Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 12:48:44 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		JESUS!!!!!!!

WE ARE ON the same side of the issue for once, or am I gonna get pumpkin papers?

LOL,

Alger Hiss

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to ModeratorEleven)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 12:50:34 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
This is kind of an upside down thread, but I've never been on XI's side of anything, that I know of.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

JESUS!!!!!!!

WE ARE ON the same side of the issue for once, or am I gonna get pumpkin papers?

LOL,

Alger Hiss


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 12:53:08 PM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


People enjoy them, ergo they should be there.

The only ones who seem to be complaining is the man, on behalf of a handful of religious extremists (which would include the Earth First! types).

I never thought I'd see the day that Liberals were arguing vehemently against Bohemian nature lovers on the behalf of some religious fundamentalists.

Its such a strange world sometimes...





There are others of us that do NOT enjoy them. Some of us prefer the natural beauty of the area. And there are others that enjoy hot springs but also enjoy a natural setting.

A few years ago I, an Idaho native, and a friend that enjoys hot springs spent a long weekend traveling around the various hot springs in central Idaho. While he enjoyed the hot springs, we both had a strong dislike of what had been done to the land at many of the hot springs locations. Most of the easily accessed springs have already had man-made alterations, often using natural material. But in many places things like old bath tubs had been moved to the locations and placed to catch the water so that these hot-springs nuts could have their comfort at the expense of making an eyesore that anyone happening onto the area has to experience. In many places pipes of various types had been used to re-route the water to make it more convenient for the hot springs fanatics. They looked more like dump sites rather than recreation areas.

Sure, some people might enjoy them...but not all of us, and it is OUR public lands just as much as it is yours. Ya want to soak in hot water? Buy a hot tub, or go to one of the dump sites and enjoy the bath tubs there, but illegally destroying the natural landscape of our national forests for the selfish enjoyment of a comparitive few should not be allowed, and the area in question should be returned to it's natural condition as much as possible.

And by the way, I don't know what you consider an "Earth First!" type...but I certainly don't consider myself to be one, and I'm definitely not a religious extremest or fundamentalist since I'm agnostic. I'm just a citizen that likes keeping some areas in it's natural state so that the beauty of it can be enjoyed by all...assuming they even have a sense of beauty.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 1:01:53 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		You know Sanity? Over here right now we're all (well, all for the most part), having a heck of a ding dong over a guy called Nick Griffin who is leader of the fascist British National Party. Picking and choosing creatively what facts will support his case is a favourite strategy of this individual, and it makes him look a proper fool when his "creativity" (some might call it deception) is revealed.

There is presenting the facts in a favourable light, and then there is deception. One is a valid strategy, the other is contemptuous of others.

E



_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 1:15:15 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
You want wilderness? In Idaho alone we have the 216,000-acre Sawtooth Wilderness, the 2.3 million acres of Central Idaho as the Frank Church-River of No Return Wilderness, the 1.28-million-acre Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness, the 206,000-acre Gospel Hump Wilderness, the Owyhee wilderness proposal, the Hells Canyon wilderness... as well as countless roadless areas. So what's to stop you from enjoying some of it, just get out there.

Why can't people enjoy the actual use of some of the lands that the Feds haven't locked up?


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 1:17:09 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
So if I fail to make your arguments for you, that makes me a fascist... 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You know Sanity? Over here right now we're all (well, all for the most part), having a heck of a ding dong over a guy called Nick Griffin who is leader of the fascist British National Party. Picking and choosing creatively what facts will support his case is a favourite strategy of this individual, and it makes him look a proper fool when his "creativity" (some might call it deception) is revealed.

There is presenting the facts in a favourable light, and then there is deception. One is a valid strategy, the other is contemptuous of others.

E




_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 1:28:17 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You know Sanity? Over here right now we're all (well, all for the most part), having a heck of a ding dong over a guy called Nick Griffin who is leader of the fascist British National Party. Picking and choosing creatively what facts will support his case is a favourite strategy of this individual, and it makes him look a proper fool when his "creativity" (some might call it deception) is revealed.


Being an ignorant Yank, I only know Nick Griffin from reading Andrew Sullivan in the Atlantic;
From this YouTube clip, he seems like a pretty hilarious chap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk&feature=player_embedded

Isn't he ripping off Steven Colbert's act, though?

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 1:55:41 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Is it the mountain air I wonder....... I cant think of anything else you have in common with Mr Griffin?

Meanwhile you might be interested to learn the said fascist uses the same argument technique - though he usually refines it to something like "I'm being misquoted and the media are out to get me".

And after multiple complaints against others of strawman arguments you resort to that too?

I'm sorry Sanity, but this isnt the first time youve come on here shouting and screaming about something only for it to be totally demolished once the actual facts, as opposed to those initially presented to define the debate, are revealed, and the agenda of the OP thereby laid bare.

Credibility is to be applauded - but in its absence integrity is a good thing.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 2:10:23 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
"Shouting and screaming"? 

You must have some truly fantastic ears to hear the written word.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 2:20:30 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Thank you, Igor, for being one of the very few on here who are discussing the topic rather than immediately launching into some kind of a personal attack.

People from Idaho rule, dude.



quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
There are others of us that do NOT enjoy them. Some of us prefer the natural beauty of the area. And there are others that enjoy hot springs but also enjoy a natural setting.

A few years ago I, an Idaho native, and a friend that enjoys hot springs spent a long weekend traveling around the various hot springs in central Idaho. While he enjoyed the hot springs, we both had a strong dislike of what had been done to the land at many of the hot springs locations. Most of the easily accessed springs have already had man-made alterations, often using natural material. But in many places things like old bath tubs had been moved to the locations and placed to catch the water so that these hot-springs nuts could have their comfort at the expense of making an eyesore that anyone happening onto the area has to experience. In many places pipes of various types had been used to re-route the water to make it more convenient for the hot springs fanatics. They looked more like dump sites rather than recreation areas.

Sure, some people might enjoy them...but not all of us, and it is OUR public lands just as much as it is yours. Ya want to soak in hot water? Buy a hot tub, or go to one of the dump sites and enjoy the bath tubs there, but illegally destroying the natural landscape of our national forests for the selfish enjoyment of a comparitive few should not be allowed, and the area in question should be returned to it's natural condition as much as possible.

And by the way, I don't know what you consider an "Earth First!" type...but I certainly don't consider myself to be one, and I'm definitely not a religious extremest or fundamentalist since I'm agnostic. I'm just a citizen that likes keeping some areas in it's natural state so that the beauty of it can be enjoyed by all...assuming they even have a sense of beauty.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:02:46 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Your argument is worse. "Is not supposed to be there" sounds... well, worse. "Just because" or "Because I said" isn't an argument at all. The fact that people enjoy them is an argument. And again, you're building strawmen, no one is arguing for a go cart track or a motocross in a national park...


Actually, yeah. That's exactly what you're doing, even though that may not have dawned on you. Your stated position is that because some people enjoy it, it should be allowed. If that's the standard, then go-cart tracks and motocross courses are OK, too. Under your standard, there's no end to what people could build in a national forest or a national park, as long as it's something that some people would enjoy. That's why i called it a childish argument - it's self-centered, with no regard whatsoever for broader, longterm consequences, or anything else but the entertainment and enjoyment of the person making the argument.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:15:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Sanity

permits and inspections are required anytime something is built.  of course it will be taken down.  and i hope they rebuild.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:25:11 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Actually, yeah. That's exactly what you're doing, even though that may not have dawned on you. Your stated position is that because some people enjoy it, it should be allowed.


No, I said thats an argument. My stated position is that there is no good reason to destroy these beautiful cascading pools that folks enjoy.

quote:

If that's the standard, then go-cart tracks and motocross courses are OK, too. Under your standard, there's no end to what people could build in a national forest or a national park, as long as it's something that some people would enjoy.


Thats yet another strawman, thats not my standard at all. Its one you just made up.


quote:

That's why i called it a childish argument - it's self-centered, with no regard whatsoever for broader, longterm consequences, or anything else but the entertainment and enjoyment of the person making the argument.


No, you called it childish because you're probably angry or tired and you're having difficulty thinking of a real argument, and so you resorted to the much easier path of name calling and personal attacks.




_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:29:23 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
I wonder if the spirits will become angry when the Forest Service sets out to destroy this beautiful place where children and adults of all ages go to make the cliff walls of this magnificent canyon echo with their laughter and delight?


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Sanity

permits and inspections are required anytime something is built.  of course it will be taken down.  and i hope they rebuild.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:34:48 PM   
Wolf2Bear


Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		From reading the articles and then watching the video, it was stated that the builder of the pools also failed to consult with his chief and seek advice from his tribe's council. Now since that tract of land is considered sacred ground, doesn't it make sense that his tribe should be the ones to determine what is to be done with the pools?  Though he did violate the laws set down by the Federal government, he also failed to gain consent from his elders and that should take a higher priority.


_____________________________

~Resident Sadist Approved~

Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
I'm gonna work it 'til your totally blown

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:35:15 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		better than screams of terror when it comes tumbling down due to errors in building

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:39:55 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Actually, yeah. That's exactly what you're doing, even though that may not have dawned on you. Your stated position is that because some people enjoy it, it should be allowed.


No, I said thats an argument. My stated position is that there is no good reason to destroy these beautiful cascading pools that folks enjoy.

quote:

If that's the standard, then go-cart tracks and motocross courses are OK, too. Under your standard, there's no end to what people could build in a national forest or a national park, as long as it's something that some people would enjoy.


Thats yet another strawman, thats not my standard at all. Its one you just made up.


I'm going to take the high road, and instead of calling you a liar, give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that it's possible you don't remember anything that happened more than an hour ago.  Do you really think I don't know how to scroll back one page?

quote:

People enjoy them, ergo they should be there.


That's not an argument, that's your argument. That's what you said. Will there ever be a day that you have the simple integrity to own your own words? Or is that asking too much?

So. Your argument is that as long as people enjoy something, it should not be removed. If that's the standard, then I say again - nothing anyone builds on public land should be removed as long as people enjoy it. That's what you said. If you meant something else, you should have said something else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

That's why i called it a childish argument - it's self-centered, with no regard whatsoever for broader, longterm consequences, or anything else but the entertainment and enjoyment of the person making the argument.


No, you called it childish because you're probably angry or tired and you're having difficulty thinking of a real argument, and so you resorted to the much easier path of name calling and personal attacks.


And again with the whining self-pity and the making shit up. I never called you a name, and I never said you were childish - I said your argument is childish. Do you have even a shred of intellectual honesty or reading comprehension? I'm not angry or tired; I'm just calling you directly on what you're saying.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:44:02 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
They're not buildings, tazzy. Think of little kiddy pools. People use rocks to make pools like these all the time, wherever hot springs are found. The only differences are that this one guy spent a lot of time making a series of them cascading from one to the next, and he held the rocks together and held more water back with the use of mortar.

See the picture of me? That was shot on Federal  land, and theres a fairly large dam making the pool I was in, and that dam was probably started by Native Americans a very long time ago.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

better than screams of terror when it comes tumbling down due to errors in building


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:46:17 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Attack the topic, Panda. Not your fellow posters... you're being entirely too serious, and you're missing out on an awful lot of fun.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 3:52:22 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Well, they consider every hot spring in what were once their traditional lands sacred, and that's a lot of ground. Should we grant religious people the right to dictate to everyone else how we may act on Federal land? Their whole gripe seems to be real similar to what Christan fundies might say. They object because people have sex there, and drink there, and use drugs there.

But is that really a reason to destroy the pools and make the pool builders who have been pulling such rocks together since caveman day start over?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

From reading the articles and then watching the video, it was stated that the builder of the pools also failed to consult with his chief and seek advice from his tribe's council. Now since that tract of land is considered sacred ground, doesn't it make sense that his tribe should be the ones to determine what is to be done with the pools?  Though he did violate the laws set down by the Federal government, he also failed to gain consent from his elders and that should take a higher priority.



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Wolf2Bear)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109