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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 10:13:36 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Its not a wilderness or a national park, Panda. The vast public lands of this nation are supposed to be for the enjoyment and use of the people.


That doesn't mean that anyone who wants to can use them any way they want anytime they want. Come on. The Forest Service is charged with maintaining the land, acting as custodian on behalf of the entire country. That means they need to approve any structures that are built on Forest Service lands. If it's a good idea, they'll usually approve it, but you need to go through channels so they can ensure it's done in accordance with their guidelines and regulations - the same as any other piece of land anywhere in the civilized world.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
And it appears that the only reason for the Forest Service to interfere with the people's use and enjoyment of the land in question is that a certain religious group views them as sinners fornicating in their holy water. Drinking beer, and smoking (gasp!) reefers.


No, it appears that that's the conclusion you choose to make up because it gives you something to rant about.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Those on here calling the constructs in question buildings are mistaken, these are little retaining walls meant only to keep pools of water in so that people can enjoy the relaxing hot springs better. The only theory I've heard that makes any sense is that the Forest Service plans on building a pay site there because the King essentially wants control, ownership, as well as revenue and that the religious concerns of the tribes are just a pretense.



The fact that that ludicrous "theory" even makes any sense at all to you - much less is the only theory that makes sense to you - speaks volumes about why there's no point in even trying to discuss it with you. You've constructed your usual paranoid "Big Brother" conspiracy fantasy to explain what everyone else sees as a relatively simple and straightforward situation, and an entire shipload of dynamite won't blast you loose from it. So just keep on believing what you want to believe, and working yourself up into as much is a frothmouthed frenzy as you need to in order to feel right about the world.


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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 10:50:04 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Easy, Panda. Take a few deep breaths. I'm not arguing that there was nothing wrong with what the guy did anyway, I'm arguing that there is no reason to tear them out.

Whats done is done.

And if "Big Brother" is nothing to worry about why can't I go relax in these lovely hot springs. Who is this ass hole from the government who is so determined to fuck them all up. And why...?




< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/23/2009 11:03:28 AM >

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:03:59 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Bottom line on this folks, is someone built something on public land.  that is land that you own and I won and everyone else owns.  I mean if you had a farm and someone built something that he and others thought was nice on YOUR north 40, You would be down there having it torn down in a heartbeat and tell the idiot to never come back.  Aesthetics has nothing to do with it.  It's the fact that he built something on land that isnt only his.

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:04:00 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Easy, Panda. Take a few deep breaths. I'm not arguing that there was nothing wrong with what the guy did anyway, I'm arguing that there is no reason to tear them out.

Whats done is done.





That's not all that you're saying. You're also complaining that the Federal Government is giving preferential treatment to native Americans, and suggesting that the reason they're doing it is "that the Forest Service plans on building a pay site there because the King essentially wants control, ownership, as well as revenue and that the religious concerns of the tribes are just a pretense." If you don't want people responding to those theories, don't include them as part of your argument.


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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:08:38 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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And he got his 40 lashes for doing us this public service. He should have got a permit but he didn't. But he has been punished.

Now we should be able to enjoy the fruits of his labors, as there is absolutely no reason to destroy them. Its land that nobody owns, and the Forest Service is taking away rights and freedoms that the government should have no power over. People have been making roads and minor improvements on public lands since time began, and its arguable that the Federal Government has no right to maintain control over what should be state or county lands to begin with.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Bottom line on this folks, is someone built something on public land.  that is land that you own and I won and everyone else owns.  I mean if you had a farm and someone built something that he and others thought was nice on YOUR north 40, You would be down there having it torn down in a heartbeat and tell the idiot to never come back.  Aesthetics has nothing to do with it.  It's the fact that he built something on land that isnt only his.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/23/2009 11:20:27 AM >

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:11:08 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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The government is giving preferential treatment to this religious group. What if these were Mormons complaining that people were sinning in a secluded area? The Forest Service would laugh at them, and rightfully so.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda


That's not all that you're saying. You're also complaining that the Federal Government is giving preferential treatment to native Americans, and suggesting that the reason they're doing it is "that the Forest Service plans on building a pay site there because the King essentially wants control, ownership, as well as revenue and that the religious concerns of the tribes are just a pretense." If you don't want people responding to those theories, don't include them as part of your argument.



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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:16:36 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		so, Sanity, if we come over your way and bulldoze your house because it would give the neighbor kids more room to play, you're good with that?

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:19:18 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And if "Big Brother" is nothing to worry about why can't I go relax in these lovely hot springs. Who is this ass hole from the government who is so determined to fuck them all up. And why...?





Who's stopping you? Did they build a fence? Have they put up a sign? Is there a mine field now, keeping you out? You want to go soak in the springs, go soak in the  springs.

You remind me of that guy in Arizona about 20 years ago who decided to "improve" a whitewater rafting area by dynamiting the rocks so it was easier to raft it. What's next - are you going to want to build walls around the hot springs in Yellowstone to "improve" them too? You, and a relatively small percentage of people, feel that building walls around the springs is an improvement. Most other people - including, apparently, the Forest Service - feels that the negative impact it has on the natural beauty of the springs is more of a detriment than an improvement. Whine about it all you like, but you're outvoted.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:21:56 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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These are public lands, mnottertail. Its not someones house we're discussing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

so, Sanity, if we come over your way and bulldoze your house because it would give the neighbor kids more room to play, you're good with that?


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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:22:18 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


And he got his 40 lashes for doing us this public service. He should have got a permit but he didn't. But he has been punished.

Now we should be able to enjoy the fruits of his labors, as there is absolutely no reason to destroy them.


I'm going to type reallllllllly slowly.

The reason they are being torn down is because they were... not... supposed... to... be... there... in... the... first... place.

Did you understand it that time?


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:23:39 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		they are my public lands as well as that guys, so he gotta ask nice and proper, before he do that.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:26:43 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
You're making strawman arguments, as always. Again, I am not arguing that what he did was legal, am I. I am not arguing in favor of destroying national parks or monuments...

Please. Stop arguing against your strawmen and instead address the actual points raised in the thread...

The primary questions are

1. Why are the religious concerns even relevant?

and

2. Why destroy them now? What reason could there possibly be.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Who's stopping you? Did they build a fence? Have they put up a sign? Is there a mine field now, keeping you out? You want to go soak in the springs, go soak in the  springs.

You remind me of that guy in Arizona about 20 years ago who decided to "improve" a whitewater rafting area by dynamiting the rocks so it was easier to raft it. What's next - are you going to want to build walls around the hot springs in Yellowstone to "improve" them too? You, and a relatively small percentage of people, feel that building walls around the springs is an improvement. Most other people - including, apparently, the Forest Service - feels that the negative impact it has on the natural beauty of the springs is more of a detriment than an improvement. Whine about it all you like, but you're outvoted.



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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:28:10 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		I...

am..

not..

arguing..

that.

Get it?


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
I'm going to type reallllllllly slowly.

The reason they are being torn down is because they were... not... supposed... to... be... there... in... the... first... place.

Did you understand it that time?



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:29:15 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
I believe thats been established.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

they are my public lands as well as that guys, so he gotta ask nice and proper, before he do that.


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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:31:35 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		then that is why they come down, let him ask nice and proper like any of us would have to, and religious concerns are not the central issue here, just a further buttressing of the reasons to remove them.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:31:40 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


You're making strawman arguments, as always. Again, I am not arguing that what he did was legal, am I. I am not arguing in favor of destroying national parks or monuments...

Please. Stop arguing against your strawmen and instead address the actual points raised in the thread...

The primary questions are

1. Why are the religious concerns even relevant?


Why even bring up this red herring unless you're just looking for another excuse to rant against people who think differently than you?


quote:

The man who built the pools radically - and illegally - altered the landscape and broke federal land-use regulations and they will be removed sometime this fall, Boise National Forest officials said.


Sounds pretty simple to me.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
2. Why destroy them now? What reason could there possibly be.



How many times does that need to be answered before you understand it?


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:33:30 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I...

am..

not..

arguing..

that.

Get it?


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
I'm going to type reallllllllly slowly.

The reason they are being torn down is because they were... not... supposed... to... be... there... in... the... first... place.

Did you understand it that time?




This is mind-boggling, even for you. You acknowledge that they are not supposed to be there, but can not comprehend why something that  is not supposed to be there has to be removed?

Do you even read what you write?


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:35:16 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Is this a real bad time to bring up healthcare reform?

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:38:56 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Is this a real bad time to bring up healthcare reform?


No, let's go for it - can you think of any way to work Saul Alinsky into the discussion?


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 11:43:00 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		"Radicals must be resilient, adaptable to shifting political circumstances, and sensitive enough to the process of action and reaction to avoid being trapped by their own tactics and forced to travel a road not of their choosing."

Saul Alinski......

I think he would not oppose radically changing healtcare in this country, nor would he find any problem with forcing the guy to go get a fuckin permit and hold a hearing.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 40
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