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RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 7/30/2006 6:27:42 AM

MissTlTTYMilk

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my two cents worth but with inflation i will still owe a dollar tomorrow

Faith is the belief that tomorrow will get better........or in a greater Being. Either is a reason to wake up in the morning.
Religion is a tool to heighten faith--like any tool if it used incorrectly, it can be as distructive as it is helpful.
Spirituality is Your soul's struggle for salvation, your struggle for a connection to the Being, and/or conscience (i prefer that latter).......i dont think religion is spirituality or should be considered a means to be "saved".

The word "Christian" is overused......if it cannot be interchange with the term "Christ-like", it should be replaced with "self-righteous" meaning only righteous in your own mind's eye. "Christian" should mean good and should not mean my opinion is the only thing that matters so i will just slap on this word to my cause because I am right.

<ducks and protects head with hands> smile

< Message edited by MissTlTTYMilk -- 7/30/2006 6:30:24 AM >

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 21

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 7/30/2006 6:56:02 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissTlTTYMilk

my two cents worth but with inflation i will still owe a dollar tomorrow

Faith is the belief that tomorrow will get better........or in a greater Being. Either is a reason to wake up in the morning.

Isn't that more akin to *hope* ....lol

agirl

(in reply to MissTlTTYMilk)

Post #: 22

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/1/2006 12:32:40 AM

MissTlTTYMilk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissTlTTYMilk

my two cents worth but with inflation i will still owe a dollar tomorrow

Faith is the belief that tomorrow will get better........or in a greater Being. Either is a reason to wake up in the morning.

Isn't that more akin to *hope* ....lol

agirl

Hmmm.....i see your point...
I suppose if you wish or anticipate on the above mentioned, it is hope. However, if one has confidence in the above, it is faith. <smile>

< Message edited by MissTlTTYMilk -- 8/1/2006 12:50:16 AM >

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 23

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/2/2006 10:12:00 AM

LadyEllen

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Spirituality is what drives the seeker into the desert, where away from all those religious types he can perceive the truth and come to have faith. The problem is when he returns to town. The religious types know about the truth, but have never perceived it directly and so pour scorn on the seeker. Meanwhile others, who like the seeker suspect that religion and truth are not necessarily the same thing but lack the courage to go into the desert and seek for themselves, take the seeker and have faith in him rather than what he tells them of the truth - making another religion where religiosity not spirituality or truth are important.

I'm alluding to christianity there of course, but it seems to be the same in all religions. The outward form becomes important, rather than the inner spiritual development. In heathenry we have the same problem - some feel its more important to dress and act like a Viking, rather than engage in spiritual activity as modern people through the runic lore - in the same way I feel that so many christians go to church for appearances' sake but fail to earnestly practice the way of Jesus.

For me, the most important thing for all of us, should we be so motivated, is to investigate spirituality for ourselves. Only then can one truly come to have faith, and also the wisdom to know that the truth is not something that can be preached to us, but that we have to experience for ourselves. Bishops, Imams, Rabbis and so on can be helpful to us - but in the end religion is not truth - religion is a societal construct and the truth is far bigger than any social construct could ever possibly comprise.

As a heathen, I'm not loathe to quote Jesus as he is reported to have said; "seek and ye shall find" he said - note that he did not advocate taking anyone else's preaching (even his own) in that regard.
E

(in reply to MissTlTTYMilk)

Post #: 24

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/2/2006 10:42:54 AM

agirl

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I'm a complete *unbeliever*.......but I also know that Jesus said that we must become as *little children*........As little children we ask *Why?* ALL the time. The disturbing thing about faith in religion is that questions are frowned on.

agirl

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 25

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/2/2006 11:10:17 AM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

So my question is, what drives your behavior? Is it Faith, Religion or Spirituality (I capitalize these for easy read versus any deference)

What do you define as Faith Versus Religion versus Spirituality

Do you think people today have more faith, more religion or more spirituality? Has religion or organized religion made a resurgence?

My Thoughts:

If a person's actions are wrapped in the cloak of Faith, Religion or Spirituality- they are somehow protected and justified.

I feel "beliefs" are more prevalent today because we need the justification.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to MHOO314)

Post #: 26

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/2/2006 11:27:35 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

So my question is, what drives your behavior? Is it Faith, Religion or Spirituality (I capitalize these for easy read versus any deference)

What do you define as Faith Versus Religion versus Spirituality

Do you think people today have more faith, more religion or more spirituality? Has religion or organized religion made a resurgence?

My Thoughts:

If a person's actions are wrapped in the cloak of Faith, Religion or Spirituality- they are somehow protected and justified.

I feel "beliefs" are more prevalent today because we need the justification.

Are beliefs more prevalent today?

I'm not sure that even if they are, that it would be about justification alone.

agirl

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 27

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/2/2006 4:06:48 PM

CrappyDom

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I am with L&M on this one. I am an atheist through and through. I don't get to ask god for forgiveness, my sins cannot be washed away in the Ganges or by participating in ritual cannibalism and eating the flesh of Christ.

I have to wake up in the morning and look myself in the mirror, that is why I choose to do good over evil. There isn't some promise of heaven to make me be good, or a threat of hell to keep me on a path. I simply make the best decision I can and live forever with the consequences.

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 28

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/2/2006 6:36:03 PM

Dtesmoac

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Must be wonderful to have faith, religeon, spirituality, to know totally, absolutely that "everything will be all right" I am envious of anyone that has this.

Did a creator create this, if so why is it so imperfect?
If they are all knowing and powerful why did they create this imperfection?
If they are not all knowing and powerful why should I worship them?
If they are all knowing and powerful why do they torture a lesser species with such doubts?

A man that acted in this way would be considered what................a sadist?

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 29

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/2/2006 6:53:46 PM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

Must be wonderful to have faith, religeon, spirituality, to know totally, absolutely that "everything will be all right" I am envious of anyone that has this.

Did a creator create this, if so why is it so imperfect?
If they are all knowing and powerful why did they create this imperfection?
If they are not all knowing and powerful why should I worship them?
If they are all knowing and powerful why do they torture a lesser species with such doubts?

A man that acted in this way would be considered what................a sadist?

And if the Creator is perfect.. why does everthing he makes DIE?

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to Dtesmoac)

Post #: 30

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/3/2006 6:33:24 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

Must be wonderful to have faith, religeon, spirituality, to know totally, absolutely that "everything will be all right" I am envious of anyone that has this.

Did a creator create this, if so why is it so imperfect?
If they are all knowing and powerful why did they create this imperfection?
If they are not all knowing and powerful why should I worship them?
If they are all knowing and powerful why do they torture a lesser species with such doubts?

A man that acted in this way would be considered what................a sadist?

And if the Creator is perfect.. why does everthing he makes DIE?

Well, That makes him a *loving father* of course.......Aren't all fathers this way?.......and if not, WHY not?.....lol

In a similar vein to Dtesmoac...

Why would an all powerful, all seeing, all knowing God NEED us? What kind of logic is that? The idea that God's alleged *purpose* FOR man is dependant on human beings is laughable.

This presents God as rather limited in power,actually.

He *supposedly* gave us minds..........but doesn't wish them used?

agirl

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 31

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/3/2006 7:41:42 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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The problem there is that we have the wrong god, not that god doesnt exist. The Gnostic view makes a lot more sense than the Bible in that regard. Basically -

1) this world was created by the devil, not by God (the God in the Bible is actually the devil)
2) the devil created this world in order to imprison that of God which he had stolen, within people (our souls)
3) the devil being the devil has made an imperfect world
4) the sufferings in this world are the work of the devil to distract us from discovering our true inner God nature, and to punish us should we try to discover it
5) the commandments of law etc are the work of the devil to contain and control us and prevent us discovering our God nature
6) once we know these things and learn the Gnosis of how to escape this prison world, we can restore ourselves to God

E

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 32

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/3/2006 5:53:07 PM

Dtesmoac

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Possibly makes some sense.
One question whats God in this version doing to help that would encourage us to "restore ourselves to God"?

Would love to find religion but logic gets in the way.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 33

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/3/2006 6:29:46 PM

MmakeMme

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Faith is total acceptance of religious dogma: Jesus rose from the dead and was both human and divine; each Dalai is the incarnation of the Bodhisattva Maitreya ; Hindu karma and reincarnation; Scientologists' immortal spiritual beings (thetans) recycling throughout time. On and on. (It is interesting to note that there are many smiliar threads through many dissimilar religions.)

In contrast, spirituality is an awareness of one's humble place in the universe, an awareness of the soul, and an attempt to live a good life although perhaps not under the umbrella of any one religion.

_____________________________

Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 34

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/3/2006 6:39:05 PM

mnottertail

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Very little is said about the Heathen Religion of the Norse, and others in the vein.

In Norse religion there is an end to Gods, and new ones come.

In the end of the joke there is a something..........but it is unclear whether or not it is an organized something in the way we like to postulate.

I believe god does play dice.....all in all. The truth of this and statistical evidence (which is preponderable, ponderable and demonstrable) is that in the fullness of time, this god can play every game and not know, when but know every outcome. The real question that faces us really is whether or not these games of dice are being played in simultanity, omicron-1 simultanity, or consecutively.

Kinda like no limit, limit and unlimited texas hold 'em.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to MmakeMme)

Post #: 35

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/3/2006 6:48:31 PM

untamedshysub

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missed the part about what drives my behavior. I think its a combination of all three that make me who I am. Which is good I do not judge nor do I wish to be judged . I like me and it took a long time to get here. My relationship with God is just that mine no one can take it away and he loves me just as I am.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 36

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/3/2006 6:53:27 PM

mnottertail

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that is one that I never considered but equally as valid.......perhaps god plays the unlimited, limited and consecutive game simultaneously.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to untamedshysub)

Post #: 37

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/4/2006 4:12:25 AM

LadyEllen

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Hi Dtesmoac

In the Gnostic systems, the real God sends part of Itself into the world to bring the gnosis to man. Christian Gnostics believed Jesus to be this messenger, but there were many forms of gnosticism based on many different cults. If you do a Google for gnosticism you can find out more if you want to.

By the way, I'm not saying any of it is true or that all of it makes sense - just that it sounds more true and makes more sense than orthodox catholic Christianity!

E

(in reply to Dtesmoac)

Post #: 38

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/4/2006 4:45:08 AM

LadyEllen

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Hi Mnotter

Yes - the heathen Germanic/Norse system does just make a whole lot more sense I think, and it also appeals directly to me as a descendant of those peoples in some mystical way. The way this system describes the world and our purpose in it is comprehensive and coherent but is a bit too much to detail here - the basics though are;

In Odin we have our own dying and rising God who sacrificed himself to win the runes - the gnosis of all, whereby he could shape this cosmos as a great mill to restore all to the All from which Ymir (a primeval and evil Giant) had rent it. Odin killed Ymir and then built the cosmos from the body as a turning mill which by its cyclic motion gradually purges the evil of Ymir from it all through Ragnarok as a recurrent happening rather than a single end to the cosmos. The cosmos is brought to a great conflict of godly vs ungodly in each Ragnarok, and though the godly appear to be vanquished, the skill of Odin is such that it is the godly who survive into the next cycle. Mankind are here in the centre of Odin's cosmos in Midgard, to assist in the whole process.

This explains why the world is so imperfect and yet is the work of God (as Odin) - Odin shaped the world and us from imperfect stuff because the world and we are infected with the evil of Ymir from whom the entire cosmos is made. Evil is in the very nature of all that is in the cosmos, so we can expect to suffer, but in maintaining godliness we will survive the purging to come. Of course the question still stands as to why God (Odin) allows and sometimes even makes suffering? There is no single answer to this - some suffering is the result of deeds from former lives, other suffering is the effect of the evil in us and others as it struggles to reassert itself, other suffering is in the nature of Odin's plan for the cosmos.

In the end though, as long as we maintain and uphold godliness through virtues such as honour and truth (not necessarily moral good as in christianity), all suffering will cease and we will be restored to the All that is One. It may not be in this life, but since our nature is eternal and we are reborn, we need do nothing more than maintain godliness in all we do to achieve it. We must trust in Odin and the Gods and Goddesses who assist him that as long as we assist them, we shall be "saved".

To go further than this would require a lot more detailed foundation than these brief basics allow. Suffice to say that we can achieve restoration to the All that is One in this life without waiting for the effect of the cosmic mill in a future life, because of the nature of time and the existence of Odin's work in no-time.

I know people will say this is gobbledy-gook, but in response all I will say is that these are the very simplest basics rather than the whole system, and that it works for me and others, is coherent and comprehensive and similar to many other systems from other cultures - it thus passes the test for spiritual and religious validity.
E

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 39

RE: Faith, Religion, or Spirituality - 8/4/2006 5:45:34 AM

mnottertail

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eloquently stated. I am with you all the way LadyEllen.

Ron

Odin is the god of confusion and war, so this puts the lie to christian thought, when they claim that 'god is not the author of confusion'.

LOLOL,
Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 40

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