RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds

RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 12:48:44 PM)
JESUS!!!!!!! WE ARE ON the same side of the issue for once, or am I gonna get pumpkin papers? LOL, Alger Hiss

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 12:50:34 PM)
This is kind of an upside down thread, but I've never been on XI's side of anything, that I know of. quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail JESUS!!!!!!! WE ARE ON the same side of the issue for once, or am I gonna get pumpkin papers? LOL, Alger Hiss

igor2003 -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 12:53:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity People enjoy them, ergo they should be there. The only ones who seem to be complaining is the man, on behalf of a handful of religious extremists (which would include the Earth First! types). I never thought I'd see the day that Liberals were arguing vehemently against Bohemian nature lovers on the behalf of some religious fundamentalists. Its such a strange world sometimes... There are others of us that do NOT enjoy them. Some of us prefer the natural beauty of the area. And there are others that enjoy hot springs but also enjoy a natural setting. A few years ago I, an Idaho native, and a friend that enjoys hot springs spent a long weekend traveling around the various hot springs in central Idaho. While he enjoyed the hot springs, we both had a strong dislike of what had been done to the land at many of the hot springs locations. Most of the easily accessed springs have already had man-made alterations, often using natural material. But in many places things like old bath tubs had been moved to the locations and placed to catch the water so that these hot-springs nuts could have their comfort at the expense of making an eyesore that anyone happening onto the area has to experience. In many places pipes of various types had been used to re-route the water to make it more convenient for the hot springs fanatics. They looked more like dump sites rather than recreation areas. Sure, some people might enjoy them...but not all of us, and it is OUR public lands just as much as it is yours. Ya want to soak in hot water? Buy a hot tub, or go to one of the dump sites and enjoy the bath tubs there, but illegally destroying the natural landscape of our national forests for the selfish enjoyment of a comparitive few should not be allowed, and the area in question should be returned to it's natural condition as much as possible. And by the way, I don't know what you consider an "Earth First!" type...but I certainly don't consider myself to be one, and I'm definitely not a religious extremest or fundamentalist since I'm agnostic. I'm just a citizen that likes keeping some areas in it's natural state so that the beauty of it can be enjoyed by all...assuming they even have a sense of beauty.

LadyEllen -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 1:01:53 PM)
You know Sanity? Over here right now we're all (well, all for the most part), having a heck of a ding dong over a guy called Nick Griffin who is leader of the fascist British National Party. Picking and choosing creatively what facts will support his case is a favourite strategy of this individual, and it makes him look a proper fool when his "creativity" (some might call it deception) is revealed. There is presenting the facts in a favourable light, and then there is deception. One is a valid strategy, the other is contemptuous of others. E

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 1:15:15 PM)
You want wilderness? In Idaho alone we have the 216,000-acre Sawtooth Wilderness, the 2.3 million acres of Central Idaho as the Frank Church-River of No Return Wilderness, the 1.28-million-acre Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness, the 206,000-acre Gospel Hump Wilderness, the Owyhee wilderness proposal, the Hells Canyon wilderness... as well as countless roadless areas. So what's to stop you from enjoying some of it, just get out there. Why can't people enjoy the actual use of some of the lands that the Feds haven't locked up?

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 1:17:09 PM)
So if I fail to make your arguments for you, that makes me a fascist... [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen You know Sanity? Over here right now we're all (well, all for the most part), having a heck of a ding dong over a guy called Nick Griffin who is leader of the fascist British National Party. Picking and choosing creatively what facts will support his case is a favourite strategy of this individual, and it makes him look a proper fool when his "creativity" (some might call it deception) is revealed. There is presenting the facts in a favourable light, and then there is deception. One is a valid strategy, the other is contemptuous of others. E

AnimusRex -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 1:28:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen You know Sanity? Over here right now we're all (well, all for the most part), having a heck of a ding dong over a guy called Nick Griffin who is leader of the fascist British National Party. Picking and choosing creatively what facts will support his case is a favourite strategy of this individual, and it makes him look a proper fool when his "creativity" (some might call it deception) is revealed. Being an ignorant Yank, I only know Nick Griffin from reading Andrew Sullivan in the Atlantic; From this YouTube clip, he seems like a pretty hilarious chap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk&feature=player_embedded Isn't he ripping off Steven Colbert's act, though?

LadyEllen -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 1:55:41 PM)
Is it the mountain air I wonder....... I cant think of anything else you have in common with Mr Griffin? Meanwhile you might be interested to learn the said fascist uses the same argument technique - though he usually refines it to something like "I'm being misquoted and the media are out to get me". And after multiple complaints against others of strawman arguments you resort to that too? I'm sorry Sanity, but this isnt the first time youve come on here shouting and screaming about something only for it to be totally demolished once the actual facts, as opposed to those initially presented to define the debate, are revealed, and the agenda of the OP thereby laid bare. Credibility is to be applauded - but in its absence integrity is a good thing. E

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 2:10:23 PM)
"Shouting and screaming"? [:D] You must have some truly fantastic ears to hear the written word.

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 2:20:30 PM)
Thank you, Igor, for being one of the very few on here who are discussing the topic rather than immediately launching into some kind of a personal attack. People from Idaho rule, dude. quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 There are others of us that do NOT enjoy them. Some of us prefer the natural beauty of the area. And there are others that enjoy hot springs but also enjoy a natural setting. A few years ago I, an Idaho native, and a friend that enjoys hot springs spent a long weekend traveling around the various hot springs in central Idaho. While he enjoyed the hot springs, we both had a strong dislike of what had been done to the land at many of the hot springs locations. Most of the easily accessed springs have already had man-made alterations, often using natural material. But in many places things like old bath tubs had been moved to the locations and placed to catch the water so that these hot-springs nuts could have their comfort at the expense of making an eyesore that anyone happening onto the area has to experience. In many places pipes of various types had been used to re-route the water to make it more convenient for the hot springs fanatics. They looked more like dump sites rather than recreation areas. Sure, some people might enjoy them...but not all of us, and it is OUR public lands just as much as it is yours. Ya want to soak in hot water? Buy a hot tub, or go to one of the dump sites and enjoy the bath tubs there, but illegally destroying the natural landscape of our national forests for the selfish enjoyment of a comparitive few should not be allowed, and the area in question should be returned to it's natural condition as much as possible. And by the way, I don't know what you consider an "Earth First!" type...but I certainly don't consider myself to be one, and I'm definitely not a religious extremest or fundamentalist since I'm agnostic. I'm just a citizen that likes keeping some areas in it's natural state so that the beauty of it can be enjoyed by all...assuming they even have a sense of beauty.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:02:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Your argument is worse. "Is not supposed to be there" sounds... well, worse. "Just because" or "Because I said" isn't an argument at all. The fact that people enjoy them is an argument. And again, you're building strawmen, no one is arguing for a go cart track or a motocross in a national park... Actually, yeah. That's exactly what you're doing, even though that may not have dawned on you. Your stated position is that because some people enjoy it, it should be allowed. If that's the standard, then go-cart tracks and motocross courses are OK, too. Under your standard, there's no end to what people could build in a national forest or a national park, as long as it's something that some people would enjoy. That's why i called it a childish argument - it's self-centered, with no regard whatsoever for broader, longterm consequences, or anything else but the entertainment and enjoyment of the person making the argument.

tazzygirl -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:15:20 PM)
Sanity permits and inspections are required anytime something is built. of course it will be taken down. and i hope they rebuild.

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:25:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda Actually, yeah. That's exactly what you're doing, even though that may not have dawned on you. Your stated position is that because some people enjoy it, it should be allowed. No, I said thats an argument. My stated position is that there is no good reason to destroy these beautiful cascading pools that folks enjoy. quote: If that's the standard, then go-cart tracks and motocross courses are OK, too. Under your standard, there's no end to what people could build in a national forest or a national park, as long as it's something that some people would enjoy. Thats yet another strawman, thats not my standard at all. Its one you just made up. quote: That's why i called it a childish argument - it's self-centered, with no regard whatsoever for broader, longterm consequences, or anything else but the entertainment and enjoyment of the person making the argument. No, you called it childish because you're probably angry or tired and you're having difficulty thinking of a real argument, and so you resorted to the much easier path of name calling and personal attacks.

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:29:23 PM)
I wonder if the spirits will become angry when the Forest Service sets out to destroy this beautiful place where children and adults of all ages go to make the cliff walls of this magnificent canyon echo with their laughter and delight? quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Sanity permits and inspections are required anytime something is built. of course it will be taken down. and i hope they rebuild.

Wolf2Bear -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:34:48 PM)
From reading the articles and then watching the video, it was stated that the builder of the pools also failed to consult with his chief and seek advice from his tribe's council. Now since that tract of land is considered sacred ground, doesn't it make sense that his tribe should be the ones to determine what is to be done with the pools? Though he did violate the laws set down by the Federal government, he also failed to gain consent from his elders and that should take a higher priority.

tazzygirl -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:35:15 PM)
better than screams of terror when it comes tumbling down due to errors in building

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:39:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda Actually, yeah. That's exactly what you're doing, even though that may not have dawned on you. Your stated position is that because some people enjoy it, it should be allowed. No, I said thats an argument. My stated position is that there is no good reason to destroy these beautiful cascading pools that folks enjoy. quote: If that's the standard, then go-cart tracks and motocross courses are OK, too. Under your standard, there's no end to what people could build in a national forest or a national park, as long as it's something that some people would enjoy. Thats yet another strawman, thats not my standard at all. Its one you just made up. I'm going to take the high road, and instead of calling you a liar, give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that it's possible you don't remember anything that happened more than an hour ago. Do you really think I don't know how to scroll back one page? quote: People enjoy them, ergo they should be there. That's not an argument, that's your argument. That's what you said. Will there ever be a day that you have the simple integrity to own your own words? Or is that asking too much? So. Your argument is that as long as people enjoy something, it should not be removed. If that's the standard, then I say again - nothing anyone builds on public land should be removed as long as people enjoy it. That's what you said. If you meant something else, you should have said something else. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: That's why i called it a childish argument - it's self-centered, with no regard whatsoever for broader, longterm consequences, or anything else but the entertainment and enjoyment of the person making the argument. No, you called it childish because you're probably angry or tired and you're having difficulty thinking of a real argument, and so you resorted to the much easier path of name calling and personal attacks. And again with the whining self-pity and the making shit up. I never called you a name, and I never said you were childish - I said your argument is childish. Do you have even a shred of intellectual honesty or reading comprehension? I'm not angry or tired; I'm just calling you directly on what you're saying.

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:44:02 PM)
They're not buildings, tazzy. Think of little kiddy pools. People use rocks to make pools like these all the time, wherever hot springs are found. The only differences are that this one guy spent a lot of time making a series of them cascading from one to the next, and he held the rocks together and held more water back with the use of mortar. See the picture of me? That was shot on Federal land, and theres a fairly large dam making the pool I was in, and that dam was probably started by Native Americans a very long time ago. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl better than screams of terror when it comes tumbling down due to errors in building

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:46:17 PM)
Attack the topic, Panda. Not your fellow posters... you're being entirely too serious, and you're missing out on an awful lot of fun.

Sanity -> RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds (10/23/2009 3:52:22 PM)
Well, they consider every hot spring in what were once their traditional lands sacred, and that's a lot of ground. Should we grant religious people the right to dictate to everyone else how we may act on Federal land? Their whole gripe seems to be real similar to what Christan fundies might say. They object because people have sex there, and drink there, and use drugs there. But is that really a reason to destroy the pools and make the pool builders who have been pulling such rocks together since caveman day start over? quote: ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear From reading the articles and then watching the video, it was stated that the builder of the pools also failed to consult with his chief and seek advice from his tribe's council. Now since that tract of land is considered sacred ground, doesn't it make sense that his tribe should be the ones to determine what is to be done with the pools? Though he did violate the laws set down by the Federal government, he also failed to gain consent from his elders and that should take a higher priority.

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