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RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 4:56:21 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

D = Do
I = I
L = Look
L = Like
I = I
G = Give
A = A
F = Fuck

If you pop over to You Tube and search for Kevin Bloody Wilson and then look for D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F., he wrote a song explaining it.. I'm going top print a D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. T-shirt for my self.. Oh, BTW when you are there take a listen to his "Amazing Weed" vid too it is tanfastic. 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 5:00:33 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 523
Joined: 7/30/2008
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quote:

i would consider this as someone who has invested the same time and energy in themselves. in the course of doing so they've gained leadership skills, had positions of authority, become well versed in human dynamics, have some understanding of psychology, the human body, leather history and culture, and the application of pain utilizing various techniques. in addition, i would expect that he communicates well, is an excellent listener, adept at behavioral conditioning, in control of his temperament, dependable, trustworthy, has integrity, displays confidence in his decision making, is acutely aware of the exchange he seeks and is capable of creating it, and most importantly has a desire to accept the responsibilities of guiding and caring for another human being.

i do not ascribe to the belief that the master is better, i see his role as complimentary to my own as his slave. however, there is another concept that i'll discuss and that is the master as perfection personified. i will be honest, while i can grasp it on a transcendental level and recognize that it is possible, it is difficult for me to say whether many aspire to such or ever reach that place. i do believe this is how some submissives and slaves view their master. however, to do so would require me to have someone that embodies the characteristics i've described.


Hi porcelaine-of-the-ever-changing-avatar:) (I really liked that last one with the geisha-like robe)

I agree with much in here and wanted to just expand a little on it. I would say a Master is one who has mastered himself first and foremost and is a Man of strong integrity and character and leadership abilities and possessed of the qualities that you describe. I would disagree that a knowledge of leather history and the application of pain is necessary however. Someone can master someone else without either of those things. Like you, I see it more as internal enslavement. All that is required is that a Master who has worked on crafting himself to be the best Man he can be is then able to compel others to follow him based on the Man he is. He should be able to do this, IMO, with nothing but the force of his personality.

Skills in using implements are important to learn if one is going to use them. But learning them alone, does not a Master make.

What you said about perfection, I think that goes two ways. A Master can also see perfection in his slave. But I don't really believe perfection is attainable on either side- perhaps moments of perfection. But being human, we all have our off days. I don't think a Master is "better" than a slave. I think they are both a natural part of creation and each has their place in it, like Yin and Yang. You need both for balance. Having said that, it is also natural for a slave to follow and to defer, so respect for that position differential is given, but being lower in status, does not equate to being lower in value or not being "as good as." They are just different sides of a coin.

Thanks for posting, I've enjoyed reading your posts so far!

Well wishes,
anna

< Message edited by AnnaOfAramis -- 10/23/2009 5:01:19 AM >

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 5:04:13 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 523
Joined: 7/30/2008
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Thank you for adding to this girls abbreviation vocabulary Master IronBear! She DID guess the D.I....G.A.F. parts

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 5:11:52 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I suppose In should get serious here. I would be a complete pompous ass if I believed I was the best there is in anything other than to say that I am the best there is in being me. Even in my heyday when in one aspect I beat all comers for two years, I never fought every fighter in the entire world but those in a field limited to those invited to fight. Neets does many things better then I do including the general maintenance of my car. many occult students who I have initiated have far out stripped me in specific areas of practice and theoretical knowledge in their preferred fields. I prefer a slave who can complement both myself and the home. Hopefully he or she has skills and/or knowledge different or superior to mine which adds to the wealth of the home (and I do not talk about money here).With me there will always be a well defined hierarchy with me at the head but that is the system I understand and prefer it does not make me better than anyone else. What it does mean is that the proverbial buck stops at my desk.

You are most welcome lass. The pleasure was mine.


< Message edited by IronBear -- 10/23/2009 5:12:57 AM >


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 5:39:32 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 523
Joined: 7/30/2008
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quote:

You Tube and search for Kevin Bloody Wilson and then look for D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.
Brilliant

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 6:49:42 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
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It's all about fulfilling your role (a subject you appeared to be alluding to at one point in your rant), the order of nature for some, the rights of life for others and to even others simply being true to yourself. Nature is all about balance, there is good and bad, there is right and wrong, but the definitions of such are subjective at best.

Some people are born to dominant, some are even intended to be ultra dominant. Others are intended to be submissive, some even ultra submissive. But without doubt nearly all possess qualities of both. You see these separate yet intertwined conditions are there to promote human survival. Some folks may like to use the titles and actions of each condition in their kinky play, but that does not define the totality of the concept.

So in the end each is little more than a specific role thrust upon an individual by their own personal nature. And judging by your attitude it seems obvious enough where your nature falls.

So dispense with the childish fits and pay the fuck attention.
quote:

ORIGINAL: IBused

What makes a Master?  What makes a submissive?  A Master Doms...Tops...gives orders..right?   yeah, right? What makes you better then the submissive's you Top?    I will answer that question for you...."Nothing"
You only have a role to play and your role is not all that.....you/we are as only as powerful as we connect with. So..Master's/Doms/Tops?  what makes you ......ahem..a Master?    Listen all...this will be good.



< Message edited by xBullx -- 10/23/2009 7:24:52 AM >


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to IBused)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 7:17:26 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IBused

What makes a Master?  What makes a submissive?  A Master Doms...Tops...gives orders..right?   yeah, right? What makes you better then the submissive's you Top?    I will answer that question for you...."Nothing"
You only have a role to play and your role is not all that.....you/we are as only as powerful as we connect with. So..Master's/Doms/Tops?  what makes you ......ahem..a Master?    Listen all...this will be good.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...as far as being a better human being than any of the girls I've had, I can say that's true in only two cases...one was a cheat and the other was a twisted bitch.  The others?  I am NO better than they are and never considered myself to be. 

I AM better at the dominant "role" than they are.  There's certain attributes that help most dominants...one is being able to have a long-term vision and then to be able to plot out the various paths to get there.  Another is the ability to see things from all sides, even within the confines of the boundaries set up for the dynamic.  It's been said by many submissives on here that they need their dominant to understand them...what helps a dominant to do that is being able to see things from all sides;  not just his or even his and hers but from sides not considered but which may be in play.  Patience is also an attribute that I've noted in many on both sides of the kneel but I'd have to say that it is needed in a much bigger helping on the dominant side.  When you ask someone to yield to you, you are already prepared to take on the responsibilities with accepting that yielding...but it doesn't come all at once.  They might yield all immediately in this area and in pieces in another area and not at all in other areas.  And here is where another attribute comes in...guidance...having the ability to wait (patience) while helping them to get there (guidance).

Does any of that make me better than her?  At dominance, yes.  As a human being?  Fuck no.

As others have noted, someone must have pissed in your wheaties.  Not attractive in a 50 year old man.  But there again...most 50 year old men I know don't have a picture that reminds someone of a teenage boy rather than a man so maybe the whining is what works for you.  The general tone of your post indicates it works very well.

(in reply to IBused)
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RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 7:18:41 AM   
Sylverdawn


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Ive noticed this young man has a penchance for confrontational language and rudeness.. personally I think he is just seeking attention.. and seems to garner it frequently and with relish..

What makes a Master... well..basically he/she says he/she is and others buy it.. truth or bullshit.. shrugs and as we say around here period end of discussion AMEN..

have a nice day.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 7:35:36 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IBused
What makes a Master?  What makes a submissive?  A Master Doms...Tops...gives orders..right?   yeah, right? What makes you better then the submissive's you Top?    I will answer that question for you...."Nothing"
You only have a role to play and your role is not all that.....you/we are as only as powerful as we connect with. So..Master's/Doms/Tops?  what makes you ......ahem..a Master?    Listen all...this will be good.
what makes me a "master" is that carol is willing to give herself to me. But at least for me, the way more intersting question is, "What made you so rude and angry?"

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to IBused)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 7:42:27 AM   
xBullx


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Interesting...

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that not only do you like carol....it appears she defines your very existence.

best of luck.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 8:28:47 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that not only do you like carol....it appears she defines your very existence.
For starters, I do not "like" Carol. I like vanilla ice-cream and living near the ocean. I "love" Carol and yes, in an awful lot of ways, she does in fact define my very existence. That fact that you cannot wrap your head around those ways, why they would be the way they are, or how they serve myself and my relationship really means pretty much nothing.

So out of curiosity, has passive-aggressive gone in fashion on gor nowadays?

I think I can save you a lot of trouble with me though. Nothing that Carol and I are doing even remotely resembles any standard of gorean behavior nor would either of us want it to. By gorean standards, I am not a master and she is not a slave. There ya go. You win at internet discussion boards.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 8:40:05 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
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Aren't I a stinker....



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 8:49:22 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

I agree with much in here and wanted to just expand a little on it. I would say a Master is one who has mastered himself first and foremost and is a Man of strong integrity and character and leadership abilities and possessed of the qualities that you describe. I would disagree that a knowledge of leather history and the application of pain is necessary however. Someone can master someone else without either of those things. Like you, I see it more as internal enslavement. All that is required is that a Master who has worked on crafting himself to be the best Man he can be is then able to compel others to follow him based on the Man he is. He should be able to do this, IMO, with nothing but the force of his personality.


hi anna,

thank you for the compliment. it will return. it simply isn't time for that one right now.

i chose to include the knowledge of leather history and application of pain to be all encompassing. if the individual came into contact with a submissive that had zero knowledge one would hope he could fill in the gaps. also, many spend time reading initially when they embark on this path. what they choose to do with the things they've learned is a personal choice. however, if he is presented with a question one would hope he can provide an answer from a reputable source as opposed to the musings you might encounter on the internet that perpetuate myths as facts that are merely personal decisions instead.

quote:

Skills in using implements are important to learn if one is going to use them. But learning them alone, does not a Master make.


the proper application of force is important to know whether he uses a tool or his bare hand. there are ways one should and shouldn't strike and areas you must be aware of as well. sometimes the differences are in the context of the blow or simply inches apart. even when using ones hands you have to be mindful of these things. while you may feel it is unnecessary, good leaders make sure they are well versed in the basics and choose their areas of specialty. subordinates offer compensation for areas with demonstrated weaknesses. however, that isn't realistic in a power exchange unless you've building a family. therefore, he is theoretically the go to guy and must rely on his own capabilities.

this doesn't mean he'll know everything or that continued education will not occur. but he should have a clue at the very least. whether he elects to become a heavy player or not isn't the point. having some proficiency in this area would not hurt. furthermore we're referencing the master, not a dominant. the mere definition of the term implies someone who willingly goes above and beyond to master their craft. i'd be hard pressed to understand how that would be possible if he had zero knowledge or experience in this area.

quote:

What you said about perfection, I think that goes two ways. A Master can also see perfection in his slave. But I don't really believe perfection is attainable on either side- perhaps moments of perfection. But being human, we all have our off days. I don't think a Master is "better" than a slave. I think they are both a natural part of creation and each has their place in it, like Yin and Yang. You need both for balance. Having said that, it is also natural for a slave to follow and to defer, so respect for that position differential is given, but being lower in status, does not equate to being lower in value or not being "as good as." They are just different sides of a coin.


i don't view her as less than in the sense you've mentioned. i think she's his prize in all honesty. the effigy he has crafted from a slab to something spectacular. i attach eastern correlations in the description. where you reference yin and yang, i prefer shakti and Shiva, primarily due to their different incarnations and the specific force they create when united as one. the idea of perfection differs with each person. for me, actualizing is more suitable and what i aspire towards. but it is necessary to have an Owner that desires the same. understanding these goals at the onset is helpful. what makes the idea of perfection or some aspect of it a reality is when both are working towards the same thing. if this is merely something i desire and he has no interest, it is probable it won't occur with him.

quote:

Thanks for posting, I've enjoyed reading your posts so far!


you are most welcome. thank you for sharing.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 10:10:19 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that not only do you like carol....it appears she defines your very existence.
For starters, I do not "like" Carol. I like vanilla ice-cream and living near the ocean. I "love" Carol and yes, in an awful lot of ways, she does in fact define my very existence. That fact that you cannot wrap your head around those ways, why they would be the way they are, or how they serve myself and my relationship really means pretty much nothing.

So out of curiosity, has passive-aggressive gone in fashion on gor nowadays?

I think I can save you a lot of trouble with me though. Nothing that Carol and I are doing even remotely resembles any standard of gorean behavior nor would either of us want it to. By gorean standards, I am not a master and she is not a slave. There ya go. You win at internet discussion boards.


Actually Jeff, Even when I first discovered Gor on the net and especially in forums, passive-aggressive attiotudes have bneen part and parcel of Gor or at least Gorean Masters. Some are normally down right rude too. Bull is pretty well mind and well mannered compared to some I know here or who were here. Terseness tends to be even more common too. Just something you learn to live with it ignore and move on with what your doing.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 10:33:39 AM   
Cuffkinks


Posts: 1780
Joined: 5/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IBused

What makes you better then the submissive's you Top?    I will answer that question for you...."Nothing"



I'm going to respond to this on the same level it was given...

A-DUH!!!!

_____________________________

Resident "11"

"I love you, Sir. You make my heart sing and my panties wet. What more could a girl ask for?" - hejira92

"And that's why it's good to be...Me." - Gene $immons

(in reply to IBused)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 10:38:36 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 523
Joined: 7/30/2008
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quote:

i'd be hard pressed to understand how that would be possible if he had zero knowledge or experience in this area.


easy! If he doesn't ever use a whip, he doesn't need to know how to use one. Conversely, just because a bloke knows what to do with a single tail, does not mean he is uber dominant or capable of mastering someone. Heck someone could teach me how to flog I'm sure, but I'd certainly not make a good master (or mistress)

edited because I got interrupted by Master before I could finish posting (that happens a lot around here ummm where was I?

quote:

one would hope he can provide an answer from a reputable source as opposed to the musings you might encounter on the internet that perpetuate myths as facts that are merely personal decisions instead.

Yes, I definitely agree - just want to add though, that it applies to more than leather too. A knowledge of leather history probably wouldn't be as useful to a gorean Master, but having read the books of John Norman would be. My master and I include eastern practices, so a knowledge of those would be useful in our case.

quote:

i don't view her as less than in the sense you've mentioned. i think she's his prize in all honesty. the effigy he has crafted from a slab to something spectacular. i attach eastern correlations in the description. where you reference yin and yang, i prefer shakti and Shiva, primarily due to their different incarnations and the specific force they create when united as one. the idea of perfection differs with each person. for me, actualizing is more suitable and what i aspire towards. but it is necessary to have an Owner that desires the same.


Thanks for the additional insights Porcelaine:)

Well wishes,
anna

< Message edited by AnnaOfAramis -- 10/23/2009 11:22:11 AM >

(in reply to porcelaine)
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RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 10:46:05 AM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
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OP: Simply go to and read the thread/strings on the "Positive Experiences" forum.  That is, read them as opposed to looking at them.  Maybe that will give you some clues as to how to be a good sub/slave which you seem to have no clue about. 

OOPS! That last was NOT meant to be a flame, but rather to emphasize what I perceive as a "hole" in his knowlege base.

_____________________________

"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

10 fluffy points
50 nz points

Member: VAA's posse

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RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 10:58:05 AM   
SubOnlyForHim


Posts: 787
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quote:

the other was a twisted bitch- CreativeDominant


Hey! What's so wrong with being a twisted bitch? *sulking*

_____________________________

just call me "sophie" ~~~ Thanks, sirsholly, for the new nick! i now feel so special. Whoohoooo!

*committed*

~The more answers i get, the more questions i have.~







(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 11:37:44 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

easy! If he doesn't ever use a whip, he doesn't need to know how to use one. Conversely, just because a bloke knows what to do with a single tail, does not mean he is uber dominant or capable of mastering someone. Heck someone could teach me how to flog I'm sure, but I'd certainly not make a good master (or mistress)


you keep missing the context of what this involves. yes, at the moment he might not have an interest, but can you honestly say you're the same person you were when you began this journey? people acquire knowledge everyday that may not be put to use at the time but could be later on. so he experiments and tries a bit of this and that so he some working knowledge of what that entails. whether he chooses to use that is another story. that is what separates good from great, people that are willing to go the extra mile.

quote:

Yes, I definitely agree - just want to add though, that it applies to more than leather too. A knowledge of leather history probably wouldn't be as useful to a gorean Master, but having read the books of John Norman would be. My master and I include eastern practices, so a knowledge of those would be useful in our case.


when i say leather history i'm speaking of someone that can provide some reasonable answers to questions a novice might have. he may not know it all or remember everything he's read. but exposure counts a lot. i would never be gorean, but i have read some of the materials and spoken to those that practice the lifestyle to have some understanding of what it means. why? i'm a mentor, so i need to be well versed in different things.

i have a thirst for knowledge. i realize everyone is different. i'm an intellectual and will always kneel for One who is the same. serving someone that is content in resting on His laurels would never work for me. so when you ask what i define as Master material, that's it. there are a few that post here that speak favorably of diverse experiences that highlight the point i'm making.

porcelaine




_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: what makes a Master - 10/23/2009 12:33:29 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SubOnlyForHim

quote:

the other was a twisted bitch- CreativeDominant


Hey! What's so wrong with being a twisted bitch? *sulking*
Now, now, now......there's the good kind of twisted bitch and then there's the kind that tells you that she wants you to beat you hard enough to leave marks and fuck her silly and then leave some more marks...the drops your toy bag by your head the next morning and tells you that you have 10 minutes to get out of there or you'll be sitting in a police car for assault.

(in reply to SubOnlyForHim)
Profile   Post #: 40
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