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RE: Feminism - 11/4/2009 9:48:21 PM   
aidan


Posts: 904
Joined: 5/28/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

I'm sorry, which viewpoint of mine have I tried to enact into law?


You run an anti-feminist website. Blogging is political action in the modern world. This is not "irrelevant snark". You are actively working to rescind women's rights and obstruct their attempts to achieve equality.

You are an evil being.



Which legal rights am I actively working to rescind? Please either specifically quote me on this thread or stop spewing blatant lies.

I've said at least three times in this thread I don't have a problem with the legal aspects of feminism. Are you illiterate or do you just have comprehension problems?

You're rude, you're incoherent, incongruent, and a hypocrite. You say you respect a woman's choice to be submissive yet you only respect that choice in a very narrow context that you approve of. You're a fascist and the only reason you compare other people to nazis is because you assume everyone else is as anti-choice as you are.

quote:


That would be the difference between me and, say, an anti-feminist troll who freely admits that she offends other people deliberately at every opportunity, and works daily to make the world a stupider, more unjust, more racist and sexist place.

Not that I'm pointing any fingers.



How dare you call me a troll. You're spewing random, blind accusations, you can't even bother attempting to find a quote that would back you up because you know there isn't one. Where have I freely admitted I offend other people deliberately at every opportunity?

You know what? Whatever hurt you so bad to make you like this...I'm glad. I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. You're a cruel, lying, miserable wretch of a woman who has thus far taken every opportunity to direct the conversation away from the ideas and toward personal attacks.

Tell me, how does it feel to be a liar? How does it feel to have an argument so flimsy that the only way you can support it is by making stuff up?

I shouldn't have even replied to your reply to my post directed at Loki, but that post seemed innocuous enough. It actually had substance. Silly me for thinking we could actually have a conversation. Two posts later, same old bullshit from Shakti - someone disagrees with me so I'll insult them, the Nazi insult didn't go over so well so I'll call her a racist this time. Well isn't that just brilliant. Bravo, Shakti, that shows some real intellectual calibre.

I've tried again and again to respond to your posts on-topic, but again and again you slip little digs in there against me as a person, and I'm done with it. I'm neither a nazi nor a racist, I'm a woman who has made a free choice to disagree with your worldview, and again and again you stick your head in the sand and come up with the most random, off the wall theories as to why I do so. I can't *really* be an anti-feminist, I'm just brainwashed by society. I can't *really* be an anti-feminist, I'm an evil racist nazi. I can't *really* think that your brand of feminism is destructive for both women and men, of course not...I have to be a radical fundamentalist who wants to take away the right for women to vote.

That's the only way it makes sense to you, isn't it? The only women who don't agree with you are somehow defective. No woman would choose to be a cheerleader if she had a *real* choice, so in your ideal world you'll take that choice away because in your ideal world cheerleading wouldn't exist. Go free choice! Go you! You're such a liberator, you really want to save people from their own choices.

If you want to talk about the ideas, I'll be happy to. If you keep up these dishonest accusations forget it, I won't bother debating with someone who doesn't believe in their own position enough to stick to it without resorting to ad hominem attacks.


Oh for christ's sakes...

Look, you have said repeatedly in this thread that you oppose the social aspects of feminism, most of which would be codified into law because that's how social engineering works in a complex civilization. So there, there's your explanation for why she, and I, say that you're working to rescind rights and stand in the way of progress.

As for Shakti being a "fascist" or "anti-choice," lady, you're full of shit and blatantly ignoring content. It is not about ending cheerleading - though if it did end, you wouldn't see me or her shed a tear most likely. Neither here nor there. It's about it being set up, by our culture, as a sexualy exploitative and undermining practice that is publically supported with state-appropriated funds. If it wasn't set up as a ritualistic proxy of male dominance, I really don't think she'd give much a shit. I know I wouldn't. But as it is, yeah, it's bullshit and I don't feel like it should be supported by a public institution.

Yes, you are a troll. You're a female submissive who enjoys male dominants, coming into a thread about a socio-poltical movement you despise, on a forum for a sexual orientation you don't truck with, having the expressed purpose of saying things to piss people off. That is trolling.

And Loki, let me assure you that you say or could say would get under her skin. If you don't like "soulless misogynist monster" though, there's plenty of other accurate descriptions. How about pox on the species? Barbarous troglodytic throwback? There's quite a list.


_____________________________

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RE: Feminism - 11/4/2009 10:00:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

You're a female submissive who enjoys male dominants


I happen to enjoy male dominants...

quote:

coming into a thread about a socio-poltical movement you despise


I was a child of the movement,,, and.. frankly... i feel it went too far.

quote:

on a forum for a sexual orientation you don't truck with


It is an open forum. Female dominantion is not my cup of tea. That does not mean i cannot speak intelligently on a subject brought up under that heading.

quote:

having the expressed purpose of saying things to piss people off


No one can piss you off with words.. You can allow yourself to be pissed off by words. Expressing a viewpoint may lead to others not understanding, either by confusion or by choice.

I, personally, see both sides attacking. ShaktiSama is definitely not an innocent here. But, i do believe both women get caught up in the passion of their beliefs.

_____________________________

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RE: Feminism - 11/4/2009 10:00:25 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aidan


Oh for christ's sakes...

Look, you have said repeatedly in this thread that you oppose the social aspects of feminism, most of which would be codified into law because that's how social engineering works in a complex civilization. So there, there's your explanation for why she, and I, say that you're working to rescind rights and stand in the way of progress.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the only way for society to work was to have it legally enforced.

Maybe I'll pass a law requiring people to get married at a certain age. Or to have X number of children. After all nobody'll do it if it's not law, right?

Give me a break.

quote:

As for Shakti being a "fascist" or "anti-choice," lady, you're full of shit and blatantly ignoring content. It is not about ending cheerleading - though if it did end, you wouldn't see me or her shed a tear most likely. Neither here nor there. It's about it being set up, by our culture, as a sexualy exploitative and undermining practice that is publically supported with state-appropriated funds. If it wasn't set up as a ritualistic proxy of male dominance, I really don't think she'd give much a shit. I know I wouldn't. But as it is, yeah, it's bullshit and I don't feel like it should be supported by a public institution.


She's anti choice because she refuses to acknowledge that anyone can make a free choice unless it's the choice she herself would make.

quote:

Yes, you are a troll. You're a female submissive who enjoys male dominants, coming into a thread about a socio-poltical movement you despise, on a forum for a sexual orientation you don't truck with, having the expressed purpose of saying things to piss people off. That is trolling.


The expressed purpose of saying things to piss people off?

Well shit, why didn't I just post the link to my blog if I'm only here to piss people off.

I'm saying things I genuinely believe, and I really don't care if they piss you off or not.

Now if this thread were entitled "A thread for feminists to get together and talk about why feminism is good" then yeah I'd have no place here. It's called Feminism. That opens it up to both pro- and con- views.

And what does my sexual orientation have to do with anything? First off, check my profile, I'm a switch not a straight up sub. This forum is called "Ask a Mistress' and as I not only used to be a pro-domme but am planning on co-owning a slave with my fiance once we get settled into our marriage, I'd say I have more right to be here than you do. Seeing as how you're not a Mistress.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 11/4/2009 10:22:58 PM >

(in reply to aidan)
Profile   Post #: 543
RE: Feminism - 11/4/2009 10:22:27 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		And you know, just once, I'd like for someone to reply to me by saying "Really? You don't think a feminist world is a good idea? What are your problems with it and what do you think a better solution would be?"

But no. Nobody can bother asking. It's all "you think this, you think that, I know you think this even though you never said it and you might have said the complete opposite a few times but I KNOW YOU THINK THIS BECAUSE I CAN READ YOUR MIND!!! What do you mean I'm wrong? I can't be wrong. I CAN READ MINDS!!!!"

I'd also like for people to stop equating antifeminism with female slavery, or even worse, female BDSM submission. That's so utterly ridiculous I can't even wrap my mind around it.

I'm not anti feminist because I think women shouldn't have rights. I'm antifeminist because I think feminism, in its current incarnation, is making the world a worse place for women to live in.

I'm antifeminist because I love women. Because I love being a woman. Because I want to live in a world that genuinely appreciates women.

And I'm really sick of the slander coming from the other side. Tell me, if feminism was so good for women, why are there anti-feminist women? Do you think there were black slaves in the 1800's saying "Abolitionists? No way, I love it here. Don't you dare make slavery illegal!" Of course not. So why are there women who are opposed to feminism?

Feminists would say it's because we're brainwashed idiots. That's one option. The other option is that feminists aren't infallible, that they're capable of making mistakes, and that there are women who want to fight against those mistakes.

Nobody wants to make a world that would oppress themselves. Obviously. The fact that there are antifeminist women means that feminists don't speak for all women, that in fact some women are so put off by some forms of feminism that we want to take a stand against it.

Why anyone would think I'd actively work to oppress myself and take away my own legal rights is beyond me. What's the logic there? Why would I do this?

Either I'm completely mentally incompetent, or that's not even remotely what I'm trying to do. Seeing as how most psychiatric institutions don't have wifi, it might not hurt to take a look at the second option.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 544
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 12:06:01 AM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

And you know, just once, I'd like for someone to reply to me by saying "Really? You don't think a feminist world is a good idea? What are your problems with it and what do you think a better solution would be?"


We don't ask because we don't fucking care what Daddy told you to pretend to think this week. We already know what people like you are going to say: the answer is "whatever Talking Points have been released to the Faithful via Fox News lately".

Not one of you fascist douchbags has had an original thought since Martin Luther. It's all the same blah blah blah whatever you say Daddy Dearest blah. Why in the HELL would I care how you rationalize your destructive campaigns? I'm not your therapist or your mother. I'm the woman who will cheerfully bury you.

Also, for the record? Those of us with even a vague interest in what you are REALLY like have already taken a good long look at your blog. Someone tracked you down quite easily about 30 seconds after you mentioned you had a website. The link has already made the rounds behind the scenes.

So, in case you were wondering? We ALSO don't care why you think that it's ok for fascist white politicians to call President Obama a "monkey". We don't have to rely on our prejudices and merely ASSUME that you're a hateful right-wing Uncle-Ruckus-Wannabe.

Your writing speaks quite eloquently for itself.

And honestly, watching the worst misogynist trolls on this forum pat you on your head and tell you what a good good girl you are is enough to make me throw up in my own mouth a little. So please feel free to rattle on without me from now on.

_____________________________

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-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 12:17:26 AM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I suppose it is some of that equality (privilege) in action, eh?


Coming from a Gorean, any criticism of my attitudes and actions means literally, absolutely, less than nothing.

If you disapprove of my tone, my words, and my treatment of men who agree with you, and women who proselytze for your male supremacist worldview?

I could have no greater confirmation that I am absolutely, 100%, unequivocably and inarguably correct in everything I have said.

Thank you for the encouragement. Please keep whining and crying. It makes my day.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 2:12:55 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Please keep whining and crying. It makes my day.


Funny, I believe most of us were just thinking the same thing about you.

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 11/5/2009 2:13:46 AM >

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 547
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 3:02:55 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama



We don't ask because we don't fucking care what Daddy told you to pretend to think this week. We already know what people like you are going to say: the answer is "whatever Talking Points have been released to the Faithful via Fox News lately".


I've never watched TV news in my life and I've never even heard of Talking Points so you really couldn't be further off base.

quote:

Not one of you fascist douchbags has had an original thought since Martin Luther. It's all the same blah blah blah whatever you say Daddy Dearest blah.


My father is a socialist.

I don't have a daddy complex.

quote:

Why in the HELL would I care how you rationalize your destructive campaigns? I'm not your therapist or your mother.


Well thank you for admitting that you're just here to hear yourself talk and that none of your replies to me have had anything to do with what I've actually said. I mean it was kind of obvious from the blatant lies you told, but it's still refreshing to hear you say it.

quote:

I'm the woman who will cheerfully bury you.


LOL. You accuse me of being the type of person who would propagate nazi death camps and here you threaten to bury me?

You're sick. Sick in the head.

quote:

Also, for the record? Those of us with even a vague interest in what you are REALLY like have already taken a good long look at your blog. Someone tracked you down quite easily about 30 seconds after you mentioned you had a website. The link has already made the rounds behind the scenes.

So, in case you were wondering? We ALSO don't care why you think that it's ok for fascist white politicians to call President Obama a "monkey". We don't have to rely on our prejudices and merely ASSUME that you're a hateful right-wing Uncle-Ruckus-Wannabe.


I'm really getting sick of being called right wing. I'm a registered democrat who votes independently. And you, once again, are an idiot.

BTW if you really don't care what I have to say why are you reading my blog? Or should I say, mis-reading. If you can call me "right wing" after one of my more recent entries being titled "Why I will never be a republican" you really are completely illiterate.

quote:

Your writing speaks quite eloquently for itself.


Generally, yes it does. However you seem to have the darndest time with comprehension, if I didn't loathe you I'd get you a reading primer out of sympathy.

quote:


And honestly, watching the worst misogynist trolls on this forum pat you on your head and tell you what a good good girl you are is enough to make me throw up in my own mouth a little. So please feel free to rattle on without me from now on.


You do realize the definition of misogynist is "one who hates women," right? So um...a misogynist...complimenting a woman about how great she is...well...that probably only makes sense in Shaktiland.

Peace out, hope your puke tastes less bitter than your words.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 548
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 3:32:33 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
You do realize the definition of misogynist is "one who hates women," right? So um...a misogynist...complimenting a woman about how great she is...well...that probably only makes sense in Shaktiland.


As much as I abhor saying this, she's actually kinda right about this. (Well, not the troll part.)

I'm a self-proclaimed misogynist. A misogynistic, chauvanistic, sexist asshole.

However, I'm also a living study in duality -- my own version of Harvey Dent. You see, despite my above self-described moniker, only a small handful of my friends have been guys. The rest of them have been girls. Of course they are girls like you, who see many things the same way I do. Hell, I would almost call some of my female friends misogynistic. It certainly explains why they had more guy friends than girl friends.

However, despite that "one" correct thing she said, you're right about the rest of her. She's definitely a sick person.


< Message edited by Loki45 -- 11/5/2009 3:33:11 AM >

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 549
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 3:32:46 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		And this is why we have "hide" button, people. Rather than continuing a pointless argument where both sides are refusing to understand the other - let's just move on, shall we?

For the record, my stand on feminism is this - people have the right to choose what they want to do. Gender, orientation, color ... nothing like that should matter. My aunt happens to be of the "femi-nazi" variety that looked down on my mother for choosing to stay at home with us ... but my mom was happy with her choice, and she went back to work once we were old enough that she was comfortable with it. People should be able to choose what makes them happy. If a man wants to take leave after a birth/adoption, then he should be able to. If a woman wants to go back to work after having a baby, she should be able to. Women and men should be able to make the same amount of money for the same job - and people who are qualified should get the jobs and promotions, regardless of superficial considerations.

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RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 3:36:10 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
You do realize the definition of misogynist is "one who hates women," right? So um...a misogynist...complimenting a woman about how great she is...well...that probably only makes sense in Shaktiland.


As much as I abhor saying this, she's actually kinda right about this. (Well, not the troll part.)

I'm a self-proclaimed misogynist. A misogynistic, chauvanistic, sexist asshole.

However, I'm also a living study in duality -- my own version of Harvey Dent. You see, despite my above self-described moniker, only a small handful of my friends have been guys. The rest of them have been girls. Of course they are girls like you, who see many things the same way I do. Hell, I would almost call some of my female friends misogynistic. It certainly explains why they had more guy friends than girl friends.

However, despite that "one" correct thing she said, you're right about the rest of her. She's definitely a sick person.



Well I really don't know what to say about this.

I love being a woman. I wouldn't trade it for money or power or anything else.

It sucks you can't appreciate us for the amazing creatures we are.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 551
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 3:43:34 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Well I really don't know what to say about this.

I love being a woman. I wouldn't trade it for money or power or anything else.

It sucks you can't appreciate us for the amazing creatures we are.


Don't misunderstand, most of my friends have been women. Apparently in that capacity and with the right ones, I'm perfectly fine with my appreciating skills.

The 'other' interaction, however is not so fortunate. I wasn't born the way I am, I was made.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 552
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 4:51:44 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I suppose it is some of that equality (privilege) in action, eh?


Coming from a Gorean, any criticism of my attitudes and actions means literally, absolutely, less than nothing.


Multiple times it has been shown that your words do not seem to match what you say. If it means less than nothing, then why respond. It must have hit a nerve somewhere. You have no clue what my beliefs are, unless you are willing to read through some of my posts, instead you are just hurling things out against an opposing view, rather than use reason and logic.

quote:


If you disapprove of my tone, my words, and my treatment of men who agree with you, and women who proselytze for your male supremacist worldview?


It has nothing to do with your tone, it has to do with you being allowed to make personal attacks, and mod 11 doing nothing to you. You are being allowed to enjoy one of your feminist privileges, a double standard created because of gender. Also, I do not have a Male supremacist worldview, and I dare you to show otherwise. Again you are just hurling insults, rather than offer reason and logic to provide substance to your extreme views.

quote:


I could have no greater confirmation that I am absolutely, 100%, unequivocably and inarguably correct in everything I have said.

Thank you for the encouragement. Please keep whining and crying. It makes my day.


So anyone that disagrees with you is whining and crying? Another tactic that allows you to avoid respondes with any substance. So far, you have not shown much, except that you act like a victim, you use slave morality to cry about your oppresors, you hurl insults to deflect from putting substance behind tough questions, you do not answer some questions because you know those answers will show you for what you really are, and that somewhere along the way you or someone close to you has been deeply hurt by some things that causes you to be irrational in your responses to some questions.

So how is it an erotic photographer does not perpetuate the sexual explotation that you keep squawking about?

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 11/5/2009 5:08:33 AM >

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RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 4:56:21 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Well I really don't know what to say about this.

I love being a woman. I wouldn't trade it for money or power or anything else.

It sucks you can't appreciate us for the amazing creatures we are.


Don't misunderstand, most of my friends have been women. Apparently in that capacity and with the right ones, I'm perfectly fine with my appreciating skills.

The 'other' interaction, however is not so fortunate. I wasn't born the way I am, I was made.



I dunno, not to take away from your self identified misogyny but it seems to me if you can be friends with women you don't really hate us.

Relationships are a whole nother story though.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 554
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 5:04:46 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I dunno, not to take away from your self identified misogyny but it seems to me if you can be friends with women you don't really hate us.

Relationships are a whole nother story though.


Therein lies the duality. I usually tend to phrase it as "I hate 'chicks' (and of course rabid feminists) but I don't really mind the down-to-earth "guys' girls."


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 555
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 5:42:07 AM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
Therein lies the duality. I usually tend to phrase it as "I hate 'chicks' (and of course rabid feminists) but I don't really mind the down-to-earth "guys' girls."


So . . . do you see Elisabella as a 'down-to-earth 'guys' girl', then? 

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Profile   Post #: 556
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 7:02:20 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		sounds to me like she is aching to find a man strong enough to slam her to her knees and keep her there, Master Orion. despite her denials, i see a slave belly in there, waiting to burn for the right man.

alas, silly Female that she is, she doesnt see the freedom in chains and spends so much time denying what she is instead of seeking out the truths within herself.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 557
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 7:31:02 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I dunno Tazzy..........in reading this thread I just see a whole lotta fucked up from a dozen different angles.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 8:11:49 AM   
Lucienne


Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Therein lies the duality. I usually tend to phrase it as "I hate 'chicks' (and of course rabid feminists) but I don't really mind the down-to-earth "guys' girls."



I'm fairly described as a down-to-earth "guys' girl" and a feminist. I guess I would confuse you.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 559
RE: Feminism - 11/5/2009 8:15:35 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		tazzygirl, I assume you're being sarcastic about the "slave belly" bit.

ShaktiSama, the boys also need parental permission slips to play football or baseball or run track. Girls also have to have them to play basketball or swim or whatever. Do you feel they also don't have the ability to willingly participate in those other sports? I think that threatening to kill/bury people is really out of line. :( I haven't heard of a single case of a cheerleader being killed and thrown in a dumpster, so I don't get where that is coming from. Most cheerleaders, whether children or adults, are from middle-class families, and there would be outrage and the whole community stirred up if they went missing.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 560
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