RE: Racial Dilemma ? (Full Version)

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lizi -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 7:35:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

He's not an artist. He's a jeweler.


He's an artist. He's at college studying art, jewelry and/or metalwork is his medium.




Wolf2Bear -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 7:58:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

He's not an artist. He's a jeweler.


Erm...so a jeweler can't craft a piece of art with metal, gem stones and precious metals? Yet multitudes of people do consider the Faberge eggs to be works of art and not pieces of jewelry.




DesFIP -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/28/2009 2:37:47 AM)

Jewelry is studied in art school and considered an applied art as opposed to a fine art.

Nevertheless, it does not pertain to the subject at hand which is why the op doesn't tell his fellow student to go to hell.




popeye1250 -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/28/2009 10:13:28 AM)

I'm not an Artist but isn't it the job of Artists to provoke people and make them think? Remember the "Piss Christ?"
Lots of people were pissed off by that.
I think it's important that Artists have free expression and not be regulated or interfered with by governments.
I'd err on the side of free speech.




RCdc -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/28/2009 10:21:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

He's not an artist. He's a jeweler.


He is an artist and an excellent one at that.  I know that for a fact.
I have seen his work and his designs as well as his sketches and photography.  I am blessed to own some of his work.
He is also my best bud.

the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/28/2009 10:29:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Nevertheless, it does not pertain to the subject at hand which is why the op doesn't tell his fellow student to go to hell.


He is far too much of a kind and beautiful a person to go that far and he is the type of person who - in all sincerity - tries to understand concepts that hurt others that he cannot comprehend, so that he can try his hardest not to create ill will.

the.dark.




sophia37 -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/28/2009 4:46:55 PM)

Listen. I didn't read everyone's answer to your dilemma. I just don't have time right now. But I needed to tell you. I am an artist by nature and trade. And I went to art school as well. So I know what you are going thru. Theres always someone with an unshakable view. Get used to it. It happens for a lifetime.

I'm sorry you have a classmate, for that is what she is, nothing more, who thinks of you in a way you do not see yourself. Oh well too bad. She will not change her view. So why should you? Just shy away from her. You're paying how much for these classes? You cannot satisfy her, so avoid her if at all possible. Or just change the subject. Or chainz the subject (sorry bad joke)

When you brought up chains, I did not in any way see in my mind slavery. In fact, as an artist who has made her living for 25 years selling her craft at Rennaissance Faires and celtic fests, I in fact saw chain mail. Its all in the context.

So no. Its not a given that chains mean slavery. Thats just rediculous. Just smile and nod and say nothing. Or listen and agree with her. Whatever it takes. Then you, go about your business and develop yourself as an artisan. It takes all kinds and thats how it is. Good luck to you. Let others NEVER, stand in your way. Go around them and follow your star.




DesFIP -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/28/2009 5:28:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

[He is far too much of a kind and beautiful a person to go that far and he is the type of person who - in all sincerity - tries to understand concepts that hurt others that he cannot comprehend, so that he can try his hardest not to create ill will.

the.dark.


Which he has done way past a fair share but only to be met by this other person demanding more and more. In fact, although he's stated that she will accept no criticism or suggestions about her work, she feels that she has the right to tell others what they can and cannot do.

She isn't being enslaved. Racism is not a factor or she wouldn't have been accepted to the school as happened 50 years ago.

But he needs to draw a line in the sand and not permit others to cross it, no matter the cost. Because otherwise he won't be doing anything he passionately believes in. He needs to have stronger boundaries.




Lucienne -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/28/2009 6:39:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

When you brought up chains, I did not in any way see in my mind slavery. In fact, as an artist who has made her living for 25 years selling her craft at Rennaissance Faires and celtic fests, I in fact saw chain mail. Its all in the context.



The context was 300 year old chains salvaged from sunken and rotten boats. Your perspective may be of ren fest saleswoman, but that was not the context. If slavery didn't come to mind as a possibility from the stated context, then you are not a very observant or educated person. I personally find chain mail exceptionally hot and am always pleased to think of it, but my mind didn't go there from the description the OP gave. Because chain mail is very different from the chains used on boats. duh.






Aneirin -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/29/2009 4:14:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

He's not an artist. He's a jeweler.


No, I am a metal smith, that way I do not limit myself or my expertise.

I do machine repair, forging, welding, tool making, panel beating, copper smithing, silversmithing, jewellery making, in fact, if it's metal, and there is a skill required in it's movement, I learn it. Jack of all metal trades perhaps, but I am reasonably proficient in most, better skill and knowledge comes with practice. Also with metals, basic physics governs all, it is then just a material.

Now as for artist, and that matter craftsman, that debate has been raging since at least the arts and crafts movement, somewhere around 1880 when John Ruskin wrote about the art a craftsman produces, given the time scale from then to now and all the meaningless debate that has been produced, it would seem there is no clear definition of what is art. So, I take it as art is in the eye of the beholder, and in that case the creator. Of course that would mean something that is described as art to one, may not be art to another, but at the end of the day, who cares, it really does not matter, as the thing that is most important, is the person who possess the 'art', if they like it, bollocks to those who don't. There is a lot to be said, about beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't know whether this is the mind of an artist, but others know what I am like when I have the mind to create, the creative process is more important than the finished article, that would be the research, the planning, all the thought and feeling  that goes in before any tool is even picked up. The making, well to me it is like playing a recording, or opening a tap ( faucet), and letting what is held back, flow, the energy creating the design in the mind. When the piece is done, it's done, the energy has been expelled and turned into another form,the feeling passes on, the piece has to go, as it now serves no purpose in fact getting rid of it, is a bit of a priority with me, as with 'it' hanging around, I find it blocks  the mind,so off it goes to where ever.

So, now my colleague has brought, ( rightly or wrongly ) the black issue into what I am doing, ( again, rightly or wrongly ), this has now become part of my research, something I have to think about and explore, the black slavery issue is now part of the process, but I feel I am treading on contentious ground with this, and the need to be politic rings in my mind, but politic inhibits thought, so you see, personally, I have a battle with this research, a battle with myself. It is either allow the politics of the past influence my ideas, or ignore them and any dissenters and allow the energy to flow unhindered. Creating things is much like writing, don't we all feel bettter when we have wrote down our thoughts, viewed them as form and done whatever feels fit with them, me, it's usually destroy my writings, so I can move on. I feel I need to let this idea flow, as if I don't, and the resultant is a shadow of what it could have been, I will be plagued with it again, and  again, until the 'product' matches the inspiration.

But the art process, my feeling is, and this goes with so many other artists, the feeling that creates a tangible final object, comes from the dark side of us. With me, it is obvious really, friends that know me, and know about my kink, can see it in my art work. So fine, if my kink and sexuality is fuelling my art, then good, it comes from a powerful and creative place, which has been around in animal kind since the start. So, maybe my seemingly life long interest in chains does come from that past dark place, and I just thought now, snakes also feature in much of my art work, hmmm, sex.




OneMoreWaste -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/29/2009 6:06:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
Your problem is that you're applying logic to an emotional issue- which by its very nature, isn't rational.


Indeed. Some people have what I like to refer to as "epic shoulder chippage". Latching on to a Cause, usually one involving victimization of "their people", usually before their birth, and linking everything they can to it. Spreading guilt, spreading misunderstanding. Personally, I consider it a pathology waiting for a fancy Latin name.

Never mind that the chains are too long to be slave chains. Never mind that only a small percentage of ships in the British merchant marine were used for the slave trade. Never mind that the routes ran from Africa to the Americas, rather than the UK. She sees old chains, she thinks slavery, and that sets her off.

All I can suggest is to bring up your interest in BDSM with her. That will give her something new to go nuts over, and she'll leave your art alone for a while [8D]




nubianmuscle -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/29/2009 7:04:51 AM)

You said exactly what I was thinking in a much more detailed way. Some people see problems and issues where there are none, because they have nothing else to define themselves by.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
Your problem is that you're applying logic to an emotional issue- which by its very nature, isn't rational.


Indeed. Some people have what I like to refer to as "epic shoulder chippage". Latching on to a Cause, usually one involving victimization of "their people", usually before their birth, and linking everything they can to it. Spreading guilt, spreading misunderstanding. Personally, I consider it a pathology waiting for a fancy Latin name.

Never mind that the chains are too long to be slave chains. Never mind that only a small percentage of ships in the British merchant marine were used for the slave trade. Never mind that the routes ran from Africa to the Americas, rather than the UK. She sees old chains, she thinks slavery, and that sets her off.

All I can suggest is to bring up your interest in BDSM with her. That will give her something new to go nuts over, and she'll leave your art alone for a while [8D]






lizi -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/29/2009 7:38:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nubianmuscle

You said exactly what I was thinking in a much more detailed way. Some people see problems and issues where there are none, because they have nothing else to define themselves by.



Bingo! That was very insightful.

Some of my ancestors were Gypsies - who have been victimized for forever and still are today. I don't define myself by that aspect of my background. Something like a piece of art may remind me of the fact that my kin have been persecuted needlessly but it's just one thought amongst many that I will have upon viewing that object. It's not the overriding theme that I carry around and impose upon everything I experience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I just thought now, snakes also feature in much of my art work, hmmm, sex.



Hahahahaha.....




servantforuse -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/29/2009 7:45:21 PM)

Most artists that I know are a little touched ( in a good way ) and don't care what others think. Your so called friend has a thin skin. Stay away from negative people like her. You are doing nothing wrong.




Aneirin -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/29/2009 7:57:45 PM)

Touched, surely you mean crackers. 




servantforuse -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/29/2009 8:01:13 PM)

As a phone man in Milwaukees inner city (and loved it) for many years, I was called a cracker many times. I don't have a thin skin.




Aneirin -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/29/2009 8:14:39 PM)

Crackers is cool, I always did get on well with the oddballs of society.




Irishknight -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/30/2009 8:55:41 AM)

I once got pulled into a horrible discussion about slavery and genocide in a military class. After several minutes the instigator, our senior chief petty officer, allowed any white person who was feeling uncomfortable to leave. I was the only white male to stay. The discussion continued for almost a half an hour before senior chief looked at me and asked me if there was something I would like to say. I politely pointed out my native American ancestry and that when the first white settler arrived on this continent there were over 12 million natives. When they quit killing us there were approximately 200,000 left. I also pointed out that my Irish ancestors were enslaved beside blacks and chinese to build railroads. If I were to dwell as much on the wrongs done to my forefathers as some do, I would have no time to get anything else done.
Your friend has every right to honor her heritage. She has no right to force her prejudices, likes or dislikes on you. As has been said before, some people WANT to be offended and it sounds to me like she is one of those. To bring up her reasons for disliking the chain motiff once is to express an opinion. To bring it up every time there is a discussion in class is an attempt at character assassination by painting you as a racist. This woman is not your friend.




Demspotis -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/30/2009 10:23:42 AM)

It  shouldn't be hard to find out what kind of chains they are that you find and use. British maritime and naval technology and history are not obscure subjects; you just need to find the right experts and/or reference works or even websites to find the information.

Without being such an expert, I can at least point out that in addition to length, chains meant for holding anchors have to be significantly stronger, thus thicker and bulkier, than chains meant for restraining humans. In general, though most, if not all, ship-board hardware should be identifiable, including chains of different types and functions.

Chains meant for restraining humans, for that matter, shouldn't be assumed to have been specifically slave-chains; and even if they were, the slaves were not necessarily black. Particularly there in Devon, in the UK. Certainly there was a period of time in which African slaves were available in the UK; but long preceded by times in which Europeans were held in slavery. For example, no doubt the Roman invaders enslaved many Dumnonii, that is, ancient Devon-folk. Followed by English invaders, and then Norman invaders. But again, human-bearing chains might not have been slave-chains at all: they could have held convicts, for example, or perhaps war-prisoners.

Hmmm, wouldn't chains for people (at least in many cases) have things like cuffs, manacles, collars, etc., attached or even integral; and thus readily identifiable? I seem to recall than an early Continental Celtic artifact (perhaps from LaTene?) is a length of chain with some such hardware, so that it is generally identified as a slave-coffle.

Maybe information like this will help your classmate understand that you are not in any way celebrating African slavery. But as has been said, it is an emotional and symbolic issue. It seems that for her, chains in general symbolize that kind of slavery, which is a serious issue for her, understandably enough.

There are many symbols (and things) in the world that are perceived entirely differently by different groups of people: chains, dogs, snakes, swastikas, crucifices, phalli... really, it's almost impossible to avoid symbolism  that doesn't include something deeply offensive to someone somewhere, regardless of the artist's intent and meaning.

I do hope that you can at least get her to understand that your intention has nothing to do with racism or racist slavery. Even then it might still bother her because of the mental associations that chains have for her.




SoftKajira -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/31/2009 12:36:22 PM)

You can't force someone to your point of view, so unless you want to give up chains then tell her you'll agree to disagree and you won't discuss this with her anymore. If she can't handle that then apparently she is not as good a friend as you thought.




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