RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 4:50:37 PM)

I am tired, can you point out the differences in the two for me. Damn this is a long bill, with a lot of areas that seem to need more definition of responsibilty and checks and balances. I do not want to see another Patriot Act (meaning a bill that is past for the supposed good of the country, but hardly anyone reads).

I scanned over it, and while some of the OP's copy of a letter may be extreme, I do not see any checks and balances from those extreme examples from occurring.



tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 5:04:01 PM)

Differences.... ok... hmmm...

1) there are more than 18 members. 
(3) MEMBERSHIP.—The Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall be composed
of the following members, in addition to the Surgeon General:
(A) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are
appointed by the President.
(B) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are
appointed by the Comptroller General of the United States in a manner
similar to the manner in which the Comptroller General appoints members
to the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission under section 1805(c) of the
Social Security Act.
(C) Such even number of members (not to exceed 8) who are Federal
employees and officers, as the President may appoint.
The membership of the Committee shall include one or more experts in scientific
evidence and clinical practice of integrative health care services. Such
initial appointments shall be made not later than 60 days after the date of the
enactment of this Act.
 
The part you posted referred to the 8 additional members, not the original 18.  And im getting the feeling from reading it that there may be more than just the 26 original members.
 
2) When you posted about participation, your list ended with the following....
 
experts in care for those with disabilities, representatives of relevant
governmental agencies.
 
but there is more after that.
 
and at least one practicing physician or other
health professional and an expert on children’s health and shall represent a balance
among various sectors of the health care system so that no single sector
unduly influences the recommendations of such Committee. The membership of
the Committee shall also include educated patients, consumer advocates, or
both, who shall include persons who represent individuals affected by a specific
disease or medical condition, are knowledgeable about the health care system,
and have received training regarding health, medical, and scientific matters.
 
Im tired as well, Master, does that help?



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 5:52:35 PM)

Yes that helps, and looking I did not highlight down far enough, so the one I read did have the additional areas that members could be. So out of 26, or 34 members only one needs to be a practicing Physician or other health professional? Wow. I would want everyone on the board to have Medical or Medical Administration experience.

I really believe all of this legislation is well intended, but I am not sure it has been thought through well enough. I would hate to see something passed with gaping holes, with the intent to fix those holes in the future, and then they never get fixed.



tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 5:57:04 PM)

So out of 26, or 34 members only one needs to be a practicing Physician or other health professional?

No Master, thats not how im reading it.  For example...

quote:


and at least one practicing physician or other
health professional and an expert on children’s health and shall represent a balance
among various sectors of the health care system so that no single sector
unduly influences the recommendations of such Committee.The membership of
the Committee shall also include educated patients, consumer advocates, or
both, who shall include persons who represent individuals affected by a specific
disease or medical condition, are knowledgeable about the health care system,
and have received training regarding health, medical, and scientific matters.




I see a whole lot of medical experience, Master.  One does not have to be a physician or nurse to have such.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 6:16:14 PM)

But what is mandatory? It shows who qualifies, but if a President got in that was very pro private insurance, couldn't all his appointees be medical cost weighted? I do not see anything that says there needs to be a certain number of anything represented, except "no single sector unduly influences". Now who determines unduly influences? Do you see what I mean? I would much prefer it state X number needs to be practicing physicians, of those practicing physicians one must be pediatric, another mental health, etc.. Then Y must have experience in medical administration and then designate out areas each must have some experience in.



tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 6:40:12 PM)

My response to you Master would be... shouldnt that have worked on that part of the bill when it was in committee instead of sending out dire warnings and scare tactics?  I would imagine the Attorney General would have alot of say in who is appointed though.

No one said this would be easy.  Nor is it something that we have had to deal with before.  But, its not any stretch at all to understand that if something isnt done, there will be no health care.

And, i wish to point out something that has not been addressed since all this started.  Baby boomers.  Thats about 80 million people.



Lorr47 -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 8:55:38 PM)

quote:

Actually, you aren't being lied to. You aren't even being talked to. This is a dog-whistle.



Outstanding!



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 9:42:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My response to you Master would be... shouldnt that have worked on that part of the bill when it was in committee instead of sending out dire warnings and scare tactics?  I would imagine the Attorney General would have alot of say in who is appointed though.


Concern is different than scare. Refrain from trying to guess my intent. I didn't see the Atty General mentioned, but I am sure he would be consulted. I am still worried about the wording in at least the portion of the bill I have read so far. Do you truly trust every administration from her till the end of the US to handle this approriately with so many open ended clauses?

quote:


No one said this would be easy.  Nor is it something that we have had to deal with before.  But, its not any stretch at all to understand that if something isnt done, there will be no health care.


Sorry but that comment is more of a scare tactic than anything I have mentioned. Of course there will be health care. Why rush something that is so very important to get right?

quote:


And, i wish to point out something that has not been addressed since all this started.  Baby boomers.  Thats about 80 million people.


I am missing your point. Many of those baby boomers will be retiring soon and when they do, they will be covered under Medicare, and a heavy load taken off their private insurance, since it will always be secondary when Medicare is in place.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/20/2009 10:05:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

The point you're making is important, and not one to be dismissed out of hand, but I just don't come to the same conclusion you do. The thing I keep going back to is that all these things that people who oppose health care reform keep warning us about for some reason just aren't problems in any of the other countries who already have government-run health care systems  - which is just about every other country on the planet at this point. Until somebody offers up a credible reason why all of this shit that doesn't go wrong in any of those countries is likely to go wrong here in our country, I'm really not going to be concerned about it. If you guys want me to believe there's a bogeyman under the bed, you're going to have to show him to me. Just telling me that he might be under there someday doesn't really mean much to me.


I don't think this bill (or the versions of it currently thrashing around the legislature) is a good bill and I wouldn't vote for it were I a member of Congress. We're not talking about some theoretical system or a system that has been implemented in some other country and fork-lifted over here in toto - a complete overhaul or redesign of the American health care system might well be a very good thing. That's not what this bill is.

Admittedly, it's still being worked on but there are a number of features that concern me:

First off, it's not a "health care reform" bill - no matter what they claim - it's a "health insurance reform" bill - there's no guarantee that it will improve or reform the quality of the health care you receive in any way - it's really just aimed at changing how it's paid for and who determines which claims are approved and which are denied. It's not the "single payer system" which the President wanted. It doesn't really restructure the health care or the health insurance industry. Effectively, it's looking to maintain the status quo of a system that has problems. If you're just going to tweak the existing system, there are better ways to do it than the mess that they've managed to fuss around with for the past six or seven months.

Secondly, I have issues with forcing people to pay for health insurance. I find the concept of taxing or fining someone who doesn't want health insurance abhorrent. (I also think that it's beyond the scope of the Federal government to do something like that and would likely require an Amendment, but that's a whole different arguement right there.)

Third, they don't have the money for it right now. There's a lot of hand-waving and smoke-blowing but the bottom line is that this bill is going to end up costing a great deal more than it delivers. Arguements as to "improved efficiency" and "cost savings" are purely rhetoric. I'm unaware of any government program that has come in under budget or achieved "efficiency savings" and judging by the performance of all the government's other health care programs, it's likely that this one could end up costing orders of magnitude more than expected. Over the past decade there have been numerous proposals t improve efficiency or reduce processing costs in the health insurance industry. I haven't been able to find any of them in the versions of the bill I've looked through (which, admittedly are months old - but how often can you read this stuff?). The way it looks to me, funding is going to be managed by increasing taxes, printing more money, and putting additional costs the insurance companies. Those costs are going to roll right down on the consumer - meaning insurance premiums will go up. It looks to me like we'll all end up paying more for, at best, the same amount of health care we're currently receiving and potentially quite a bit less. 

Fourth, the bill doesn't even start to take effect until 2013 and all the provisions won't be in place until 2019 (as I recall, I could be a year or two off here and there). What's the big rush to get a bill passed if it won't even do anything for five years? Scrap the whole thing and start over and this time draw up a solid bill that changes the underlying structure of the system, not a hodge-podge compromise bill that no one is happy with. This reminds me of all the chatter around the "stimulus bill" - how important it was, how vital it was to get it passed - and then it turned out that most of it didn't even begin to take effect until a year later.

I personally don't particularly care about the typical complaints brought against the bill - such as unisured emergency room visits and providing health insurance to illegal aliens. Last time I looked (I can probably find the link if you're really curious), the two together add up to something like 1% of all health care costs nationwide. I'm willing to sacrifice that 1% in the interests of helping those who desperately need medical attention no matter who they are or where they're from.

I find it particularly horrifying that Medicare is being compared favorably to what will result from this bill being passed. Less than two years ago Medicare was being flogged for being a fiscal nightmare that was going to bankrupt the government in a few short years. The AMA survey of medical insurance providers in 2008 found the Medicare has a higher rejection rate and takes longer to process a claim than any major insurance provider. I fear what they're going to replace it with. I have no faith that it will be any better and, in fact, I am almost certain it will be much worse.

The article listing the AMA survey and its results is here:

http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/3643-amas-report-card-targets-health-plans-performance#

The actual survey itself is here:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/368/reportcard.pdf

I think the only reason that this bill has the momentum it has is that politically it's impossible for the people who put it together and pushed so hard for it not to deliver something, anything, no matter how bungled it is.

I suppose the bottom line is - who do you trust? Who do you believe? I don't care what they're saying on FOX or MSNBC, I don't watch any televised news program so I have no idea who is for or against it or what their arguements are. The real issue is - do you trust the people in Congress who will be designing this bill, and the people they will appoint to sit on these panels and commissions? I don't. These are the same people who have a history of decades of scandals and corruption involving being bought by the industries they're supposed to be regulating - the industry doesn't even matter - it could be oil or finance or energy or farming. I think the last thing we need is to let them have more control of any industry.

I guess it's a matter of faith. I don't have the faith. If someone else does, than I guess supporting this bill makes sense.



tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 1:57:13 AM)

quote:

Concern is different than scare. Refrain from trying to guess my intent. I didn't see the Atty General mentioned, but I am sure he would be consulted. I am still worried about the wording in at least the portion of the bill I have read so far. Do you truly trust every administration from her till the end of the US to handle this approriately with so many open ended clauses?


First, Master, the scare tactics were not by you, but by those in power in congress.  screams of death panels still echo.  And i mispoke Master, i meant the surgeon general, not the attorney general.

second, im withdrawling from these discussions.  it suddenly hit me how many people have not read this plan, how many have allowed themselves to be lead in what they should believe, and there is no way to have a discourse with people who simply follow a path because its what they are told.

i reread the Op's email, and i found nothing but smoke and mirrors.  no substance, even the links didnt work.  i didnt agree with the party that this bill went far enough.  it didnt, even in its conception.  i personally would love to see the insurance companies dismantled and a system moved in like canada has.

someone mentioned medicare being"fiscally unsound".  lol... when it adds another 80 million baby boomers, let me know how sound it will become under the current system. 

yes, Master, i understand you didnt get my point about baby boomers.  does anyone really think medicare, as its set up now, can support that kind of influx?  i caught something on the news... and im in alot of pain right now or i would remember where... about how insurance rates are going up, dramatically, yet again.

quote:

I suppose the bottom line is - who do you trust? Who do you believe? I don't care what they're saying on FOX or MSNBC, I don't watch any televised news program so I have no idea who is for or against it or what their arguements are. The real issue is - do you trust the people in Congress who will be designing this bill, and the people they will appoint to sit on these panels and commissions? I don't. These are the same people who have a history of decades of scandals and corruption involving being bought by the industries they're supposed to be regulating - the industry doesn't even matter - it could be oil or finance or energy or farming. I think the last thing we need is to let them have more control of any industry.


This would be my bottom line too.  We need to get everyone OUT of health care who doesnt belong.  and, sorry, a for profit-company does NOT belong in the Dr office with me.  That was the biddest mistake we ever made.



thishereboi -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 4:31:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:


First, Master, the scare tactics were not by you, but by those in power in congress.  screams of death panels still echo.  And i mispoke Master, i meant the surgeon general, not the attorney general.



I thought the democrats were the power in congress? So why can't they get anything passed? Oh yea, that's right, it's all those nasty republicans blocking them.

Maybe once the democrats take back the majority...oh wait...never mind.



rulemylife -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 5:01:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I thought the democrats were the power in congress? So why can't they get anything passed? Oh yea, that's right, it's all those nasty republicans blocking them.

Maybe once the democrats take back the majority...oh wait...never mind.



This is true, but look at it from another perspective.

The Republicans manage their party very tightly, there is no dissension allowed.

Whatever the party leadership says goes.  It is the only way you see bills that do not receive a single Republican vote.

Which I've found truly funny.  The party that fear-mongers about communism and government control has their elected members of Congress too fearful of repercussions from the party to vote their conscience.



thishereboi -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 5:16:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I thought the democrats were the power in congress? So why can't they get anything passed? Oh yea, that's right, it's all those nasty republicans blocking them.

Maybe once the democrats take back the majority...oh wait...never mind.



This is true, but look at it from another perspective.

The Republicans manage their party very tightly, there is no dissension allowed.

Whatever the party leadership says goes.  It is the only way you see bills that do not receive a single Republican vote.

Which I've found truly funny.  The party that fear-mongers about communism and government control has their elected members of Congress too fearful of repercussions from the party to vote their conscience.



What does that have to do with the fact that the democrats have the power? I used to hear about all the wonderful things the democrats could do, if the republicans would just lose the majority, well they have, so why am I not seeing anything getting done? Why are they still blaming everything on the right if they have the power?



JamieTgPa -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 5:28:34 AM)

I dont understand why we need this thing in the first place.  When I lost my health insurance (became self-employed), I went on the internet and did a search (try it for yourself, google "Health Insurance for Individuals"). 
 
Within  2 minutes or so I had plenty of plans to choose from, all relatively affordable.

I can not see why anyone would not have insurance, unless they just want someone ELSE to pay for it, and if thats what this is about, I am opposed.  We are all adults, and should all pay our own way.



rulemylife -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 5:31:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I thought the democrats were the power in congress? So why can't they get anything passed? Oh yea, that's right, it's all those nasty republicans blocking them.

Maybe once the democrats take back the majority...oh wait...never mind.



This is true, but look at it from another perspective.

The Republicans manage their party very tightly, there is no dissension allowed.

Whatever the party leadership says goes.  It is the only way you see bills that do not receive a single Republican vote.

Which I've found truly funny.  The party that fear-mongers about communism and government control has their elected members of Congress too fearful of repercussions from the party to vote their conscience.



What does that have to do with the fact that the democrats have the power? I used to hear about all the wonderful things the democrats could do, if the republicans would just lose the majority, well they have, so why am I not seeing anything getting done? Why are they still blaming everything on the right if they have the power?



It has to do with it because the Democrats are a fractious party.

You don't have a liberal equivalent of the conservative blue dog Democrats in the Republican Party.



Sanity -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 6:19:02 AM)



This appears to be the most appropriate thread for this article:


quote:


Grassley Warns HHS Web Site May Be ‘Propaganda’


Senate Finance ranking member Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) is raising concerns that a Department of Health and Human Services Web site that urges visitors to send an e-mail to President Barack Obama praising his health care reform plan may violate rules against government-funded propaganda.


The Web page is accessed through a “state your support” button featured prominently on the HHS Web site and carries a disclaimer that the Web site is maintained by HHS.In a letter sent to HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius Tuesday, Grassley warned that “any possible misuse of appropriated funds by the executive branch to engage in publicity or propaganda in support of an Administration priority is a matter that must be investigated and taken seriously,” noting that in 2005 Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) argued that “the use of official funds for similar activities were 'underhanded tactics' and that these tactics 'are not worthy of our great democracy.'”


http://www.rollcall.com/news/39730-1.html


The taxpayer funded web page in question:

http://www.healthreform.gov/support.html



tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 6:53:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

First, Master, the scare tactics were not by you, but by those in power in congress.  screams of death panels still echo.  And i mispoke Master, i meant the surgeon general, not the attorney general.



I thought the democrats were the power in congress? So why can't they get anything passed? Oh yea, that's right, it's all those nasty republicans blocking them.

Maybe once the democrats take back the majority...oh wait...never mind.



While i know its a concept that may be alien to those who enjoy the republican party way of doing things, the democrats dont require blind obedience from their members.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 7:08:37 AM)

1) Rates often vary from state to state.

2) Cost of living varies across the country.

3) Combine the above 2 factors and what is affordable to you, may not be affordable to all.

There are many people who work hard, pay bills, raise a family, and may not make enough, or barely make enough to get insurance. So there is a great need for something to be done. I believe there are other ways to get ot it, but the current bills being proposed seemed to be what the politicians have sold a majority of the US on.

All of this being said, to me the best effort I can do is point out flaws and offer suggestions, many of which I compile and send to my representatives.

Not everyone that cannot afford insurance wants others to pay for it, that statement you made is pretty ridiculous.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JamieTgPa

I dont understand why we need this thing in the first place.  When I lost my health insurance (became self-employed), I went on the internet and did a search (try it for yourself, google "Health Insurance for Individuals"). 
 
Within  2 minutes or so I had plenty of plans to choose from, all relatively affordable.

I can not see why anyone would not have insurance, unless they just want someone ELSE to pay for it, and if thats what this is about, I am opposed.  We are all adults, and should all pay our own way.



thishereboi -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 7:16:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

First, Master, the scare tactics were not by you, but by those in power in congress.  screams of death panels still echo.  And i mispoke Master, i meant the surgeon general, not the attorney general.



I thought the democrats were the power in congress? So why can't they get anything passed? Oh yea, that's right, it's all those nasty republicans blocking them.

Maybe once the democrats take back the majority...oh wait...never mind.



While i know its a concept that may be alien to those who enjoy the republican party way of doing things, the democrats dont require blind obedience from their members.


Republicans don't either. Now I can understand that it is much easier to blame the other guy, but wouldn't it be more productive of the democrats who have the power to actually get something done instead.



DomKen -> RE: Health Care Reform and Your (Loss of) Rights (10/21/2009 12:25:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JamieTgPa

I dont understand why we need this thing in the first place.  When I lost my health insurance (became self-employed), I went on the internet and did a search (try it for yourself, google "Health Insurance for Individuals"). 
 
Within  2 minutes or so I had plenty of plans to choose from, all relatively affordable.

I can not see why anyone would not have insurance, unless they just want someone ELSE to pay for it, and if thats what this is about, I am opposed.  We are all adults, and should all pay our own way.

A quick check of policies available to me in Illinois:
The cheapest is $70/moth but has a 10k deductible. essentially a catstrophic care policy. Not what I want at 42 years old.

The cheapest remotely reasonable deductible plan is $122/moth but includes a 20% copay. Which is sort of the worst of both worlds. Still fairly steep out of pocket expenses before the insurance covers anything and paying 1 dollar in 5 means potential bankruptcy in case of any major illness.

So I look a little more and finally found a plan that is what I would consider the minimum for me. $152/month with a 3k deductiple but no copays and a decent prescription plan. $1824 a year for single coverage is somthing I can afford but it is easy to see that someone making 30k a year or less might not be so sanguine.

However running a search for a married couple with a 10 year old boy comes up with some startling prices. The same plan, 3k deductible, no copay and an RX plan, is $422/moth. That's $5064/year. Even at $70k/year that starts becoming a huge chunk of annual take home, well in excess of 10% of after tax income.

BTW none of the plans I looked at included dental or vision which you'd also need to go out into the marketplace and acquire. What percentage of a family's income should go to heath care costs before it is too much? I'd suggest that 10% is too much but it is clear that full coverage for a family of 3 would exceed 20% for a family with a pre tax income of $70k/year.



Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875