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Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 4:10:00 PM   
VeeTee


Posts: 45
Joined: 7/25/2009
Status: offline 		Hello! i know that skillful Doms read their subs and interpret their sub's needs and use this information for subtle and not so subtle manipulation that strengthens the relationship. Heck, most vanilla relationships count on that as well! What i am wondering is how, as a sub, do you recognize the difference between manipulation being utilized to make the dynamic stronger between the Dom and sub and manipulation being used to deceive? As a wise person on this board told me once, the lifestyle is rife with deceit...i'm sure it probably has more to do with experience and learning to read between the lines, but wondering what subs think about this as a whole and specifically, any tips. Any Masters out there, i'd love Your thoughts, too. Thanks!
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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 5:49:13 PM   
bluefireeyez


Posts: 119
Joined: 12/15/2008
Status: offline 		To be honest, i'm not sure my thoughts are going to come out on this board quite right so please keep that in mind.

i think manipulation to make the relationship better can be used when the sub is curious but uncertain or the Dom doesn't want to directly steer the person a certain way but wants the sub to come to the "inner truth" to borrow off of some of the philosophers. Another time i see it is when the Dom is shaping the sub to try an activity he/she might not otherwise.

When anyone manipulates to decieve it is a lot harder to see. However, i believe if they skirt around an issue everytime it is brought up or they don't allow you to ask certain questions then they are clearly trying to decieve.

(in reply to VeeTee)
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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 5:52:39 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		A Dom/me has the responsibility to mold and change their sub.  If you want to call it manipulation, so be it.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 6:11:01 PM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VeeTee

What i am wondering is how, as a sub, do you recognize the difference between manipulation being utilized to make the dynamic stronger between the Dom and sub and manipulation being used to deceive? As a wise person on this board told me once, the lifestyle is rife with deceit.


"As a wise person on this board told me once, the lifestyle is rife with deceit."

I would perhaps modify that with self-deceit far more. Caveat venditor.



_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 6:52:41 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline 		Well, deceit isn't a bad thing if you don't mind being manipulated by the person in question in any way whatsoever. If someone is completely OK in your eyes, then it's Ok if they manipulate you in ways you do not understand or even trick or fool you regularly. Uh... isn't it?

I don't suppose that's what you are looking for in asking this. :/ Hmm... let me try again.

It's hard for someone to decieve you without you knowing it, somewhere somehow. I don't mean paranoia, fear of being fooled, but the real thing, a little knowledge somewhere inside that you're being tricked. As I said above, with some people, that sort of thing might not matter. But if it does matter to you, if you don't want to be deceived, then listen to what MarcEsadrian said (well, he didn't say exactly this but this is how I interpret it): wherever you are willing to fool yourself, to believe things that aren't true because they make you feel better, that is the place where someone else can fool you too, without your noticing, because you want so badly for what they are telling you to be true. I suppose that is how most advertising works. So get to know yourself, get to know what you really really want to be true, and then be careful around those who promise it to you. Not enough to write them off, as dreams do (very occasionally) come true, but enough to examine it very carefully and lengthily.

I am lucky in that sense. I want most of all for an alien dominant (preferably with *tentacles*) to chain me to his tardis and carry me away through time and space. It's pretty easy to tell when people are faking that. They always get the interior of the tardis wrong.

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 7:07:34 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		When I want to manipulate Kim, I wave my hand in front of her face and say something like "These are not the droids you are looking for."

However, I only use my powers for good, not evil.

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 7:11:03 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal
I am lucky in that sense. I want most of all for an alien dominant (preferably with *tentacles*) to chain me to his tardis and carry me away through time and space. It's pretty easy to tell when people are faking that. They always get the interior of the tardis wrong.


Hey, if he's got a spare K9 in the tardis, can I have it? Please?

OP I can't tell if you're talking about inside an existing relationship or if you're being manipulated by someone new? If it's someone I'm not in a relationship with, then he has no right to manipulate me, because that's being dishonest. Now in a healthy relationship, I still prefer not to be manipulated. He can urge me, push me, present things in a light I haven't seen them in, but he has to bring me to the point where I'm going to feel better and not worse, about doing whatever activity he has in mind.

But honestly, I'm a rational human being. I still don't want to have to be deceived and manipulated. Talk to me, try honest communication and answer my questions. I may well be willing to do it if you can solve the problem I'm having with it. But if you don't know what the problem is because you can't be arsed to talk to me, then sure as shooting you won't solve it and if you somehow force me to do whatever, I will feel worse about it, and you, afterwards.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 10/14/2009 7:16:27 PM >

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 7:28:43 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		I manipulate Carol shamelessly although that particular word contains a lot of negative connotations. A more appropriate phrase would be, "I motivate Carol constantly."

Carol could not stop me from doing so nor could she tell if I was doing it to her detriment until, of course, things were totally awful. That is why I'm the dominant and she's the submissive. The problem here is that once the gate into her mind is open, then it's open. Once she readily allows me to shape her thoughts, emotions and viewpoints how can she ever get out of that trap until the accumulated hurts I do break her entirely?

In Carol's case, what makes that all somehow even remotely safe is that she knows that I love her like she knows the sun will come up tomorrow -- no guesswork involved.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 7:36:43 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

When I want to manipulate Kim, I wave my hand in front of her face and say something like "These are not the droids you are looking for."

However, I only use my powers for good, not evil.


Ah, yes....I'll never forget the day Frodo offered me the One Ring....

And it's fortunate that subs/slaves never try to manipulate their Doms.....



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/14/2009 7:37:17 PM >

(in reply to AnimusRex)
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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 7:55:35 PM   
DrkJourney


Posts: 1917
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

When I want to manipulate Kim, I wave my hand in front of her face and say something like "These are not the droids you are looking for."

However, I only use my powers for good, not evil.


oh well, at least I only spit water this time...lol

_____________________________

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 7:57:43 PM   
SubOnlyForHim


Posts: 787
Joined: 8/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

And it's fortunate that subs/slaves never try to manipulate their Doms.....
quote:






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*committed*

~The more answers i get, the more questions i have.~







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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 8:05:42 PM   
VeeTee


Posts: 45
Joined: 7/25/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks Everyone! i was not referring to anything specific with me, but the thought came up and i read through some other posts on manipulation. i don't necessarily put a negative spin on the actual word or action of manipulation.... It is the motivation behind that particular act of manipulation that i was curious about. Yes, for good and not evil! Thanks again - i appreciate the viewpoints.

(in reply to SubOnlyForHim)
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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 8:05:48 PM   
DrkJourney


Posts: 1917
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VeeTee

Hello! i know that skillful Doms read their subs and interpret their sub's needs and use this information for subtle and not so subtle manipulation that strengthens the relationship. Heck, most vanilla relationships count on that as well! What i am wondering is how, as a sub, do you recognize the difference between manipulation being utilized to make the dynamic stronger between the Dom and sub and manipulation being used to deceive? As a wise person on this board told me once, the lifestyle is rife with deceit...i'm sure it probably has more to do with experience and learning to read between the lines, but wondering what subs think about this as a whole and specifically, any tips. Any Masters out there, i'd love Your thoughts, too. Thanks!


I'm not sure I would call it manipulation, maybe it is, but certainly not to use it for deceit.  I'd call it taking the time to learn about my slave and use the knowledge to not only get what I need, but to learn about him enough to know what keeps him interested and motivated.  You can scream I'm Domme and it's my way or the highway all you want, but if slave is not happy you'll be less a slave.

_____________________________

...Look into my eyes and I'll own you....



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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 8:18:10 PM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

It's hard for someone to decieve you without you knowing it, somewhere somehow. I don't mean paranoia, fear of being fooled, but the real thing, a little knowledge somewhere inside that you're being tricked. As I said above, with some people, that sort of thing might not matter. But if it does matter to you, if you don't want to be deceived, then listen to what MarcEsadrian said (well, he didn't say exactly this but this is how I interpret it): wherever you are willing to fool yourself, to believe things that aren't true because they make you feel better, that is the place where someone else can fool you too, without your noticing, because you want so badly for what they are telling you to be true. I suppose that is how most advertising works. So get to know yourself, get to know what you really really want to be true, and then be careful around those who promise it to you. Not enough to write them off, as dreams do (very occasionally) come true, but enough to examine it very carefully and lengthily.

What she said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And it's fortunate that subs/slaves never try to manipulate their Doms.....

hahahahaha  lmao

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 8:26:46 PM   
alittleevil


Posts: 235
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VeeTee

Hello! i know that skillful Doms read their subs and interpret their sub's needs and use this information for subtle and not so subtle manipulation that strengthens the relationship. Heck, most vanilla relationships count on that as well! What i am wondering is how, as a sub, do you recognize the difference between manipulation being utilized to make the dynamic stronger between the Dom and sub and manipulation being used to deceive? As a wise person on this board told me once, the lifestyle is rife with deceit...i'm sure it probably has more to do with experience and learning to read between the lines, but wondering what subs think about this as a whole and specifically, any tips. Any Masters out there, i'd love Your thoughts, too. Thanks!


Hello,
1. to manage or influence skillfully, especially in an unfair manner: Yes, he does this all the time.  . 2. to handle, manage, or use with skill, in some process of treatment or performance: This too... 3. to adapt or change to suit one's purpose or advantage. Yes.
Hmm...i think "manipulate" is one of those words. (like...abase, defile, use, hurt) that is not necessarily a bad thing in the right context. :-)

Do you feel better, or worse, after it happens?

If you think you're being shined on, you probably are.
If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
Everybody lies...it's the people lying to themselves that are the most dangerous.
Look before you leap?

Peace,
aj











_____________________________

Throw me to the wolves because there's order in the pack (RHCP)

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 9:12:31 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VeeTee

Hello! i know that skillful Doms read their subs and interpret their sub's needs and use this information for subtle and not so subtle manipulation that strengthens the relationship.

i'm sure it probably has more to do with experience and learning to read between the lines, but wondering what subs think about this as a whole and specifically, any tips.


how can it be manipulation if i've already ceded control to this person? wouldn't that imply that he is well within his right to utilize the methods he believes are going to produce the results that he seeks and i benefit from? when i glance at the latter comment i'm left with a feeling that you're devoting energy trying to figure out and anticipate his methods or even counteract them. i don't see any benefit in doing any of it. when the brain is performing that much activity it is hard to be surrendered when you're playing survivor in the head.

one of the most important lessons you come to grasp is you cannot know and at some point you realize you will not know unless he decides to tell you. then you reach a point where knowing is no longer important and you trust the process and his methods. rather than approach it from the vain you're doing, why don't you take your concerns to him instead by stating the following:

i have noticed that when a, b, c occurs i'm apt to think the following, rather than allowing things to flow naturally. can you explain to me where i'm faltering?

allow him to clarify and instruct according to his wishes. otherwise you'll spin on the hamster's wheel and continually return to the same point none the wiser. whenever i have found myself doing this the results were disastrous. it completely messed up my thinking and created a domino effect. if you're naturally analytical this is something you'll probably have to work at.

there's also another thing. even if you were able to anticipate his methods and saw it coming so to speak, would that really alter your response or willingness to yield as expected? if you can honestly answer no to this question you may come to see that the knowledge you seek wouldn't change the outcome anyway. so put your time and attention in perfecting the kneel instead. there's always something to be surrendered. let him handle the details. good luck.

porcelaine


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His will; my fate.

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 9:23:05 PM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal
...if you don't want to be deceived, then listen to what MarcEsadrian said (well, he didn't say exactly this but this is how I interpret it): wherever you are willing to fool yourself, to believe things that aren't true because they make you feel better, that is the place where someone else can fool you too, without your noticing, because you want so badly for what they are telling you to be true. I suppose that is how most advertising works. So get to know yourself, get to know what you really really want to be true, and then be careful around those who promise it to you. Not enough to write them off, as dreams do (very occasionally) come true, but enough to examine it very carefully and lengthily.


Caring, I'd say you hit the mark very well with that interpretation, and then some. I have seen more than one woman (and man) caught up in their own self deception about their loyalties and resolve in submission. Somewhere along the line they overextend—making promises they can never really keep. In that light, sometimes it is important to note that the dominant can be victimized too, even if unintentionally, in the end.

_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

(in reply to CaringandReal)
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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/14/2009 9:46:04 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

It's hard for someone to decieve you without you knowing it, somewhere somehow. I don't mean paranoia, fear of being fooled, but the real thing, a little knowledge somewhere inside that you're being tricked.


So very true.

I had a really interesting conversation with my mother about six months ago, in which I made a comment about wondering how I'd trust a man again.  Her response to me was profound.  She said "It's not men you don't trust, it's yourself you don't trust.  You knew they were lying to you, but you chose to believe them so really you were lying to yourself."

As for manipulations by an owner (particularly those not based on honesty), many are just too easy to recognize anymore, and would result in a negative outcome...or positive, depending on how one sees it.


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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/15/2009 9:35:46 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VeeTee

What i am wondering is how, as a sub, do you recognize the difference between manipulation being utilized to make the dynamic stronger between the Dom and sub and manipulation being used to deceive?



I'd know because.....I'd know.

If I was with someone new, then I wouldn't be sure.........but I'd have a *feeling*. I'd get a niggling, nagging feeling that would alert me to pay more attention than I perhaps had. I'd be more alert, more attentive to his words and actions, blah blah. There's some kind of antenna that rumbles into action and says * Eyup, something's not quite right here*. People call it *gut-feeling*.

I'm not with someone *new*, I'm with someone that I've known for a decade and I'd know in a heartbeat if I was being manipulated to *deceive*. He manipulates me ALL the time, always has done..........I'm a content with that. It's his job.

When my children are doing it, they just don't know how I *know*. They think I have some all-seeing-radar..........but it's just experience, that's all it is. So many years of learning to read subtle clues. One day they'll know too, just as my parents did ......lol

agirl

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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/15/2009 1:50:06 PM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know if master has ever manipulated me. he may have and i am not aware, if he did he did it on the side of the good not to decive me. I have a very devoloped BS meter i usually know by a combo of body launague ,tone of voice and life experience if i am beinging decieved. they is an old saying fool me once shame on you fooll me twice shame on me.

Matt's littleone

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