Punishment Dynamics

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DavanKael -> Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 9:07:27 PM)
The idea of being punished appears to be a common bdsm theme. The applications to/for/by people vary widely. Some implement a punishment dynamic for poor behavior. Others use it in a play sense. While I understand and can readily groove with it in a play sense, as behavior modification, being punished physically or via deprivation, etc. is something that would cause me to distance from rather than invest in a relationship (Actually, I'd leave). This isn't a pressing life issue, I am introducing the thread as a point of discussion. Davan

chiaThePet -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 9:29:40 PM)
No more wire hangers. chia* (the pet)

DavanKael -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 9:37:06 PM)
Lol, hi Chia. :> Davan

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 9:39:59 PM)
My boy and I don't have a punishment dynamic, and we're well matched in that regard. I require a willfully obedient slave, and that's what he needs and desires to be. So he is. We fit together. The "fun" or "play" punishment you reference in your OP is anything but a punishment dynamic. "Funishment" yes- we will partake of it for our mutual enjoyment and fulfillment. But it will never involve true punishment. True punishment just isn't needed or desired, by us. We get off on the fun stuff: control, obedience, an owner/slave dynamic, humiliation, objectification, cuffs and chains, speech, eye and movement restrictions, invasive procedures.... YUM. That's just how we roll.

Elipsis -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 9:42:29 PM)
It sounds like you're trying to draw a distinction between actual punishment and "punishment" used for play... In trying to think of a good answer to your question... actually nevermind you didn't ask a question but in thinking about it I ran into something... so now I'm going to ask a paradoxical question and I'd like to hear opinions on this because it's something I don't have an answer to. If a girl tells you she "wants to be punished when she gets out of line" or some such thing... and then she does something that you (and she?) would consider out of line... what exactly do you do or how precisely do you go about punishing someone who already told you that they desire to be punished. If you're giving someone what they told you they want, how is that a punishment? Conversely, as DavanKael alluded to... if you actually do something to them that they don't truly want than won't they just be unhappy and then leave?

DavanKael -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 9:58:33 PM)
Lol, I didn't allude to it, I straight-out said I would leave. I'd leave after taking a baseball bat to 'em while they were sleeping if they placed an unkind hand on me. I take pride in service when it is something that I am offering another and there's never been an instance that involved correction in an active dynamic but if there were, a conversation would be more useful than <insert physical punishment>. DreamerDreaming, yes, funishment is way different than punitive dynamics. I suspect that most people who say they want punishment actually mean funishment and I also question the efficacy of actual physical punishment. Davan

Elipsis -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 10:02:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DavanKael Lol, I didn't allude to i I straight-out said I would leave. I'd leave after taking a baseball bat 'em while they were sleeping if they placean unkind hand on me. Ok right... but by straight-out saying that you would leave you alluded to the larger issue that many submissives (who aren't you) would also leave. So yes by directly addressing your specific issue and feelings you indirectly addressed a more broad issue... but nevermind the semantics or I'll be compelled to keep arguing about it.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 10:13:23 PM)
The Odd thing is how often this comes up. I am of the school of thought if you have to Punish then there is something wrong on a deeper level. I say I expect this and that expectation is not met there is One of Four things happening. I failed to properly explain my desire. I failed to offer a reasonable amount of time to have my expectation met. I failed to understand the limitations of the person I was placing my expectations on. They don't give a shit and choose not to meet my expectations. In this you see that most of the time it is something I am doing wrong and I will take all those into account before I make the decision of what I am going to do. Now PHunishment ("Funishment") is a comepletely different thing entirely the whole purpose is to turn the act of punishment into the erotic. It is completely fine and can have value in a relationship. I find the biggest problem is when people want to have BOTH and don't understand why one or the other isn't working the way they want it to. If you thin the line between what is okay with what is not you have to accept when someone is left confused. Steel

sweetobedience1 -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 10:17:44 PM)
Some people know they need punishment to stay in line but don't enjoy it. I'm like that. I'm not independent, and I'm very emotional. Physical or emotional (real) punishment truly upsets me and actually makes me a better person. I do like light spankings and some slapping in play but nothing more. (Oh, role playing, water sports, and bondage/ restriction too, but none of that hurts) I would not be an ideal fit for someone wanting just hardcore BDSM play. After I am with someone, they may occasionally make me have hurtful, hard spankings for their enjoyment, but that person would not be a match for me if they wanted to do this only. I am looking for a "Daddy"-type. I know I need direction because I'm immature and weak.

Elipsis -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 10:24:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetobedience1 Physical or emotional (real) punishment truly upsets me and actually makes me a better person Could you explain this in more detail to me? What exactly would you consider "physical or emotional (real) punishment" since it isn't the things that you described below as play?

Hierodule -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 10:51:40 PM)
Corporal punishment works as a behavior modifier for me because I am not a masochist. I slip up sometimes. When I slip up I get whipped with a belt. The tasks he gives me aren't always for his benefit some of them are for me only, like a keeping consistent bedtime . I'm also a big procrastinator can be lazy and get stuck on negative thinking. These traits are hard to overcome without a kick in the ass (no pun intended) I try harder to do the things he asks me because I don't really "like" I physical feeling of the belt hitting my flesh. I only like the fact that he is punishing me becasue I deserve it and becasue I want to improve. He HAS to tie me down when he belt-whips me. If he doesn't I WILL try to escape. My fight or flight reaction is that strong. It makes bondage more meaningful to us knowing that without it I would be running all over the house trying to get away from him. My mind my heart and my soul want him to whip me but my body just can't stand it. But i love it. I'm sure most would hate this dynamic but it works for us. he likes a little fight and I do what I must to please him because I love him AND fear the belt. It works that way in our Daddy girl play too. Its almost consensual domestic violence. Does that make us 50s household? I don't know. All I know is I have never been happier.

RUaPhdStudent -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 11:11:05 PM)
My girl sometimes wears a remote control shock collar (modified as a belt) around her waist with the electrodes near her inner thighs. At the same time, she'll have a remote control vibrator inside of her. Both devices have multiple power settings and we never go out of the lower ones (discreteness is key). We use this setup around the house and infrequently in social situations. A quick zap lets her know when she's speaking out of turn or slouching; a low, sustained vibe keeps her by my side and practically begging for a few seconds of more powerful vibrations. We own a flogger and used it once after reading a few quick Google entries on how to use it. She didn't like it. I had her try it on me, and I didn't like it either. Now we've got a wasted flogger. This is the only punishment we engage in, and it's definitely funishment.

Falkenstein -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/19/2009 11:47:59 PM)
Steel, I love the expression funishment or phunishment! As for real punishing in real life, I do not like the idea at all. When I have an issue with a behavior, I either ignore it, or the whole person, which is possibly a strong form of punishment, but keeps my blood pressure where it should be. Otherwise simply talking to the woman/girl usually achieves wonders. If it is something instinctive or not easily controllable, like bad table manners, it can be included in a funishment, which has the advantage of taking the stigma out of it. Be seeing you Henry

Hierodule -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 12:33:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DavanKael I'd leave after taking a baseball bat 'em while they were sleeping if they placean unkind hand on me. The hand that punishes is not always unkind When I make a mistake He tells me what I did wrong and tells me I will be punished. Then maybe that day or a day or two later ,when we both have enough time to really commit to a serious session and after care he says "its time for your punishment for doing so and so the other day." And I submit to being bound and whipped. Once he used a particularly nasty antenna instead of the belt he usually uses. Believe me when I tell you, that antenna still makes me cringe. But it wasn't raised unkindly. If he ever came at me in anger and raised his hand to me, yes, I would leave. Any sane woman would.

ranja -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 1:46:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RUaPhdStudent My girl sometimes wears a remote control shock collar (modified as a belt) around her waist with the electrodes near her inner thighs. At the same time, she'll have a remote control vibrator inside of her. Both devices have multiple power settings and we never go out of the lower ones (discreteness is key). We use this setup around the house and infrequently in social situations. A quick zap lets her know when she's speaking out of turn or slouching; a low, sustained vibe keeps her by my side and practically begging for a few seconds of more powerful vibrations. This is the only punishment we engage in, and it's definitely funishment. hot hot hot... I'm gonna suggest this to MH... He would sure like this... We also use the flogger... that certainly is not wasted on me either wooden spoons, plastic rulers, sharp pricky things... all good and He pinches, slaps or pushes me as He sees fit... sometimes He does it just because He can and sometimes He does it to improve my behaviour... and it works a treat we do all this stuff for sexual reasons too... and it does not confuse us at all...

LadyPact -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 2:34:06 AM)
Technically, I do have a punishment dynamic. I've punished clip exactly two times in two and a half years. Both times, it was due to a situation that I would not tolerate and the punishment was not corporal. In Steel's answer above, none of those things actually applied. It wasn't that clip didn't give a shit or that I hadn't communicated properly. I had said what I meant, but clip had not taken the severity of My words literally. In one case in particular, he had thought there was an exception to the rule, didn't consult Me to see if that was the case, and made the wrong judgment call. Ergo, he got the consequences. Punishment tends to be a last resort for Me. By that, I mean it is an issue serious enough that if it continues after good communication, the behavior is leading to the road to the end of the dynamic. There are obviously steps that happen before it comes to that. If something gets to the point where I have to punish, that is My sign that if it happens again, I'm finished. Something like willful disobedience (close to the 'don't give a shit' theory) is a punishment situation. I'm not here to be involved in a constant power struggle. Someone either wants to submit or they don't. I'm not going to bang My head against the wall in a battle of wills all of the time. I have better things to do. I don't do pretend punishment. I play because I want to play. I'm a sadist and he's a masochist. We enjoy what we do. I don't need to trump up some infraction for us to have a good time.

DesFIP -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 4:19:09 AM)
In theory he can punish me. In actuality he doesn't simply because it doesn't work for me. I draw back from him, I become depressed and afraid of him, I stop talking to him. I respond much better to positive reinforcement and the occasional reminder. Beyond that, punishing me for an accident which I cannot control is not something I could accept. Punishing me for being human and occasionally forgetting an order is unfair. Willful disobedience? Refusing just to refuse or hurt him? I guess he could, but it sure wouldn't solve the problem. If I'm telling him in effect that I have withdrawn consent to him being in charge of me, then we have a problem a lot bigger than a twenty minute beating can cure.

IronBear -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 5:15:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DavanKael The idea of being punished appears to be a common bdsm theme. The applications to/for/by people vary widely. Some implement a punishment dynamic for poor behavior. Others use it in a play sense. While I understand and can readily groove with it in a play sense, as behavior modification, being punished physically or via deprivation, etc. is something that would cause me to distance from rather than invest in a relationship (Actually, I'd leave). This isn't a pressing life issue, I am introducing the thread as a point of discussion. Davan G'day Davan, Enjoyable post. Lets leave the "Play Punishment" out of the equation for 'tis only play after all and often enough I'll warrant the sub/slave wants her arse walloped. Moving on to punishment for infractions which is what punishment is for generally speaking; To limit punishment to some form of tedious duty or some form of physical punishment like spanking, caning or whipping would be a gross mistake. Punishment can be all of those and it can also be something like writing lines, corner time or re-training. For any infraction, I believe in evaluating both the seriousness and the cause. If the error was a mistake then possible re-training on his or her time would seem to be appropriate. Thus in a long term and especially 24/7 and TPE relationships, I see it as being healthy to establish a punishment or corrective dynamic. I am a great believer that any punishment should fit the infraction and be appropriate with the view or correcting and trying to ensure that there is no repeat offence. quote: ORIGINAL: Elipsis It sounds like you're trying to draw a distinction between actual punishment and "punishment" used for play... In trying to think of a good answer to your question... actually nevermind you didn't ask a question but in thinking about it I ran into something... so now I'm going to ask a paradoxical question and I'd like to hear opinions on this because it's something I don't have an answer to. If a girl tells you she "wants to be punished when she gets out of line" or some such thing... and then she does something that you (and she?) would consider out of line... what exactly do you do or how precisely do you go about punishing someone who already told you that they desire to be punished. If you're giving someone what they told you they want, how is that a punishment? Conversely, as DavanKael alluded to... if you actually do something to them that they don't truly want than won't they just be unhappy and then leave? G'day Elipsis, I know girls who will tell a new master or Dominant that she expect to be punished if she commits an offence. In some cases this is a hint that she may deliberately make mistakes to be punished (In this case I'd be grabbing her by the short and curlies and explaining that we can do punishment games if she earns them by her being exemplary.behaviour). On the other hand if her comment is simply an indication that she expects not to be allowed to make mistakes and wants her new Master to take a strict control over her, I see this as just being open and honest which I would appreciate. I'm not suire Elipsis, what you experience with slaves in a hard M/s dynamic is (Gor included here), but from my own experience I can say that the two worst forms of punishment is knowing that she/he has been found displeasing and not being allowed to speak to the Master for a period.

agirl -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 5:20:59 AM)
I've lived for years in a relationship that includes penalties of a physical kind. Cause and effect. You do this/I do that. They are metred out quickly and they are severe. He's never been disappointed in me, I don't have any feelings of resentment, I've never been made to feel badly about myself and he doesn't feel badly about me. I know what to expect if I breach certain regulations......the penalties aren't a mystery that are sprung on me. I tend to avoid having to pay a penalty almost all of the time as they really aren't remotely pleasant. agirl

ncbabe -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 5:22:21 AM)
I do not respond well to punishment, like DesFIP I tend to withdraw and get depressed. I think for this reason I am rarely punished. If I act out of line or do something wrong, a lengthy discussion follows until he is satisfied I fully understand what I should have done. At this point I usually feel so regretful and ashamed of my behaviour that punishment is not necessary. However, if he decided that it was still necessary I would accept it and grow from it.

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