RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights

RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (Full Version)

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Louve00 -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 8:35:19 AM)
[sm=oops.gif] What was I thinking?! You're so right, Kittin.

angelikaJ -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 11:04:45 AM)
I take loss of constitutional rights very seriously. And a quick search yields this: http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/health-care-overhaul-constitutional/ Also, there is plenty of evidence available on-line that indicates a very strong conservative bias...in case one missed it in the piece offered. Connelly has a history of writing opinions disguised as fact.

Politesub53 -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 11:26:03 AM)
Media Matters response is interesting. http://mediamattersaction.org/emailchecker/200909110001

angelikaJ -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 1:16:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Media Matters response is interesting. http://mediamattersaction.org/emailchecker/200909110001 Thanks for posting this.

MstrssScarlet -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 2:33:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl You emailed him personally? Yes, I did. Want his email address? See me on the other side. This article was emailed to me and before I posted it, I decided I should confirm the source first. The last time I attempted to post something, I was criticised over and over because I didn't provide any links. No proof! Well, that's all you have here and still you complain. I've spoon fed the information to you and you can either read it and agree or read it and disagree. I have nothing to do with it except passing it on, yet you still feel compelled to attack me. Amazing. And there's nothing we can do? You're looking for a citizenship to another country? Wow. So much for fighting for what you believe in - for either side. There is a link at the bottom of that post to give you access to the health care reform as it stands now. That's one other reason I emailed the gentleman. Guess you missed that. Mistress Scarlet

mnottertail -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 2:35:47 PM)
and at best he sent you back a form rant that has been disproven some time ago. no more spoons, please.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 5:34:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl You emailed him personally? Yes, I did. Want his email address? See me on the other side. This article was emailed to me and before I posted it, I decided I should confirm the source first. The last time I attempted to post something, I was criticised over and over because I didn't provide any links. No proof! Well, that's all you have here and still you complain. I've spoon fed the information to you and you can either read it and agree or read it and disagree. I have nothing to do with it except passing it on, yet you still feel compelled to attack me. Amazing. You may have confirmed the source, but you did not confirm any facts. Do you really not get the difference? All you did was - once again - post an opinion from someone who says things you agree with. That's all you ever seem to do. We've tried to explain that that's not the same as making a factual argument, but for some reason you just can't seem to comprehend that. It's as though you're literally unable to tell the difference between an opinion and a fact. No offense - because you seem like a sincere person - but you consistently give the impression of someone who's completely incapable of thinking for herself, because all you ever do is post other people's opinions and get angry at us for not agreeing with them. When you can't even explain to us why you agree with them, other than to say that it's obvious and doesn't need any further explanation. I'm sure we'd all like to have a genuine debate and discussion with you, but you're not giving us anything to work with. At all. quote: ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet There is a link at the bottom of that post to give you access to the health care reform as it stands now. That's one other reason I emailed the gentleman. Guess you missed that. No, we all saw it. But the link does not work.

tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 9:43:39 PM)
Ahem.. i think her target is me... lol i dont know why i fascinate so many people, like scarlet.. but.. its such a heavy burden. im sure yo have taken note that, with the excepton of DK, she hasnt addressed anyone but me, and that was to try and berate me...lol... very few women get away with that. you would think they would learn.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 10:14:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Ahem.. i think her target is me... lol i dont know why i fascinate so many people, like scarlet.. but.. its such a heavy burden. im sure yo have taken note that, with the excepton of DK, she hasnt addressed anyone but me, and that was to try and berate me...lol... very few women get away with that. you would think they would learn. Oh, no, she's responded to a number of things I said, too. She starts out her post in reply to you, but as she moves through the post, she catches several other people, one after the other. I think she's just unaccustomed to discussions in a message board environment, which could go a long ways toward explaining all these disconnects. She means well, she's obviously no dummy, and I respect her point of view - even agree with a lot of her philosophical outlooks - but she just doesn't seem familiar with debating in this medium. And as for her problem with you - I suspect she just doesn't like roses. Only explanation I can think of.

tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 10:18:04 PM)
~laughs i prefer the thorns. but, its her issue, not mine.

Termyn8or -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 11:01:59 PM)
I suggest you back off Panda. You are getting into the realm of what people believe and why they believe it. You are not ready for that subject, I know because I have thrown it out there before in it's own thread and you were absent. Some people have a tendenct to belive something for the oddest reasons, I agree. But if you want to talk about that, well bring it up. That is one of my favorite topics actually. I plan to do a bit of ad work for a company or two this coming spring, see where that goes. Well people sem to "respect" direct mail more, and even more if it is marked by a pitney Bowes rather than manually stamped. Well I take all this into consideration. This is leading me to something though. It is almost as if I could print the same words and logos on a high gloss page and gain more attention than on regular paper. Why ? As my customer you should realize that it was your money that I am spending on this frivolity. If some people only believe what they see on the web, learn HTML, I did. I don't know all the fancy shit but I can throw together a decent page. Some people might say "Man it's right on the screen right there in front of your eyes", as if that were proof. You know it and I know it. I don't know what the rest of you believe, but I am starting to think the letter A is not the letter A. I am to that point, logically if you think through everything you've ever read, you will get to that point. I am there. If you get here, it is better to have someone around who knows. It is a bit hard to handle, realizing that everything you've ever read might be flawed, or just plain wrong. And I mean from day one. When it comes to really high IQ, that is the glass cieling. When you doubt the solidity of your base reasoning, the base of your knowledge lattice, don't come crying to me. You can come, just don't cry. I have so much more to say on this subject that I will stop now. I have disturbed enough electrons for one day. T

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 11:11:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or I suggest you back off Panda. You are getting into the realm of what people believe and why they believe it. You are not ready for that subject, I know because I have thrown it out there before in it's own thread and you were absent. What in the heck are you talking about now? And what does it have to do with what the rest of us were talking about?

kittinSol -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/19/2009 11:57:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda What in the heck are you talking about now? And what does it have to do with what the rest of us were talking about? Ignore it. Please, ignore it. Check this out! Serge Gainsbourg: initiales BB . Merci. Je t'aime, Panda.

Termyn8or -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 6:59:49 AM)
"What in the heck are you talking about " Credible sources vs incredible sources. All the time I see quotes and cites, and others who discount them as crackpots or whatever. Just where is that line drawn ? You have one school of thought supposing that this is the best thing since sliced bread, and another who thinks there will be death think tanks and your worth is boiled down to cost vs profit, and if they say you die you die. All this from the same document which very few have actually read. We get it all second hand. Some people believe this guy and others believe the other guy. Just how is that decision made ? And no, I am not wasting my time reading the bill. I'm much too busy reading the NYC phone book for that, and it is much more interesting. I am against the whole idea on it's face, the details matter not to me. This is something we should not do in any form and my comments originate from that platform. Right now I will backslide up the fence as far as I can go. Tight regulation of insurers, economic protection from predatory states with slave labor, toys with lead paint. These things might be something for the government to look into. But fuck all those la de da fancy ideas about how much better we are going to do it. We have enough problems. Actually I would sooner have people learn all about caveat emptor rather than letting the government do anything. They fuck up everything they touch, so it is logical that we have them do as little as possible. Nothing anyone says can really refute that. I am also against paying for some welfare Mother to have her twelfth child on my dime. Give birth on the kitchen table like Greatgrandma did. And no more checks. Harsh ? Birth ? Well harsh conditions gave birth to a generation that fueled the industrial revolution. Now we have what, the video game revolution ? What do you believe ? Who do you believe ? Is Rense always wrong ? Is Alex Jones always wrong ? Is Fox news always right ? Does your congressman always tell the truth ? Will this bill be enforced in it entirety and equally or will it be applied selectively ? Will a senator's offspring see the death panel like you and I ? Or is there no death panel. If not why not ? Though it is private insurance, my boss'es Father just had his knees replaced. His own son asked him why, because he is in his eighties. What is he going to go out doing the limbo or something ? I think I would almost want my insurance company to refuse to pay my money for that. My speed is more like a funeral a buddy of mine went to. An old Man was out for a smoke and the preacher came out side and said "Still smoking I see" to which he replied "Why should I quit now ? I am 91 years old". These are important issues. I don't want to waste money, and I don't want to make people suffer. But somewhere along the line someone has to make that decision. Just who would you suggest ? Do you believe what they say ? Do you believe "in" them ? Do you trust them ? If so why do you trust them ? I have worn out alot of nitride coated titanium carbide drill bits just trying to get this question into people's heads, to fish for an answer. What do you believe, research conducted by a major university ? Ummm, who paid for the research. Let me see the contract. Then possibly we can get somewhere. Of course that doesn't tell me what was said behind closed doors. I don't know what to believe anymore. Things have gotten too complicated with all the spin doctors and liars. Even the truth sucks if you can find it. I also totally blew my pool game trying to use compound english on most shots, and I am finding that very difficult to unlearn. I have enough to unlearn. What is it they used to say - Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see ? This is another indication that the older I get, the smarter my ancestors get. I almost believe nothing now, so I guess I am getting close to the truth right ? Something like that. T

thornhappy -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 7:40:27 AM)
As an aside..This American Life did an episode on health care on Saturday. A big thing that no one's discussing is that an insurance company has to negotiate costs with every single hospital in its coverage area. If they aren't major players in that market, they pay more. For example, an appendectomy can cost $900 for Blue Cross Blue Shield, but $10,000 (no shit, I've heard this before) for Podunk Insurance, Inc. Since the hospital gets $900 from BCBS, the hospital then makes up the revenue by charging other companies more. Between the need for all the negotiators, and the inequity in pricing, you get huge inefficiencies in the market. Maryland gets around this by setting rates for all procedures, all consultations, etc. Every person in the state is charged the same, whether they have insurance or not. A public option wouldn't be much of a help if that same negotiation process has to take place. With its size, it may get good rates, but the inefficiencies will remain. This American Life podcasts can be heard for free up to a week after broadcast ("Someone Else's Money", http://www.thisamericanlife.org/)

pahunkboy -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 10:57:58 AM)
....onerous. I cant think of any good legislation in the past 30 years.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 11:41:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "What in the heck are you talking about " Credible sources vs incredible sources. All the time I see quotes and cites, and others who discount them as crackpots or whatever. Just where is that line drawn ? That's fine, but it still doesn't have anything to do with the point - which is that there is a difference between opinion and facts. She's posting opinions, and claiming they're facts. A fact is something you can prove, an opinion is something you just believe. It may be right, it may be wrong, but until you can prove it, it's not a fact. The fact that some opinions turn out to be true doesn't mean that all opinions carry the same weight as proven facts. That doesn't make any sense at all.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 3:26:40 PM)
I found a copy if HB3200 HERE Some of my concerns: 1) In many areas they are left open with a blanket statement of "to be determined by the commissioner". 2) In many areas they are left open and refer to "standards determined by the Health Benefits Adisory Committee". 3) There are 18 members of this committee, 9 appointed by The President, and 9 appointed by the Comptroller of the United States. The Surgeaon General is automatically a member and chairs the committee. All members serve a 3 year term. Only one of these members needs to be a "practicing Physician or Health care professional". So only 1 of 18 members must be a Doctor or related health care professional. The others must represent " The membership of the Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall at least reflect providers, consumer representatives, employers, labor, health insurance issuers, experts in health care financing and delivery, experts in racial and ethnic disparities, experts in care for those with disabilities, representatives of relevant governmental agencies. " 4) The Secretary of the HBAC determines what measures will be put forth to change or adopt "Benefit Standards". Just the Secretary determines this, from what I have read so far. 5) There is a lot of "The Commissioner shall" in what I have read so far, so much of the details are put into a Commissioners hands, and left undefined. That is all the time I have to review it so far. Looks like I am through about 10% of the document, and that includes the Table of Contents.

tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 3:50:07 PM)
Confusing. Thats the original bill, before it hit any committees, no?

tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 4:17:26 PM)
3) There are 18 members of this committee, 9 appointed by The President, and 9 appointed by the Comptroller of the United States. The Surgeaon General is automatically a member and chairs the committee. All members serve a 3 year term. Only one of these members needs to be a "practicing Physician or Health care professional". So only 1 of 18 members must be a Doctor or related health care professional. The others must represent " The membership of the Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall at least reflect providers, consumer representatives, employers, labor, health insurance issuers, experts in health care financing and delivery, experts in racial and ethnic disparities, experts in care for those with disabilities, representatives of relevant governmental agencies. " (5) PARTICIPATION.—The membership of the 24 Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall at least 25 reflect providers, consumer representatives, employ- 32 •HR 3200 IH 1 ers, labor, health insurance issuers, experts in health 2 care financing and delivery, experts in racial and 3 ethnic disparities, experts in care for those with dis4 abilities, representatives of relevant governmental 5 agencies. and at least one practicing physician or 6 other health professional and an expert on children’s 7 health and shall represent a balance among various 8 sectors of the health care system so that no single 9 sector unduly influences the recommendations of 10 such Committee. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf SEC. 123. HEALTH BENEFITS ADVISORY COMMITTEE. (a) ESTABLISHMENT.— (1) IN GENERAL.—There is established a private-public advisory committee which shall be a panel of medical and other experts to be known as the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced, and premium plans. (2) CHAIR.—The Surgeon General shall be a member and the chair of the Health Benefits Advisory Committee. (3) MEMBERSHIP.—The Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall be composed of the following members, in addition to the Surgeon General: (A) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by the President. (B) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by the Comptroller General of the United States in a manner similar to the manner in which the Comptroller General appoints members to the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission under section 1805(c) of the Social Security Act. (C) Such even number of members (not to exceed 8) who are Federal employees and officers, as the President may appoint. The membership of the Committee shall include one or more experts in scientific evidence and clinical practice of integrative health care services. Such initial appointments shall be made not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act. (4) TERMS.—Each member of the Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall serve a 3-year term on the Committee, except that the terms of the initial members shall be adjusted in order to provide for a staggered term of appointment for all such members. (5) PARTICIPATION.—The membership of the Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall at least reflect providers, employers, labor, health insurance issuers, experts in health care financing and delivery, experts in racial and ethnic disparities, experts in care for those with disabilities, representatives of relevant governmental agencies. and at least one practicing physician or other health professional and an expert on children’s health and shall represent a balance among various sectors of the health care system so that no single sector unduly influences the recommendations of such Committee. The membership of the Committee shall also include educated patients, consumer advocates, or both, who shall include persons who represent individuals affected by a specific disease or medical condition, are knowledgeable about the health care system, and have received training regarding health, medical, and scientific matters. http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-Reported-080309.PDF I found the last report on line, which is a bit different than the first Bill. It goes into a bit more detail in some areas.

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