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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/17/2009 4:15:50 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I don't think the point is to make the prisoner happy....





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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/17/2009 6:17:57 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack1953

In GODS name? arent you the one discussing that with me in here last night? and no I dont want to start that up again. MJ


They why in god's name did you?


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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/17/2009 7:57:02 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Abolish the death penalty: it's the right to do.

Well, keep it as an option, just for me? I think I would rather be executed -- preferrably standing up in the light of day by a firing squad -- even wrongly, than condemned to spend the rest of my life in some hell-hole.

K.

Amen. Am I still allowed to say that around here?

Hell I might even have to think about suicide by guard, for a shorter than life term. The whole concept of being kept in a cage for any reason or any amount of time would be enough to make me pray for death or escape.

If society ever decides that I shouldn't be out and about in the population, why would I deserve to be kept alive and eating off of it? Worried about the expense of offing me? Use a frigun rope, or sword.

Liberty or death,
Thadius

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/17/2009 8:04:31 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You're all saying that because you're not about to get fried - as far as I know, nobody here knows how they'd feel if they were about to be wrongfully executed, do they?

It's all very nice to say things like "liberty or death", but there are dozens of people who were murdered in the name of justice when they were innocent, and I doubt very much they all would have had your bravado.

Kill capital punishment.

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/17/2009 8:20:20 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You're all saying that because you're not about to get fried - as far as I know, nobody here knows how they'd feel if they were about to be wrongfully executed, do they?

It's all very nice to say things like "liberty or death", but there are dozens of people who were murdered in the name of justice when they were innocent, and I doubt very much they all would have had your bravado.

Kill capital punishment.

No I haven't been falsely accused or convicted. That still doesn't change how I feel about my personal freedom. Without one, what is the other worth? It has nothing to do with bravery, it has to do with life not being worth anything without my freedom. While some may find that being in a cage, or handcuffs and shackles is a turn on; for me it would be a far worse thing than being executed.

As far as the subject of the original post. I remember being taught that it was better that 10 guilty men went free than one innocent man was jailed. It is a shame that our justice system and some overly aggressive prosecutors have found it better to reverse that ideal.

I still favor capital punishment, but only in cases where there is absolutely no room for doubt. Oh, and possibly for politicians when they retire.

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/18/2009 9:28:12 AM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		As I recall, the rabble got hold of the guillotine in the 1790's, and they applied the death penalty rather liberally.... to over 16,500 people (give or take) Strangely, this did nothing to improve their (the rabbles') political or economic situation, nor did it do anything to reduce crime... What it DID do, was create a new form or theatre for people to enjoy in the local town squares.


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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/18/2009 9:26:36 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Its terribly sad and unfortunate that life just isn't fair.


This is a true statement. On this note:

No one is born promised a good life. No one is born promised a happy childhood, or enough food to eat, or that they'll survive to adulthood, or that their entire lives won't be utterly miserable.

Billions of people spend their entire lives in abject poverty, suffering non-stop until they finally die - their bodies riddled with parasites, their every moment filled with torture and agony. And then, if you believe your pastor, they go to Hell, and burn for an eternity of infinite torment that makes even the hideousness of their lives seem like paradise in comparison. For ever and ever, amen.

Here in the US, too, no one is promised a good life. No one is promised a happy childhood, or enough food to eat, or a good education, or a good job.

You're spat out into the world wailing. Think about that. From the moment you are born, you act like you're entitled to something. Like just because dad stuck it in you he should have to feed you; like just because mom got knocked up she should take the time to hold you and nurse you and clean you, instead of tossing you in some dumpster somewhere and going on with her life.

But ultimately, you aren't entitled to anything. You aren't entitled to a job. You aren't entitled to an education. You aren't entitled to the opportunity to find a job. And if no one decides to be merciful and give you these things, then you will fucking starve, or you will go out and try to take them by force - and then we will find you, and we will lock you up, and we will let Bubba butt-rape you like you so obviously deserve.

You are not entitled to love. You are not entitled to sex. You are not entitled to decency, or respect, or compassion. And if no one gives you these things, it is your own fault when you lose your sense of what it means to be a person, and start hurting others - and then we will find you, and we will lock you up, and we will let Bubba butt-rape you like you so obviously deserve, and then we will kill you. And even if you don't hurt anyone, if we don't like you, and we can find a way to pretend that you did hurt someone, then we'll do it anyways - because you are not entitled to justice, and you are not entitled to compassion, and you are not entitled to a voice or a name or a life. You came from nothing, and you are nothing, and you will return to nothing. And we owe you nothing.

You deserve only what you can take. And before you can take, you must give us our share, and you must learn to take in the ways that we will let you take - or we will let Bubba will straighten you out.

Blessed is the name of the Lord, through whom all things do come to pass.

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/18/2009 9:41:39 PM   
einstien5201


Posts: 63
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Status: offline 		I support the death penalty. I believe that most people act in a (mostly) rational manner when making decisions, and weigh the risk/reward benefits of thier actions. Death is a pretty high price to pay, and weights that ratio against crimes for which the death penalty is applied. Incorrect convictions happen. It sucks. In an ideal world it wouldn't happen, but we're all human and we make mistakes. Assuming that the rate of incorrect convictions is the same for death penalty cases as for life in prison without parole (and I suspect it's actually quite a bit lower), then I don't see much of a difference. Yes, if you're in prison you can appeal your case. But appeals courts rarely hear the whole case again (that's the juristiction of the trial court, hence the name), but rule only on the handling of the case. If there was a mistrial, this can be appealed from Death Row just as easily as from the rest of a prison. I'll admit the possibility that an convict could be executed before his first appeal was heard, but it seems to me that most Death Row inmates get far more chances to appeal than non-death-penalty convicts.

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/18/2009 9:44:44 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201

I believe that most people act in a (mostly) rational manner when making decisions, and weigh the risk/reward benefits of thier actions.


...


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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/18/2009 10:44:02 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Yeah,I have to agree Ialda,that setence does tend to boggle the mind.......most people rational.....sheesh where do they come up with this stuff?

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/19/2009 5:35:12 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
It's about how much our society (not the prisoner) values freedom and dignity.


Perhaps but any society that truly values "freedom and dignity" would be sickened by imprisoning - let alone executing - innocent people. How much "dignity" is in that?

luci



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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/19/2009 5:41:08 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
It's about how much our society (not the prisoner) values freedom and dignity.


Perhaps but any society that truly values "freedom and dignity" would be sickened by imprisoning - let alone executing - innocent people. How much "dignity" is in that?

luci




Apparently, to some people, wrongful executions are a fair price to pay for the pleasure of killing those that truly 'deserve' it.

Obviously, these people were never on death row for something they didn't do: I hope to fuck they never end up there, but at the same time, a little bit of schadenfreude wouldn't go amiss. I can't help but have fleeting evil thoughts  .

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/19/2009 6:08:09 AM   
rikigrl


Posts: 203
Joined: 5/14/2009
Status: offline 		The death penalty has never been shown to be a deterrent to crime, it is simply a way for people to enjoy the vicarious feeling of power that comes with shouting "kill kill kill" (not literally shouting of course, we're much too civilised for that, the commonly used euphamism today is "closure".  

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/19/2009 6:17:26 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

South Carolina acknowledges that it executed 2 innocent men. A little late for them and their immediate families, of course, but that's the price of justice in a free society. Ain't it?

quote:

Nearly 100 years had passed since his great-uncles, Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin, were wrongfully executed in South Carolina. On Wednesday, a board voted 7-0 to pardon both men, clearing their names in the 1913 killing of a veteran of the Confederate Army. It marks the first time in history that South Carolina has issued a posthumous pardon in a capital murder case.


Oops! Our Bad!



Wow...had to go back 100 years to try and show why the death penalty is bad hmmm? Interesting.


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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/19/2009 10:43:55 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		FR

Wrongful conviction is my only problem with capital punishment. I have stated this before. How to fix this ?

Fully informed juries, including instruction that they can acquit anyone they please for any reason. (they can you know)

Stricter rules regarding evidence handling and the pretrial discovery process.

Very strict laws concerning judges and prosecutors communication and affiliation.

In any capital case there would be a trial in common law court, like they did to Kevorkian in Michigan. They remove the admiralty flag and replace it with a real one, the judge takes off his robe and has regular clothes. It is open to the public. Evidence is public. The execution is public.

That would still not be perfect, but it would go a long way in improving the situation. We really need to do better in the 'justice' system. Taking twenty years of a person's life is not that different than execution. You walk out the door and half of your family and friends are dead if you're lucky. There is no support system. You have no idea what kind of car it was that just drove by.

Even imprisonment should be harsh. Inmates required to work and go to school to better themselves rather than what we have now. Money still buys alot in the joint. A buddy of mine did twenty years, but he had money when he walked in the door. He found ways to make more. He had a "store" and became a tatoo artist. After while he won a $40,000 lawsuit because the cieling in the shower caved in on him. He made homemade wine. In fact the hardest thing to get inside is beer. It's too bulky for the risk. Many switch to whiskey or wine. The drugs, while expensive are better than he could get on the street. The smugglers are very picky, understandable because of the risk. Did they rehabilitate him ? Hell no. The aging process did though.

With or without capital punishment, is this the best we can do ? I think not, but the PTB like it this way. There is money in cops and robbers. They want to appear to try to solve the problem, but they have no reason to do so. We had a governor here in Ohio for years who has family in the private prison business. He was one law passing motherfucker to say the least. Rights and Constitutions meant nothing to him. Guess what did. I can give you some hintys. Rubles, zlaty, francs, marks, shekels. Here we call it dollars.

Until and unless that mess is fixed, nothing will get fixed. I don't even want to speculate how many times a prosecutor may have looked at the evidence and said "Well this guy probably did it, but I am more likely to get a conviction on this other guy". The conviction rate is a sort of score card for prosecutors, like harsh sentences are a feather in the cap of elected judges. Nothing could serve the ideal of justice much more poorly then the way things are currently done.

I am about 200% in favor of capital punishment, but it must be meted out fairly, and applied to the right people. Both my legs are on the side of capital punishment, but I won't really jump to that side as long as the system is this fucked up.

T

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/19/2009 11:29:58 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

South Carolina acknowledges that it executed 2 innocent men. A little late for them and their immediate families, of course, but that's the price of justice in a free society. Ain't it?

quote:

Nearly 100 years had passed since his great-uncles, Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin, were wrongfully executed in South Carolina. On Wednesday, a board voted 7-0 to pardon both men, clearing their names in the 1913 killing of a veteran of the Confederate Army. It marks the first time in history that South Carolina has issued a posthumous pardon in a capital murder case.


Oops! Our Bad!



Wow...had to go back 100 years to try and show why the death penalty is bad hmmm? Interesting.



Try a bit more recently:
17 DNA evidence exonerations of prisoners on death row

http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/

Edit hyperlink not working.

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 10/19/2009 11:34:12 AM >

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/20/2009 1:37:49 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci


Perhaps but any society that truly values "freedom and dignity" would be sickened by imprisoning - let alone executing - innocent people. How much "dignity" is in that?

luci




In that case the only option we would have is banishment. Some guys break in and gang-rape somebodies wife and kid. Banishment is not likely to do much good. They might be back in a few months for round two. We can't keep illegals out of our borders.

If you can't shoot them,imprison them or effectively banish them you will just have to live with them.


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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/21/2009 8:24:19 AM   
Sanity


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Status: offline
quote:


Idaho man wants to watch his daughter's killer be executed


MOUNTAIN HOME -- It was a vicious, malicious crime spree in 2002 that took the lives of 10 people on the East Coast, including a Mountain Home woman.

Next month, the killer will be killed, and the father of that local victim wants to be there.

The man known as the D.C. Sniper shot and killed Lori Lewis Rivera. She's now buried in Mountain Home and her father wants to watch her killer die.

"I'd love to push the button to tell you the truth," said Marion Lewis.

The pain and anger are still fresh for Marion Lewis.

"I'm outraged at the pain that he's caused our family," said Lewis.

Seven years ago his 25-year-old daughter was vacuuming her car at a Maryland gas station when she was gunned down by John Muhammad.

"And he shot her in the back and she laid there alone and died," said Lewis.

Lori was the fifth of Muhammad's 13 victims -- 10 of whom died. Now, his execution in Virginia is fast approaching and Lewis wants to be there when it happens. He has strong words for this mass murderer.

"Yea...die you son of a bitch! Sorry about that," said Lewis.


(Full article here)


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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/21/2009 8:57:19 AM   
TwistedHeart74


Posts: 722
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Status: offline 		Mistakes are made. That's reality. People are set up, tried and convicted of crimes they didn't commit. Is it fair? Nope. But, that's life. What is fair?
Is it fair that a child is molested, beaten and left for dead while their attacker gets to sit in jail and keep his life? Nope.
Is it fair when a woman is raped and her attacker gets off due to mishandled evidence? Nope.
What about when someone murders a family and spends the rest of his life sitting in a prison, getting 3 squares meals a day, and an education while the people who lost loved ones have to deal with that loss every day? Hell no it's not fair.
How about the fact that we'll educate prisoners at all? Is that fair? When there's a mother or father trying to put their kids through college to better themselves and they can't. Is that fair?
Or how about this one..giving a convict on death row a new heart and letting a father die all because that convict has rights. That's not fair.
Innocent people go to jail. Guilty people walk the streets.
IMO if you're on death row instead of supporting your ass for the next 20 years while you file appeal after appeal after appeal they should take you into the little steel room with the drain in the floor, stick a glock to the back of your head and pull the freakin trigger.
You can't rehabilitate repeat offenders. You can't take the pedophiles urge to molest away. You can't stop a killer from killing or a rapist from raping.
This is part of society as a whole. The innocent suffer, the guilty get off. The guilty suffer and the innocent celebrate. I think executions should be public. I don't believe in the 3 strikes you're out b.s. You kill someone, you die. You rape, you die. You abuse, you die.
I watched my grandfather die a slow and painful death because a freakin killer on death row needed a heart replacement. They gave it to this murderer instead of my grandfather, a law abiding man of this country who served in the military and retired with honors. How freakin fair is that?
Does it bite the big one when innocents are put in jail and executed? Yes, yes it does. I can't say how I'd feel if it were someone I loved or myself in that position. All I can say is Life isn't fair and never will be.

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RE: That's OK, They Were Probably Guilty Of Something E... - 10/21/2009 10:08:26 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		All of which begs the question.  WHAT IF "I" was on a jury?

Can you imagine how it would all end up?

First I would insist on taking notes- and then I personally want to ask the people involved my own questions.

Deadlocking a jury is possible....  we may never know the mess that the entire circuit would endere if I had just one month to examine its inner nuts and bolts.....

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