and disgusting in your way as a Moony who tries to kidnap people at the airport to be brainwashed to serve the Reverend. ...are demeaning and really, bears no credence. A female submissive is not a recruiting agent for a dom. She is surely not a Mooney trying to kidnap anyone to anywhere for the sake of her cause, because her cause is usually just for one man...or for the cause of serving one. There is nothing ghostly or phantom-like about that. (not to mention, the above italics come frighteningly close or hits the nail right on the head with an insult to submissives) No, I'm sorry, the rest of us are never going to magically realize how "dangerous" and "wrong" it is for us to have some OPTION as to whether we spend a life in service to men. ...again, the word OPTION is just that...an option. Yet the way it was stated was almost contentious. If you don't like the option, than by all means, opt out of it. I certainly choose to opt out of it, but I am not about to jump up at attention everytime something wrong happens to a person who has decided to take the option. I don't happen to make the crux of feminism about submission and domination. I can see how some would think it a fitting parallel, but I think there is much more to feminism than whether one chooses to be submissive to a man or not. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I have no issue with people who choose to submit to men in their personal lives. But I am not going to be forced to live in a world modeled on their bedrooms. And that's non-negotiable. No amount of unblinking pie-eyed cultists with frozen rictus smiles of "joy" on their faces are going to change my mind. I don't see where the choice of one forces the outcome for all. To say one has no issues with people who choose to live one way, but refuses to be forced to live that way (to me) is someone else seeing a phantom argument. No one is telling anyone they should drop their beliefs, and start living the life of a submissive. To think that was the intent, to my belief, was just plain ole paranoia...or perhaps taking the opportunity to berate? (I'll leave that up to the reader). I don't want society to applaud a certain norm or standard for any female or male. I would hope, instead, society would applaud success. And success comes in all forms. Success means different things to different people. That is what I'm reacting to.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 9:29:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 I don't see where the choice of one forces the outcome for all. To say one has no issues with people who choose to live one way, but refuses to be forced* to live that way (to me) is someone else seeing a phantom argument.* No one is telling anyone they should drop their beliefs, and start living the life of a submissive. To think that was the intent, to my belief, was just plain ole paranoia...or perhaps taking the opportunity to berate? (I'll leave that up to the reader). I don't want society to applaud a certain norm or standard for any female or male. I would hope, instead, society would applaud success. And success comes in all forms. Success means different things to different people. That is what I'm reacting to. When someone advocates society (not just individuals) honoring traditional gender roles and division of labor, they are advocating a society that creates cultural pressure to conform to those roles and that division. We're a long way from anyone being forced to do anything. But cultural expectation creates pressure. And that pressure is real, not a phantom. I don't think it's paranoid to think patriarchal norms are anti-feminist. I don't get the impression that Elisabella is a bad person, but what she is advocating for culturally is contrary to what feminists advocate. At the cultural level, we can't reconcile these two positions with "everyone gets a choice," because her position is seen as limiting the choices individuals can make. She talked about laughing at a man who would choose to stay home and raise the kids (the traditional female role). I don't want to live in a society where her attitude is common. This conflict, at the cultural level, is real and can't be smoothed over with "choice" language. Some of the more extreme rhetoric from feminists in this thread struck me as impatient and/or frustrated more than strident. Feminism is big and complicated and its evolved over time. And yet here we are, with people talking about mean bitches who don't appreciate you holding the door for them. That conversation is so Archie Bunker, it's unreal. It's like.... do we really need to go through this again? Sometimes people get impatient and cut to the chase, a chase that is informed by more background than is apparent in the thread. Feminists are people, too. :) ETA: I agree with your last paragraph.

Louve00 -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 10:14:01 AM)
Now, we get into a bit of something that can be discussed. (thanks! :) I do agree with you that society will advocate traditional gender roles. That is just the way life is. We, as humans, looks to define everything. And since we, as humans, are all different, those "ways" will vary as much as the individual themself. In my way of viewing things, the traditional role of the female...to stay home, manage the household, and not have a voice outside of just about anything else...(to me) is what has to be changed. But to focus and stay focused on the women who do choose to keep those roles are a weak excuse for exercising your right (a female's right) to do otherwise. We have obtained some rights. Hell, Hillary almost broke that glass ceiling, as it was put. While still, some women do choose to live an utterly domesticated life. Hillary didn't let it stop her. Other women won't let it stop them either...and one day there will be a woman president. :) I don't get the impression that Elisabella is a bad person either. Or estah, or tazzy, for that matter. I respect them, for their ideas, their intelligence, and even their views, whether I 100% agree with them or not. I especially do not agree with the notion of laughing at a stay at home dad, given the financial situation of today. More and more men are losing their jobs. More and more women are being kept at their jobs because they are cheaper to keep. An ironic twist, when you think about it. Yet, those men staying at home, who can't find work, while their female partners can...and can keep the family unit sustained...is just silly to laugh at. At all. And nothing to be made fun of, either. I do realize some feminists may get frustrated or impatient...and feel like their efforts are nullified when they see a female acting on things they are completely against. I get annoyed as hell when a right wing nut says something so nutty, even a squirrel wouldn't touch it. That doesn't give me license to act irrational, start slinging insults, or act in a way that goes directly against my cause. Sometimes you just have to accept that things are not exactly the way we'd like them to be. It doesn't mean we have to throw in the towel and join in. Just understand the difference...and keep standing up for your cause.

MostlySubMale -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 10:19:01 AM)
"Lucienne, as best as I can tell, MostlySubMale's post translates to: "I'm a bad, bad boy for daring to express any problem with feminism. Won't someone cyber-humiliate me for it so I can wank off?" I very much wish you were right and it was really that simple.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 10:55:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl lol... your right. being submissive towards a male (or female for some i suppose) is a bucketload of fun. i enjoy being at his feet, catering to his needs, delighting in the sight, smell and taste of him. Thats within the home. Outside of it, i enjoy being his woman, someone he holds hands with, opens doors for, treats with deference and public respect. How that brings you or any other woman back to the dark ages, i have no clue. It doesn't hon. Being submissive to the person you love is a beautiful thing, and the ability to choose this life and live happily within it is crucial to any legitimate definition of the word "freedom". On the other hand, being forced to be submissive to complete and total fucking strangers, just because they are men and you are a woman, is NOT a beautiful thing. It is an ugly, stupid, preposterous thing. And being able to choose NOT to live this way, and to demand equal treatment and equal rights in public, is ALSO crucial to any legitimate definition of the word "freedom". The idea that because I am a feminist, I am rude to men who open doors for me or show me courtesy in public is just yet another retarded stereotype which has zero basis in fact. I always say thank you when a man opens a door for me, and I have greatly appreciated the times when friends or acquaintances have offered to walk me home through darkened streets where women were frequently attacked, etc.. I appreciate it and say thank you when women open the door for me as well, of course, and I would appreciate a walk home from a well-trained female martial artist as well. shrug I don't think you have to be male to be courteous or gallant. Part of being a feminist I reckon.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 11:02:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl lol... your right. being submissive towards a male (or female for some i suppose) is a bucketload of fun. i enjoy being at his feet, catering to his needs, delighting in the sight, smell and taste of him. Thats within the home. Outside of it, i enjoy being his woman, someone he holds hands with, opens doors for, treats with deference and public respect. How that brings you or any other woman back to the dark ages, i have no clue. It doesn't hon. Being submissive to the person you love is a beautiful thing, and the ability to choose this life and live happily within it is crucial to any legitimate definition of the word "freedom". On the other hand, being forced to be submissive to complete and total fucking strangers, just because they are men and you are a woman, is NOT a beautiful thing. It is an ugly, stupid, preposterous thing. And being able to choose NOT to live this way, and to demand equal treatment and equal rights in public, is ALSO crucial to any legitimate definition of the word "freedom". The idea that because I am a feminist, I am rude to men who open doors for me or show me courtesy in public is just yet another retarded stereotype which has zero basis in fact. I always say thank you when a man opens a door for me, and I have greatly appreciated the times when friends or acquaintances have offered to walk me home through darkened streets where women were frequently attacked, etc.. I appreciate it and say thank you when women open the door for me as well, of course, and I would appreciate a walk home from a well-trained female martial artist as well. shrug I don't think you have to be male to be courteous or gallant. Part of being a feminist I reckon. Ah this I understand and as it turns out we are in complete agreement. Thank you so much for clarifying your viewpoint Shakti.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 11:40:07 AM)
No problem. There are a lot of other "feminist" stereotypes I keep hearing which seem to have no basis in fact. For example, the idea that because you're a feminist, you don't believe that women should stay home and raise their children (personally, I did it for several years when my kids were younger). Or that because you're a feminist, you believe that men should have no rights (personally, I believe that paternal rights go hand in hand with paternal responsibility--a child's true "father" is not the sperm donor, it's the man who sacrifices time and resources to make the child's life better). Or that because you're a feminist, you don't believe that women should ever submit to men--even if they love it. I don't think women should be beaten by abusers--and I can tell the difference between "beaten by an abuser" and "playing with Daddy". Just because you're a feminist doesn't mean that you're stupid or ignorant about the submissive side of BDSM, or the joy it brings to people's lives. But as many submissive women can tell you, there's a big difference between being humiliated by the man who knows you and loves you best, and being talked down to or harassed by some repulsive stranger who thinks he's entitled to treat you like an inferior being because he has a dick and you don't.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/1/2009 11:43:06 AM)
Nor do i find fault with anything you have stated. I think in the heat of the discussion, things were spoken with much passion, but perhaps little thought, of how others may take things. Of course you should always say thank you when common curtesies are shown, regardless if you are male or female. Im just as likely to hold a door open for a man as well. And it really gripes me to watch as 20 young, healthy males sit on bus seats while an elderly man or woman has to stand (they will get my seat every time) But, until we, as women, unite and agree that our lives are our decisions, to live them as we best see fit, regardless of what some stereotype dictates, we will never achieve that status. Nothing would make me happier than to serve a man from my knees at a restaurant. Rarely does it happen because we both have to be cognizant of how it may look to others there, especially little ones. I made my choice to live my life as a submissive. You made yours to live as a Dominant. We should applaud each others abilities and desires, not rip them apart. I could go on and on about the feminist movement, but that isnt for now. Instead of bickering and arguing, we should be taking strides forward, together, to make the changes needed that enable our daughters to live in the world we have, so far, only dreamed about.

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