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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/22/2009 1:53:19 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
In a lot of cases, but not all. There are definitely denominations which are happy to let others be wrong and go to Hell after they die, if they wish.

Actually those people tend to be sure that they worship the one true god, that they have the right answer and that all other religions are wrong.

No question, but at least a lot of them are willing to let other people be wrong, if only so that they can gloat about it on judgement day...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 401

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/22/2009 2:01:44 PM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

LOL

I dont ever recall claiming to be "christian"

If that is the case and you are not, i think there are some who might think it equally shameful that you put yourself forward as a spokesperson and defender of Christian "rights" to pray wherever they wish, and you do it in such an abominable manner that tramples their gospels of Love. Tsk, tsk. Hiding behind that weak verbal dodge does not excuse your vile tactics. Christians could probably be better served without "friends" like you.

Didn't your mama ever teach you if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all?

Too bad, tg. I think we could probably like each other in different circumstances.

vinnie

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/22/2009 2:42:29 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 402

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/22/2009 2:15:35 PM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
In a lot of cases, but not all. There are definitely denominations which are happy to let others be wrong and go to Hell after they die, if they wish.

Actually those people tend to be sure that they worship the one true god, that they have the right answer and that all other religions are wrong.

No question, but at least a lot of them are willing to let other people be wrong, if only so that they can gloat about it on judgement day...

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Some gleefully await the Rapture when the good boys and girls will ascend with healthy bodies into Paradise and then the Second Coming of Christ when the "evil-doers" will be punished.

Yep, everybody else is screwed. Even the pagan polytheists according to Paul, i have read, because they should have known there is only one god and he is the god of Israel.

vincent

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/22/2009 2:28:13 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 403

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/22/2009 3:02:49 PM

Moonhead

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Very true. I do find waiting to feel smug about it when the day of judgement arrives prefereable to wanting to kill all all of the infidels, though.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 404

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/22/2009 3:54:58 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

The problem with texts like the Gospels is that you have to know what Christ is talking about in order to understand what he is saying (and discern the corruptions that are incompatible with it).

It is known, for example, that there are two levels to Christ's teachings. This is confirmed in the canonical Gospels themselves, and also in other more recently discovered texts. With respect to the canonical Gospels, in Matthew we find...

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.... Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. ~Matthew 13:10-11,13

Now, you quoted John in your post...

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." ~John 14:6

Certainly this makes no sense literally. But I would say, it is not intended to be taken so. It is intended to be understood on a different level. It makes a world of sense if "through Me" we understand the indwelling Christ, the indwelling spirit which each of us must discover within ourselves.

Then, you can see why this too makes sense...

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ~Matthew 25:40

You observed in your post that, "some gleefully await the Rapture when the good boys and girls will ascend with healthy bodies into Paradise and then the Second Coming of Christ when the "evil-doers" will be punished."

Indeed, they do. But it can also be said that...

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: ~Matthew 13:14.

Kirata

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/22/2009 4:53:10 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 405

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/22/2009 7:06:37 PM

vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

First, thank you for writing something of substance which I can engage and perhaps learn from in exchange. That rocks!

As I take issue with you it will be not as an antagonist or combatant but as a dialogue of sorts. I can only bring to the table those things I have read on the topic and my reading is an unfinished adventure.

quote:

The problem with texts like the Gospels is that you have to know what Christ is talking about in order to understand what he is saying (and discern the corruptions that are incompatible with it).

My reply is the problem goes beyond knowing what Jesus was talking about to trying to understand what the writers were saying that Jesus was talking about. Each of the writers had their own agenda and so reinvented Jesus to suit their particular theological persuasion. We have no record of what Jesus said other than what was written as you well know many years after the Crucifixion. There was an oral tradition between the crucifixion and the writing of the books, and then the books were copied and recopied and not even named until well into the second century.

To add to the delightful confusion we are here comparing one of the Synoptic Gospels to the G of John which was written much later. To make an apples to apples comparison of the two is very difficult. Matthew, written earlier and based somewhat on Mark and somewhat similar to Luke is quite foreign to John. Matthew and Luke focus a great deal on the Ministry of Jesus, his miracles and cures, whereas John spends little on the Ministry and much on the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

In the Synoptic Gospels Jesus spoke of the end of days within the generation of his disciples. This time had already passed by the time John was written. Understand, I am synthesizing here what I read elsewhere, being only an interested layman and non-believer.

I have read that in the Synoptics Jesus was a man crucified and then resurrected. In John the Christ existed before time. In the beginning was the Word and the Word became Flesh (i am working from memory). So Jesus was God before mankind existed and he was God when he was put up on the cross. He was God and man-flesh at the same time. He was the sacrificial lamb as well. You will notice that in John the Crucifixion takes place on the day the lambs are sanctified at the Temple whereas in the Synoptics the Crucifixion takes place after the Passover meal. In John, Jesus was the meal.

So, it was John's intention from the very first verse to proclaim the redemptive significance of the Crucifixion whereas the Synoptics were more intent on developing Jesus' credentials as a holy man. If I may say this without causing consternation the Synoptics wrote of Jesus still as Jew whereas in John we see the beginning of Jesus as Christ and the beginning of Christianity. Dare I say it: "one big leap for mankind!" lol!

The whole tone and intent is different. John is more metaphorical I think and more focused on the Redemption. That's why I think the meaning of John 14-6 has to be considered in isolation of anything that was said or reported in the Synoptic Gospels. Again, this is all from what I have read here and there, so subject to debate. But clearly the G of John is not of the same species as the Synoptics.

quote:

It is known, for example, that there are two levels to Christ's teachings. This is confirmed in the canonical Gospels themselves, and also in other more recently discovered texts.

Now this I find very interesting and I wonder if you are referring to the discovery of the G of Mary Magdalene in circa 1850 or whenever and the discovery in 1945 of the Gnostic G of Thomas and the other manuscripts at Nag Hammadi, Egypt. If so I would be happy to examine that topic with you to my limited ability, especially the mystical Gnostic myth.

quote:

With respect to the canonical Gospels, in Matthew we find...

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.... Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. ~Matthew 13:10-11,13

It is my understanding that John did not even deal with the parables, which is another mark to distinguish it from the Synoptic Gs

quote:

Now, you quoted John in your post...

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." ~John 14:6

Certainly this makes no sense literally. But I would say, it is not intended to be taken so. It is intended to be understood on a different level. It makes a world of sense if "through Me" we understand the indwelling Christ, the indwelling spirit which each of us must discover within ourselves.

It is at this point i believe you are sliding down the slope into Gnosticism which is heretical to the Christian tradition that solidified in the fourth century ce.

quote:

Then, you can see why this too makes sense...

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ~Matthew 25:40

This makes sense in Matthew if you realize that Jesus was Apocalyptic ... you know, standing on the street corner with a sign saying the end is near, the poor shall inherit the new Kingdom of God on Earth, sort of like the Charles Manson of his day. But in John the end came and went without a ripple and so was put off to a future date and the Kingdom was transfered upstairs.

quote:

You observed in your post that, "some gleefully await the Rapture when the good boys and girls will ascend with healthy bodies into Paradise and then the Second Coming of Christ when the "evil-doers" will be punished."

Indeed, they do. But it can also be said that...

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: ~Matthew 13:14.

Kirata

Quite honestly I am not prepared to reply substantively to that from my meager knowledge of the Revelation of John at this time. It is not even one of the Gospels, so I will have to ask you to let me take a pass on that for the purposes of this discussion.

Thank you for an interesting and challenging post, Kirata. I look forward to more discussion with you.

Vincent

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/22/2009 7:07:56 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 406

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/22/2009 9:16:07 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

LOL

I dont ever recall claiming to be "christian"

If that is the case and you are not, i think there are some who might think it equally shameful that you put yourself forward as a spokesperson and defender of Christian "rights" to pray wherever they wish, and you do it in such an abominable manner that tramples their gospels of Love. Tsk, tsk. Hiding behind that weak verbal dodge does not excuse your vile tactics. Christians could probably be better served without "friends" like you.

Didn't your mama ever teach you if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all?

Too bad, tg. I think we could probably like each other in different circumstances.

vinnie

Good thing what you think means little to me. I was taught to speak out when something is wrong, when a group of people are being oppressed. I have spoken out about gay rights, yet i am not gay. I have spoken for racial equality, yet to look at me one would think i am white. In this, follow both my parents' teachings and my faith's beliefs.

You dont like what i said.. tough. block me if you want. No one has any right to tell people what they may lawfully do or not do. I am sure you have heard of the term, religious persecution.

quote:

Religious persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group of individuals as a response to their religious beliefs of affiliations. The tendency of societies or groups within society to alienate or repress different subcultures is a recurrent theme in human history. Moreover, because a person's religion often determines to a significant extent his or her morality and personal identity, religious differences can be significant cultural factors.

Religious persecution may be triggered by religious bigotry (i.e. the denigration of practitioners religions other than those of the oppressors) or by the State when it views a particular religious group as a threat to its interests or security. At a societal level, this dehumanization of a particular religious group may readily turn into violence or other forms of persecution

quote:

Denial of benefits and denial of certain civil rights and liberties are less severe, and are either described as mild forms of religious persecution or as religious discrimination. There clearly is a difference between denying a religious group tax-exempt status and threatening them with imprisonment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution

quote:

Please stop acting as if you are being martyred when all we are asking is to keep the public square a secular arena.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2905162

quote:

No one is stopping you from believing what you wish to believe or praying to whichever god you wish to pray to. Just stop pushing it into our faces by constantly proclaiming we are a Christian nation. We are a nation of believers, non-believers, and the indifferent. Go pray, brother. But do it some place where I do not have to encounter it and I in turn will not trouble you. Seems like a fair deal.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2905499

quote:

I believe my recall is quite accurate. If you go back to your post #309 you will see where you responded to my call for a secular arena by invoking the establishment of religion clause and the free exercise thereof. That is still my complaint. I welcome the discussion of religion and non-religion in public discourse, the pros and cons, etc, but not the free exercise thereof. I do strenuously object to that and I do not consider that an abridgement of freedom of speech.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2906848

All these posts by you scream of oppression of religious freedom. Exactly what our founders did not want.

vinnie, you are no longer entertaining. you have shown yourself to be an extremist in your views against religion. you have demonstrated your beliefs are just as oppressive as those you rail against.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/22/2009 9:18:33 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 407

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/23/2009 5:14:30 PM

vincentML

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tazzygirl

quote:

All these posts by you scream of oppression of religious freedom. Exactly what our founders did not want.

vinnie, you are no longer entertaining. you have shown yourself to be an extremist in your views against religion. you have demonstrated your beliefs are just as oppressive as those you rail against.

So sorry to see you continue to rant. Must be difficult to be you.

Block you? I wouldn't dream of it. However, when I read a post of yours, particlularly if it is directed at me I shall try to remember this dictum: "Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

Again you continue to waffle and ignore my assertion that the school prayer cases of the early 1960s redefined religious freedom to include freedom from religion. You reply with strident and emotionally ladened accusations of bigotry and oppression. A simple answer will do. Accusations of bigotry are feint disembling. Either you agree with that appraisal of what the Courts did or you don't and provide a simple clear reason.

I leave you with this to stew over:

1. My views are not extremist. They are quite common and mainstream.
2. Beliefs are not oppressive; actions are. I have taken no actions that can be judged oppressive. Your mischaracterizations are laughable and pathetic.
3. I have never called you any names but I shall continue to judge your methods of debate as disembling and contemptable.
4. I am not here to entertain you. Where did you ever get that idea? LOL!

Have a good stew, tg. I would be happy to have a rational discussion with you when your anger is under management.

vinnie

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/23/2009 5:19:24 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 408

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/23/2009 5:24:30 PM

tazzygirl

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lol.. a stew... hardly. i dont stew over boys.

actions begin with words. now your suggesting we wait for the words to take action before determining they are oppressive.

such a joke... a sad one.

i have no more time to spend on a boy who cant admit he was wrong and continues to argue the point that because so many others feel this is right, that its ok. the same was felt about slavery.

until you own up to your attempts here, i have nothing further to say to you.

take care.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 409

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/23/2009 5:52:05 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

until you own up to your attempts here, i have nothing further to say to you.

take care.

Oh, thank you, sweet Jesus!!!!! LOL!
I shall love you anyway, tg, like a good Christian would, if I were although I am not.

And you take care as well, luv. See you around campus.

Curtain decends, cast leaves stage left after a few well earned bows to earnest applause.
The drama has ended. May we have one final "amen?" Thank you.

vinnie

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/23/2009 6:20:26 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 410

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/23/2009 9:21:18 PM

GotSteel

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So Tazzy....does that mean we agree that there are evil Christians?

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 11/23/2009 9:22:00 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 411

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/24/2009 5:17:59 AM

Moonhead

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Tomas de Torquemada wasn't a very nice man, by most accounts. Then there's Pope Adolph as well: I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 412

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/24/2009 5:39:25 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

The problem with texts like the Gospels is that you have to know what Christ is talking about in order to understand what he is saying (and discern the corruptions that are incompatible with it).

It is known, for example, that there are two levels to Christ's teachings. This is confirmed in the canonical Gospels themselves, and also in other more recently discovered texts. With respect to the canonical Gospels, in Matthew we find...

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.... Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. ~Matthew 13:10-11,13

Now, you quoted John in your post...

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." ~John 14:6

Certainly this makes no sense literally. But I would say, it is not intended to be taken so. It is intended to be understood on a different level. It makes a world of sense if "through Me" we understand the indwelling Christ, the indwelling spirit which each of us must discover within ourselves.

Then, you can see why this too makes sense...

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ~Matthew 25:40

You observed in your post that, "some gleefully await the Rapture when the good boys and girls will ascend with healthy bodies into Paradise and then the Second Coming of Christ when the "evil-doers" will be punished."

Indeed, they do. But it can also be said that...

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: ~Matthew 13:14.

Kirata

Not all organized churches teach the rapture either. Lutherans, for one example, do not. I will admit to some bias here, since I was raised in a Lutheran household. Unlike "fundamental" churches (which cannot trace themselves to the earliest churches of antiquity so don't know which foundation they align themselves to) Lutherans believe in the continual examination of the church itself, its tenants, practices, dogma, ritual, etc. It is growing up being taught that it is perfectly acceptable to question the church, question religion, question the bible, that led me to see that each person finds their own relationship with the Universe.

The gnostics practiced a "christ within" form of worship that seems entirely reasonable to me. It places responsibility for salvation upon the individual, not by hocus-pocus rules. It allows for anyone of any faith to be "saved". The Yoruba tradition of the Orisha teaches that no one single religion holds all the Truth, but that each religion has a piece of the Truth and only by unity will all the Truth be revealed.

There are so many different ways people believe in God. Even those who are humanists look to their place within the Universe. Isn't that a piece of the Truth as well? Will science prove a form of energy not yet named? Could it be this energy could also be called "god"?

It isn't God that's the problem. God doesn't start wars or spew hatred, people do. If not "God" people would (and have) find some other battle cry to justify their hate, greed, and thirst for power.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 413

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/24/2009 5:50:57 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

So Tazzy....does that mean we agree that there are evil Christians?

OMG, Steel, I hope you are not suggesting that Christians were so evil and ignorant to believe in great numbers the righteousness of stacking Africans like so many pieces in cords of wood in narrow coffin-like boxes on shelves in the airless cargo hold of a ship where they lay in their own vomit and shit while the fragile vessel made the crossing for weeks over treacherous seas. And then they looked to their government to support such a belief. Why they even fought a war in which half a million were casualties to support that Christian belief.

And now some amongst us look approvingly to those Founders who supported that "peculiar institution" and the so-called foundation of religious freedom that this country was built upon allegedly. Never mind that slaves were actually innumerated as 3/5ths or 5/6ths(?) person in the Constitution written by those same wise Founders and that the slave trade was allowed to continue another 20 years, and that slavery was not prohibited in that doctrine.

The question remains unanswered in certain quarters that the contemporary interpretation of the Establishment Clause as applied by the 14th Amendment includes the right of freedom from religion. Poor tg still cannot contend with that and remains silent in the face of it, choosing instead to dissemble by calling us "boys." And so by a twist of her own logic on majority/minority right/wrong suggests that since a majority of the citizens approve of prayer in the schools we who disapprove should recognise we are wrong. Until such time as we admit our failings she will not speak to us again. More precisely she will not speak to me who is no longer entertaining, as if that were my assigned task in life.

Ah well, we are "blessed" by her promise of silence.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 414

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/24/2009 8:46:30 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

So Tazzy....does that mean we agree that there are evil Christians?

You mean like Fred Phelps?

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 415

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/24/2009 9:19:56 AM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Not all organized churches teach the rapture either. Lutherans, for one example, do not. I will admit to some bias here, since I was raised in a Lutheran household. Unlike "fundamental" churches (which cannot trace themselves to the earliest churches of antiquity so don't know which foundation they align themselves to) Lutherans believe in the continual examination of the church itself, its tenants, practices, dogma, ritual, etc. It is growing up being taught that it is perfectly acceptable to question the church, question religion, question the bible, that led me to see that each person finds their own relationship with the Universe.

Welcome, eyesopened. Good to hear from you in this thread.

I had the privilege to earn my Bachelor of Science Degree at Upsala College, a small Lutheran institution in East Orange, NJ and it was there that i was introduced to the tradition of critical literary analysis of the Bible, and I am forever grateful to my Lutheran teachers for that.

Lutherans do not teach the rapture as far as I know today. Fundamentalist (literalist) and charismatic churches do. It seems from what I have read, their numbers are growing rapidly while the congregations of the "old line" churches are diminishing. I have read, although I cannot give you a citation, that there is underway a significant revolution arising out of African and South American immigration whose charismatic wave threatens to overwhelm the "old line." That is only what I have read. I think it was in a past Atlantic article, before someone again accuses me wrongly and mean-spiritedly of being a bigot. It was reported that the population of Africans and South Americans is growing like wild fire in the charismatic churches in the United States.

quote:

The Gnostics practiced a "christ within" form of worship that seems entirely reasonable to me. It places responsibility for salvation upon the individual, not by hocus-pocus rules. It allows for anyone of any faith to be "saved". The Yoruba tradition of the Orisha teaches that no one single religion holds all the Truth, but that each religion has a piece of the Truth and only by unity will all the Truth be revealed.

A quick google reveals to me that the Yoruba are outside the traditions of First Century Palestine and the subsequent canons of the Christian Bible, the topic of my post and waaaay beyond my knowledge, so I will have to take a pass of that and accept your information without question.

There may be some strains of Gnosticism today that practice a "christ within." However, the original Gnostic myth and the First Century Gnostics did not have that outlook. I rely here without specific citation to the writings of my teacher (in books) Bart D Ehrman whose weblink is here. Ehrman is a graduate of Wheaton College and then the Princeton Seminary Institute. He is currently a professor of Theology at the University of North Carolina, a recognized biblical scholar, and the publisher of many books easily accessible to the lay reader, and oh not so incidentally a Non-believer.

There were both pagan and christian cults of Gnosticism in the time of Jesus' life and afterwards. The Myth was that the Goddess of Wisdom Sophia fell from heaven (jumped or was pushed) and from there issued lesser gods (yahweh, as some believed) who created the corrupt material world. The christian Gnostics believed that there was a knowledge (gnosis) transmitted from Jesus that would permit them to break the bonds of their corrupt material body and ascend as pure spirit into Paradise. I emphasize in the early Gnostic church it was a knowledge from Jesus not the Christ within that they sought to attain. The references for this idea are in the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the more recently discovered Gospel of Thomas. You might care to google them and see if I have the right slant on it. I am pretty much reporting from my reading of Ehrman who cites these two Gospels and some of the writings of the early proto-orthodox church fathers who railed against Gnosticism as our main sources of understanding it. Peter and some of the other disciples were jealous of Mary, believing Jesus had given her the special gnosis through a direct kiss on the lips. Unfortunately, the Gnosis remains unknown because that middle portion of the G of Mary is missing, was never found with the rest of the manuscript.

The Gnostic belief was anathema to the proto-orthodox Fathers of the Church (who had a hand in codifying the NT) because the Orthodox belief is that Christ was resurrected body and spirit and eventually at the judgment those favored by God will be resurrected in both body and spirit and the body shall be healed for eternity. The Gnostics believed the goal was to escape the bonds of the material body so the pure spirit could attain Paradise. Therein lies the rub of the conflict and why Gnosticism is considered a Heresy. I am open to rebuttal of course.

quote:

There are so many different ways people believe in God. Even those who are humanists look to their place within the Universe. Isn't that a piece of the Truth as well? Will science prove a form of energy not yet named? Could it be this energy could also be called "god"?

Pretty much anything is possible as far as new discoveries in Science. That is what Science is about after all. And new discoveries or just facts/observations that do not fit accepted theory require new theory. That is the main orthodoxy of science method. I find it rather inconceivable to think any new form of energy would be called "god" since by our current definitions energy in Science is a construct of the material universe while "god" is a construct of the supernatural. The material, natural universe is made up of fairly predictable, measureable Laws (recurring events) whereas the supernatural incorporates the chaos and exception of miracles. The two seem irrevocably mutually exclusive to me. As I said to you in another thread, we Atheists do marvel and stand in awe of the existence of the Universe (this among others perhaps) And we are in awe of the existence of Life. We just do not see anything to lead us to accept the existence of a supernatural world, a creator, or of the survival of the personality beyond the decay of brain tissue. I am at peace with that just as you are at peace with your form of worship, So, to answer your question directly, yes there are many different ways for people to believe and non-belief is one.

quote:

It isn't God that's the problem. God doesn't start wars or spew hatred, people do. If not "God" people would (and have) find some other battle cry to justify their hate, greed, and thirst for power.

Again, I rely on Ehrman for this thought. If God is omnipotent and benevolent why does he permit the innocent to suffer the ravages of war, pestilence, poverty, thirst, hunger, disease, and natural disasters. Surely we do not blame the evil and greed of men for tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, cyclones, and drought. God is omnipotent but the innocent children suffer horrors apparently needlessly. God is omnipotent and beneficent but Evil exists. Ehrman reports this unanswered question is what turned him from Biblical Fundamentalist to Non-believer.

Be well, eyeopened, and be kind, as I expect you usually are.

Vinnie

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 416

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/25/2009 4:32:55 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
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From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Again, I rely on Ehrman for this thought. If God is omnipotent and benevolent why does he permit the innocent to suffer the ravages of war, pestilence, poverty, thirst, hunger, disease, and natural disasters. Surely we do not blame the evil and greed of men for tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, cyclones, and drought. God is omnipotent but the innocent children suffer horrors apparently needlessly. God is omnipotent and beneficent but Evil exists. Ehrman reports this unanswered question is what turned him from Biblical Fundamentalist to Non-believer.

Be well, eyeopened, and be kind, as I expect you usually are.

Vinnie

To the question, "Why does God permit (insert any bad thing)?" I will counter with this: "Why do WE permit it?"
If a person claims to be Christian then they should also know that mankind was given stewardship over the earth. Why do WE permit evil, greed, and the suffering of others? Why do WE destroy our earth to create the climate changes to trigger more natural disasters? Why do WE do these things? It is convenient for the believer and non-believer alike to blame God for not doing something about suffering when it is WE do are doing nothing.

In the Lutheran prayer of confession we say we have sinned in thought, word, and deed; by what we have done and by what we have left undone. So I examine myself and see my greatest sin is what I could have done but failed to do. I have often wondered what the world would be like if each human took on the task of doing what they can.

I see that a benevolent parent doesn't intervene in everything their child does. A good parent will stand with a broken heart and watch their child make their mistakes and love them anyway. A good parent teaches their children nothing if they do everything for them. Watch the show Intervention one time and see how much a wayward child rejects the intervention of a loving parent. It's not God that's the problem. WE are the problem. And, WE are the solution.

I cannot speak for anyone else. Anything I say about my personal experience will be ridiculed. I have experienced so much blessing, joy, love, and peace in my life. Not because I sat back and demanded it from God. Nor because I took the role of a cosmic begger and whined to Heaven. I simply try each day to do what I can, reaching outward and examining inward.

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 11/25/2009 4:38:24 AM >

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 417

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/25/2009 6:43:04 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

To the question, "Why does God permit (insert any bad thing)?" I will counter with this: "Why do WE permit it?"
If a person claims to be Christian then they should also know that mankind was given stewardship over the earth. Why do WE permit evil, greed, and the suffering of others? Why do WE destroy our earth to create the climate changes to trigger more natural disasters? Why do WE do these things? It is convenient for the believer and non-believer alike to blame God for not doing something about suffering when it is WE do are doing nothing.

Greetings again eyesopened. i hope you are well today.

Let me point out there were five mass extinctions of life on earth before man arrived, according to the paleontological evidence.

The details are here if you have an interest.

Within human history and before the advent of the Industrial Revolution with its attendent concerns for greenhouse warming there has been an unceasing history of Natural Disasters - Krakatoa, Santorini to name just two mega disasters that predated the Industrial Age. Thousands of innocents died. Who is responsible if not God the Omnipotent? Did he not sin by omission, by neglect of his children? Did those innocent children reject his intervention? Did they fail to heed some lesson, or did the volcanoes erupt because of the "Evil" of Nature. The latter, I think. Nature is a brutish and unforgiving actor because God (for believers) permits Her Evil whims.

quote:

It's not God that's the problem. WE are the problem. And, WE are the solution.

Obviously, we do not agree totally here. Although, I do sympathize with your viewpoint when it comes to such matters as our ability to alleviate the suffering of poverty, disease, and thirst in the primative cultures.

quote:

I cannot speak for anyone else. Anything I say about my personal experience will be ridiculed. I have experienced so much blessing, joy, love, and peace in my life. Not because I sat back and demanded it from God. Nor because I took the role of a cosmic begger and whined to Heaven. I simply try each day to do what I can, reaching outward and examining inward.

An admirable sentiment. One with which an Atheist can happily agree. The Cosmos is not listening. No satisfaction to be gained by begging on that street corner.

Be well, Eyes.

Vinnie

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 418

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/26/2009 4:15:22 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

Vincent,
Thank you for the link. It has been really a wonderful experience for me to have our discussion. I would only hope that others can see how two people with diffent (yet often the same or similar) views can discuss and learn from each other without the bickering and name-calling that so often is seen on these boards.

Of course there are natural disasters. Of course they are violent and deadly. This is fact. The whole of the universe is full of violence from the big bang until today. Once cannot expect it to change. It is a fact.

It is also a fact that in part, these violent and deadly occurances set the stage for humans to exist at all. (ohmigod! a "believer" who isn't a creationist!) Am I to be angry with the Great Spirit for my existance? And to my knowledge, people aren't killed by earthquakes but by stuff falling on them. Or as Ron White said about hurricanes, "It's not that the wind is blowing... It's what the wind is blowing." I know that the only way for a forest to be healthy, it needs to burn from time to time to allow the canopy to clear for the seedlings below to find light. The volcano errupts and then leaves behind nutrient-rich soil. The Hawaiian people who live on land created by volcanos named it Paradise - go figure.) Lightning helps disolve nitrogen into the rain to provide this necessary element to plants and creates the ozone we humans strive so hard to distroy. There is no upside to man-made violence that I can see. And humans have been responsible for more than a few extinctions ourselves.

So far, this violent planet is the only one we have found that is teaming with life. And teaming with life as a direct result of many of these disasters.

It is not necessary to believe in the Divine to do good or evil. But it is interesting how often "god" is blamed for non-belief. Take god out of the equation altogether and we are still left with natural disasters, good, and evil. Again, it's not God that is the problem. Knowing what we know about mass extinctions, evil-doers, and suffering, the questions till remains, what are WE going to do about it?

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 11/26/2009 4:23:48 AM >

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 419

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/26/2009 6:24:09 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Vincent,
Thank you for the link. It has been really a wonderful experience for me to have our discussion. I would only hope that others can see how two people with diffent (yet often the same or similar) views can discuss and learn from each other without the bickering and name-calling that so often is seen on these boards.

Of course there are natural disasters. Of course they are violent and deadly. This is fact. The whole of the universe is full of violence from the big bang until today. Once cannot expect it to change. It is a fact.

It is also a fact that in part, these violent and deadly occurances set the stage for humans to exist at all. (ohmigod! a "believer" who isn't a creationist!) Am I to be angry with the Great Spirit for my existance? And to my knowledge, people aren't killed by earthquakes but by stuff falling on them. Or as Ron White said about hurricanes, "It's not that the wind is blowing... It's what the wind is blowing." I know that the only way for a forest to be healthy, it needs to burn from time to time to allow the canopy to clear for the seedlings below to find light. The volcano errupts and then leaves behind nutrient-rich soil. The Hawaiian people who live on land created by volcanos named it Paradise - go figure.) Lightning helps disolve nitrogen into the rain to provide this necessary element to plants and creates the ozone we humans strive so hard to distroy. There is no upside to man-made violence that I can see. And humans have been responsible for more than a few extinctions ourselves.

So far, this violent planet is the only one we have found that is teaming with life. And teaming with life as a direct result of many of these disasters.

It is not necessary to believe in the Divine to do good or evil. But it is interesting how often "god" is blamed for non-belief. Take god out of the equation altogether and we are still left with natural disasters, good, and evil. Again, it's not God that is the problem. Knowing what we know about mass extinctions, evil-doers, and suffering, the questions till remains, what are WE going to do about it?

Thank you so much for a lovely and intelligent post, eyes (i hope i can use that abbreviation without offense) Your comments remind me the giant Sequoia trees will not release their seed from the pods until a temperature is reached that can only be provided by a forest fire. Just another example of the quirkie relationship between life and disaster. The belief is growing that man-initiated attempts to fight great forest fires are misplaced efforts in which we are meddling with Nature's own ruthless ability to balance itself. Nature got along quite well without us before we came along and will do quite well without us when our species is gone. It would appear the only reason for such strenuous efforts to fight nature's fires is because people build their MacMansions down in the wind tunnel valleys.

You are right: it is a violent planet teaming with life. The tectonic plates are still sliding and pushing against one another creating the earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that in turn create new land upon which life grips tenaciously. It is all quite wonderous. Btw, Iceland is another marvelous example of new land being created by volcanic mountain-building, and it lies along the northern tip of the mid-Atlantic Ridge which is a rising mountain chain beneath the Atlantic Ocean that is pushing North and South America further away from Europe and Africa. Soon enough we will not be able to wave across to one another. lol.

I love to read Ehrman's books because he teaches me so much about Christianity without trying to persuade me in its favor. The reason is because he is disillusioned with it despite his long career as a Fundamentalist preacher. It is also his handicap which I do not share. I understand his intellectual argument but I do not share any anger with god for the existence of evil. I can't convincingly say Bart is angry. I think he simply confesses he was turned away from the Bible because it offers too many conflicting answers as to why Evil exists and the innocent suffer. You know, maybe he is angry.

As a Darwinian I can simply shrug my shoulders and say it is understandable there has been suffering because the Geological evolution as well as the Biological evolution are mindless, uncaring processes. In other words sh#t happened and will continue to happen. There have been five major life extinctions, yes. The great dinosaurs were swept away, yes. I see no reason to exempt the human species from a similar fate. Here today and gone tomorrow with no great sorrow. The roaches will survive however. Irony!

The forces of Nature are awesome and not easily captured by puny computer models. I perceive a certain amount of arrogance and misplaced energy in all of this political activity to save the planet from warming. The planet has warmed and cooled on its own without our assistance many times. Seems a bit of chest-thumping to me to think we can affect Nature. Sort of like Mighty Mouse: "Here he comes to save the day." I know, I know, we should stop doing harmful things. But I wonder if we can rely on computer models to tell us what is harmful and what the prescription should be. Already there is a scandal brewing over some leaked emails attesting to the possibility of data being fixed to minimise the inconvenient existence of the Medieval Warming that allowed the Vikings to settle Greenland.

If it comforts you to believe there is a Great Spirit, I cheer your comfort. It is lovely for you. For me it is easier to accept the alternative hypothesis that mass/energy is eternal going in both directions: forward (as the Religious say) so why not backwards as well? If time began in this Universe with the Big Bang then perhaps there are multiverses where time has and does begin anew.

Allow me to share these two pieces with you. One about the current crisis faced by species and the other published today about the evolving perception of god. I think you will find them interesting.

Olivia Judson writing on the 150 year anniversary of Darwin's publication.

Nicholas D Kristof on The Religious Wars

Thank you for an interesting and thoughtful post, eyes. I really appreciate your taking the time and giving me your attention.

omg, I almost forgot. A very happy Thanksgiving to you and your Master.

Vincent

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/26/2009 6:31:08 AM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 420

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