RE: How bad should it be before you leave?

RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (Full Version)

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Lockit -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 9:11:21 AM)
Howahkan, Though my words are tough, that doesn't mean I am totally against you or that I don't have a heart or any understanding. I am one of those tough love people and the first things I see that need to be done are recognizing our situation for what it is and getting up and doing something about it. I think you will. I think you don't have any other choice. Taking an easy way out typically means to me, in the long run, the hardest way. There is no way but actually going through it all and facing things we may not want to face... going step by step into a new way of living. I believe you can do this when you are able to stop feeling upset over what she did or didn't do and when you can see that you just simply are in this situation and need to get out of it. With hard work you can do so. In the process of this and in time, you will see things that you ignored or failed to do and hopefully will admit there was more to it. OR... you will continue to blame her. Either way will determine how well you come out of this and how well you might be able to place yourself in the life of another woman. It is up to you to shine. The best advice I think you could be given at this point is to stop focusing on how it happened and start doing something to fix it and then go examine why... because the major issue at this point is making a way for you to get out of the situation. With a job you will feel less powerless and out of control and that will take away some of the fear and maybe anger. Good luck.

CarrieO -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 9:11:31 AM)
howahkan, When I first started posting on these forums, I'm sure I made a complete ass of myself. I was new and in my own frenzy...I'm the first to admit that. I also understand at any time anyone can choose to dredge up some of those old posts in the hopes of applying them to my current situation and choices. That's part of putting yourself out there onto the world web web. I have brought up your introductory thread simply because it seems many times people only give half truths or choose to only offer part of a story. The problems you're addressing now and the posts you made but a month ago, in my opinion, make for a complete story. That being said...I will respect your request. I have a feeling you're starting to understand why I mentioned both post on this thread and I believe you may understand how your past words can relate to your present and the importance of re-reading and editing before posting anything on the internet (at least I hope so). I wish you the best and hope you take some of the good advice on this thread to heart. Bitterness and the victim role can go hand in hand...neither make for a good partner when making a fresh start.

howahkan -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 9:18:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Pixel, My comments are coming from a place of... don't be a victim or lay blame and going the domestic abuse route for resources is a form of laying blame by a victim mindset. In this situation there is not a victim and the op is already struggling with seeing himself as a victim (of her financial imbalance and lack of communication they both had) without seeing how he allowed himself to be blind to what was happening. The best resource to learn accountablity and resource would be a twelve step program which focuses on personal issues that result in situations where blaming others for what we take part in would be addressed. They also have resources. Using a program designed for domestic abuse is not easy when you haven't been domestically abused and that goes for women as well as men. There are shelters for men. There are resources and no need to play victim. The best resource the op has is himself. Pulling himself up by realizing he saw what was going on without seeing it and going out and finding a job and a new life. There are also resources in mental health programs that have a sliding scale fee and housing in the Denver area that he could access if he has a doctor that states he has addictions or emotional need to be in the housing and that housing goes on a sliding scale fee of how much he makes with the lowest rent of twenty five dollars a month. I know a number of people that have gotten into this housing for emotional reasons. There are things that are resources that better suit the op's situation than a group that works with the domestically abused. Projecting more into the situation than what is there would be a huge mistake and would promote the personal issues that the op is struggling with at times. Projecting because of what another went through is a mistake because he has his own situation that is different. I believe in calling it what it is rather than finding an excuse that would fit so that someone could benefit somehow from it. This is no where near domestic or lifestyle abuse and is more in line with personal choice and how one functions in life. Addressing the real issues the op has spoken of in this thread and others is most important. Not projecting. We are only victim as long as someone is doing something to us and as long as we think like a victim. Promoting victim thinking or functioning is in itself a major hurdle to those who might eventually like to be healthy and happy. Being victimized at some point does not mean we continue to be victim and play the wounded victim... it should mean... I was victimized... it hurt... I feel this and that... but by god I won't continue to be a victim and will go out and live my life. Being strong enough to give up victim status and become a survivor who doesn't hold on to the wounds is what a survior is. Someone who holds on to the wounds is still victim and hasn't survived... just moved through it to get out of it enough to be out of it, but still victim to the mindset of victimization which hinders good emotional and mental growth and life growth. Talk about your psychoanalytic theories, Wow, take a breath. I'm sorry but I don't you think you over-analyzing the situation?

Lockit -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 9:25:25 AM)
My theories have helped a lot of people in far worse situations than your own, to heal, grow and move on to happy lives. And they came out survivors rather than victims. It is your choice, listen or not. My way doesn't have to be your way.

howahkan -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 9:38:18 AM)
I apologize Lockit, I feel bad. You are just trying to help. I get it. When I re-read my original post I see where you may think I feel I am a victim. I don't feel like a victim. I feel shocked. I thought I was smarter than this. I thought I had a good handle on life and I thought I could trust her. I never excepted this and I never saw it coming. I feel stupid and embarrassed, but not victimized. quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit My theories have helped a lot of people in far worse situations than your own, to heal, grow and move on to happy lives. And they came out survivors rather than victims. It is your choice, listen or not. My way doesn't have to be your way.

Lockit -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 9:45:55 AM)
I understand Howahkan... I really do. I think we all go a bit crazy when something slaps us on the face like life just did you. You will find your way... however you work it. There will be plenty of emotions and stages to go through. I just hope you can find a decent job and can feel stronger as the days go by! Hang in there.

TexasMaam -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 9:53:58 AM)
now wait a minute....you thought you could 'trust her' to what? Not grow? Not change? Not develop her own interests or cravings? Not ever follow her own desires because YOU want to be the sub and that's all that matters to you? You need to get a grip on the fact that people change. They grow. Their psyche and minds take them new directions. It's YOUR job to figure out which of those interests and directions the two of you can channel into your relationship, and which of them you cannot channel into your relationship. Isn't it possibe that she, once dominated, discovered submissive feelings and cravings that she wanted to explore? Isn't that exactly what you've done, yourself? I can understand a sub being frustrated over finding himself married to a sub. Anyone could understand that. It happens. There are plenty of sub/sub couples, Dom/Dom couples out there who experience the exact same frustrations you are lamenting over here on this board. What did you hope to find here on this board that you don't already know? Did you want sincere advice on when to end your marriage? Isn't that rather preposterous? Or were you seeking empathy, instead? If it's empathy you seek, then say so. If you need to express your anger at the fates, I can understand that, too, but don't come here on this board among a group of Fem Dommes and expect to get warm fuzzies for 'blaming' your circumstances on your partner. That duck just won't fly in this pond. You've received some very good advice here, already, without throwing down the blame card on your partner. Understand that she has discovered submissive needs, as you have. If you cut her off from any Dominant interaction, you will be actively making her as miserable as you are. Why not take a more mature approach, sit down with her, discuss the marriage with all of it's pro's and cons, and find a way for each of you, as a couple, to attend munches or group activities where you can both be submissive to Dommes who will accept your circumstances? That doesn't necessarily mean you will be completely fulfilled, but then neither will she. At least you would both find an outlet for your desires and cravings that would enable the marriage to remain intact. It just may be that the two of you are destined to part. No one can answer that but you and your partner. But if it were Me, and if I had a good marriage that filled a house with love, then I would examine EVERY other option before throwing in the towel. You owe her that much. You owe yourself that much. If there are children involved, both of you certainly owe them that much, and more. Texas Maam

pixelslave -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 10:03:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Pixel, My comments are coming from a place of... don't be a victim or lay blame and going the domestic abuse route for resources is a form of laying blame by a victim mindset. In this situation there is not a victim and the op is already struggling with seeing himself as a victim (of her financial imbalance and lack of communication they both had) without seeing how he allowed himself to be blind to what was happening. Lockit, I don't entirely disagree with your comments, but will note that he did turn over his fininces to his spouse as part of their initial power exchange agreement. As such, a lifestyle based organization seemed to me like a good place to start in looking for resources that might understand more of the dynamics involved with how he got to where he's at and perhaps be more useful to him by pointing him to kink aware programs or professionals that might prove beneficial. quote: The best resource to learn accountablity and resource would be a twelve step program which focuses on personal issues that result in situations where blaming others for what we take part in would be addressed. They also have resources. Using a program designed for domestic abuse is not easy when you haven't been domestically abused and that goes for women as well as men. I wasn't suggesting he "use" their program. I referred him to the web site to look for resources! Its up to a program to decide whether or not one can receive their assistance, no? A lifestyle friendly program would seem to be in a position to direct him to more apporpriate places than perhaps he'd be pointed to otherwise; not to imply that all his issues are lifestyle related, but they're certainly intertwined! [8\|] quote: We are only victim as long as someone is doing something to us and as long as we think like a victim. Promoting victim thinking or functioning is in itself a major hurdle to those who might eventually like to be healthy and happy. Being victimized at some point does not mean we continue to be victim and play the wounded victim... it should mean... I was victimized... it hurt... I feel this and that... but by god I won't continue to be a victim and will go out and live my life. Being strong enough to give up victim status and become a survivor who doesn't hold on to the wounds is what a survior is. Someone who holds on to the wounds is still victim and hasn't survived... just moved through it to get out of it enough to be out of it, but still victim to the mindset of victimization which hinders good emotional and mental growth and life growth. I don't disagree with the above at all. That being said, I think you also know that getting to that mindset is a process. It doesn't happen overnight and IMO, it's not going to happen as a result of people responding harshly to someone who's not at a point where they're ready to hear that message yet. [sm=m23.gif] - pixel

TexasMaam -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 10:13:31 AM)
Now let's look at the 'behavior' you're so angry about. Let's talk about money. Are you seriously considering ending your life over a paltry $25,000 bucks? Seriously? I've lost close to a million dollars in this economy, lost everything I worked so very hard for ALL of my adult life. Did I declare bankruptcy? No. Did I cry and wail wanting to commit suicide? No. Ridiculous. howahkan: If she has gone into debt w credit cards, etc, didn't YOU benefit from the meals out? Didn't YOU wear some of the new clothes? Didn't YOU go to the movies/concerts with? Didn't YOU enjoy the entertainment center, the dvd's, the cd's the kitchen and bath gadgets that the credit cards bought? Didn't YOU benefit from the tanks of gas in the cars, the vacations or roadtrips that racked it all up? If those monies went to buying children's clothes, books, movies, entertainment, weren't YOU part of the same familial equation? If so, it's time to belly up to the bar and pay the debts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If she's not working, you, as a couple, need to determine how both of you will work to pay off the debts. Will it be easy? Hell no. It will take grit and more than a little sacrifice for several years to come. Can you take the coward's way out and declare bankruptcy, file a Chapter 7 and be done with the debt? Sure you can, that's what the bankruptcy laws are there for. But you won't learn very much about finances and about taking responsibility for yourselves if you take the easy way out. That choice, like maintaining the marriage, is for the two of you to make. So there are your options. 1. Sacrifice and work like hell to pay off the debts and keep your credit worthiness. 2. Delcare bankruptcy and walk away from the debts while you walk away from your own principles. If you choose the more difficult path, namely, meeting your obligations as a couple, and both working to pay off the debts and change your lives so that you are both communicating openly about your future together, you might as well do the same with your BDSM intrests and include them in the communications mix. Either way, it's time to get up and get busy. TM

Lockit -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 10:15:53 AM)
When I go to a doctor, I may not be ready to hear their message, but I really have no choice because it is what I need to hear. It may take me some time to be able to fully hear it or digest it, but I would not want them to not tell me because I wasn't ready in that moment. Now, relating a doctor in this situation might seem a far fetched idea to many, but if you break it down, it is realistic. Just because I am not ready to hear what someone says... the doctor... doesn't mean that I don't need to hear it whether it registers or not. I do feel the op has more on the ball and can hear it... maybe not all, but some or enough to get to the next step. How many times in life have we had a light bulb moment and remembered someone saying something to us that we didn't quite get at the time? The information is there and it will register in the right moment. There is a time or season for all things. Even in the harshness of life or in dealing with people, there can be a good result. There is a time for harsh as well as kindness or any other thing. Whether we all know the exact moment something should be said or done is another story and we may be off the mark, but we are trying. There are times for kid gloves and time to take them off.

TexasMaam -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 10:19:44 AM)
pixel, honey, he didn't turn over his finances as an initial power exchange agreement. he abandoned his responsibility for them by dumping finances on her, expecting her to do everything and do everything to his satisfaction. ??????? hello ???????? He needs to admit, to himself, first of all, that he abandoned his responsiblity to himself and to the marriage to actively communicate about finances. I control finances in my home, but you bet your bottom dollar that my partner and I discuss every impact on those finances. Why would anyone abdicate their financial future to someone else's hands unless they are just plain lazy? Oh yes, I know, I know, there's all this drivel out there about financial domination, blah blah blah. Any man who turned over his paychecks to someone else, then woke up one day to find the money gone, is an idiot for crying 'foul!!!' if he never bothered to participate or communicate about where the money was going. Time for him to live and learn. BDSM is not an excuse for fiscal laziness or sloppy bookeeping. You know I love ya, pix. TM ps: I can't wait for the replies from subs who post outcries because 'they turn over their paychecks and THEIR domme has invested wisely, saved and managed funds admirably!' because that only proves my point: successful relationships are based upon communication: they must both know what's going on, financially, emotionally, physically, sexually; neither party can take a back seat and just go along for the ride only to sit up one day and say 'hey! how did we get here????'. >goes for a glass of bordeaux and will come back to volley responses after awhile! quote: Lockit, I don't entirely disagree with your comments, but will note that he did turn over his fininces to his spouse as part of their initial power exchange agreement. As such, a lifestyle based organization seemed to me like a good place to start in looking for resources that might understand more of the dynamics involved with how he got to where he's at and perhaps be more useful to him by pointing him to kink aware programs or professionals that might prove beneficial.

TexasMaam -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 10:49:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit There are times for kid gloves and time to take them off. Amen to that. I have to commend his partner for finally having the courage to own up to the financial mess. You know it had to be difficult for her. It's a shame she couldn't bring herself to do so before it got so out of hand. Yet, he's just as responsible for not running their own credit report from time to time to see where things were going, financially. Now he wants to bail out. Understandable, but not very commendable. Oy, veh! TM

LadyPact -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 11:00:32 AM)
TM and Lockit have made some excellent points. These are not abuse issues and they are not PE related issues. Just because a person's every want isn't fulfilled doesn't make it domestic violence and neither does poor money management. If I was stressed over a home improvement project, I wouldn't be headed to a center for grief counseling. On these money issues, the OP isn't without some responsibility. Exactly who's been bringing in the mail when the late/past due notices are coming? Who's been at home to answer the phone if bill collectors are calling? It wasn't a 27K debt overnight. As TM said, the OP was living beyond means right along with his wife. To Me, that means you work to help pay off the debt. (I'm a blue collar person, so I think that way to begin with.) Also, it's time to stop about the 25K that was given in the second year of marriage. I can't imagine the OP thinking that he would have lived comfortably staying at home for seven years on 25K and the proceeds of the sale of a car. If there's been food, clothing, shelter, and medical care, the OP got a pretty good return on his investment. If the trust is gone, then it's gone. From the sound of it, the OP doesn't have any other housing options at the moment, but it's not necessarily an emergency situation. There's not abuse happening here and it may be a better choice to continue the living arrangement until the OP has an income to support himself. It may help pay off the debts quicker anyway. On the past post issue, I'm going to say this for the second time in two days. If I ever need someone to investigate a person's motives from what they can glean from things that are posted around here, it's going to be CarrieO. She's got an eye for detail. Those details are actually important here. While you are not a victim in My opinion, OP, you are certainly not doing well mentally and emotionally. That isn't exactly the best circumstances to attempt to start a new relationship. Plus, you have that little problem in the fact that you are still married to this woman and in being so, you have a lot on your plate. Resolving your debts, the potential upcoming divorce (not to mention the grief that comes with that), your living situation, and your employment should all be a higher priority than finding a new Domme. And you're writing about considering suicide to boot? That's a heck of a lot of baggage to ask anyone to take on. It would be My opinion that you start fixing the issues that you already have, rather than make things more complicated. With some work, most of this could be settled within a year.

Elisabella -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 2:29:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix quote: ORIGINAL: howahkan 4. And this is what I resent most about you post Elisabell. Your post is just plain mean spirited. You don't care about anyone except yourself. You're just slicing and dicing a sub for the pure pleasure of doing so without any consideration for the damage you may do. I understand it when a Mistress does mean things for fun in a relationship but you are being heartless and cruel to inflict pain and suffering just for the fun of it. Go straight to hell. Please don't blame the dommes for Elisabella, she's a sub. [:D] Please don't blame the subs for me either, I'm a switch. You really haven't gotten the sense that I do what I want when I want it? LOL.

Elisabella -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 2:41:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: howahkan quote: Lockit Wrote: Oh now wait a minute. This man is not abused and has no reason to call a domestic abuse line or support group for help! If anyone has abused this man, it is himself. Just read his other post! I agree with this completely. I don't think of myself as abused. I resent being left in the dark about the finances. I know I turned over me finances to her, so in a way I left myself in the dark. But even more then that I kick myself in the ass for not seeing there was a problem. We have hundreds of DVDs/VHS movies and somewhere around 4000 books. Stacks of junk with no real value. I just assumed she was living within our means. quote: Elisabella Wrote: You are being SO passive-aggressive here. Saying "I take blame for everything" but refusing to take RESPONSIBILITY for any of it. Just cut and run and find another Domme to take you in and pay your bills? Good God man you're in your 50's, you can't blame your wife for being fiscally irresponsible if your reaction to debt is "oh shit, gotta go, have fun paying that off hon." 1. I will be paying half of this debt off. I made that commitment when I signed the Debt Consolidation Agreement. 2. I would never expect a Domme to pay my bills. I will just start another business and make my own money. 3. Regardless of what kind of relationship a person is in, whither it be lovers, business partners or family. It's all about trust and my trust in this relationship is gone forever. 4. And this is what I resent most about you post Elisabell. Your post is just plain mean spirited. You don't care about anyone except yourself. You're just slicing and dicing a sub for the pure pleasure of doing so without any consideration for the damage you may do. I understand it when a Mistress does mean things for fun in a relationship but you are being heartless and cruel to inflict pain and suffering just for the fun of it. Go straight to hell. Oh I totally feel you on the trust thing. Don't take my post as a personal insult, I really do tend to be ridiculously blunt and you're like the 100th person on these forums to feel the wrath of my opinion. When I read the initial post it really came across as blaming her, and your other post which stresses you're looking for a financially independent self employed Domme in combination with this one made it seem as though you're looking to leave this relationship only once you've found a place to go in a new one. Serial monogamy. It's (usually) really unhealthy. The main points of my post still stand though - in the US, debt is not unheard of, it's a rare person who doesn't have at least 10k in debt by the time they're 30-40, usually paid off before retirement. It just sorta comes up. I think you're looking at the money as "oh my god 27 thousand dollars in debt" when really it's only 3,000 a year of each year you were together. That's one hospital bill, one year's worth of gas for the car, slightly less than 1/10 of her income. Yeah it does suck to be in debt for stuff like books and movies but it's really not an unworkable debt. What I should have also stressed in my first post is that I do completely agree with you on the trust thing - she should have kept you informed about the status of the finances. Of course, you can also argue that you should have asked, or asked at the beginning when you turned over the financial planning to her that she would give you a yearly status report type of thing. You did let it go for 9 years, not really caring about the financial status enough to bother asking (I assume. If you did ask and she lied I apologize) and it's possible she really doesn't see this as a lot of debt. If she had a lot of student loans, for example, 27k might seem like nothing in comparison. Anyway I do wish you the best of luck, I would definitely take some alone time if I were you, live on your own and get a sense of it before looking for another relationship...they say that you should take 1/4 of the time you were in the relationship to heal and be single, for you that would be a bit over 2 years...I'm not saying to follow it to the day or anything but give yourself at least a year to end the marriage and get a sense of self, so you know who you are before you enter your next (hopefully better and more fulfililng) relationship.

Venatrix -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 2:55:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Please don't blame the subs for me either, I'm a switch. You really haven't gotten the sense that I do what I want when I want it? LOL. Oh, I absolutely have had that sense. Your posts have never struck me as coming from someone who had much self-mastery. Don't be surprised if the switches don't want to take any credit for you, either.

pixelslave -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 2:59:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TexasMaam pixel, honey, he didn't turn over his finances as an initial power exchange agreement. he abandoned his responsibility for them by dumping finances on her, expecting her to do everything and do everything to his satisfaction. ??????? hello ???????? He needs to admit, to himself, first of all, that he abandoned his responsiblity to himself and to the marriage to actively communicate about finances. [sm=horse.gif] I never said I'd do what he did! I also wouldn't say I thought it was prudent or that they had a healthy relationship full of open and honest communication! [X(] quote: You know I love ya, pix. TM That I do Ma'am and right back at ya! [;)] - pixel (pixel tip toes out of room wearing his best flame proof asbestos suit) [sm=diethreaddie.gif]

Elisabella -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/1/2009 4:43:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Please don't blame the subs for me either, I'm a switch. You really haven't gotten the sense that I do what I want when I want it? LOL. Oh, I absolutely have had that sense. Your posts have never struck me as coming from someone who had much self-mastery. Don't be surprised if the switches don't want to take any credit for you, either. I prefer to take both credit and blame for myself, thank you.

howahkan -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/2/2009 6:38:47 AM)
quote: TexasMaam now wait a minute....you thought you could 'trust her' to what? Not grow? Not change? Not develop her own interests or cravings? Not ever follow her own desires because YOU want to be the sub and that's all that matters to you? We discussed this for three months. I wanted to be absolutely sure I was getting into a Domme/sub relationship before I sold everything I owned, relocated from Las Vegas to Denver and changed my life forever. quote: TexasMaam You need to get a grip on the fact that people change. They grow. Their psyche and minds take them new directions. And if one of your subs said one day that he or she wanted to be your Dom/me, I'm so sure you would say "Sure, Your psyche and mind have taken you to a new direction, please let me be your sub." quote: TexasMaam If it's empathy you seek, then say so. If you need to express your anger at the fates, I can understand that, too, but don't come here on this board among a group of Fem Dommes and expect to get warm fuzzies for 'blaming' your circumstances on your partner. If I wanted empathy or "warm fuzzies" I would have posted anywhere except in a forum called "Ask a Mistress". (grin) quote: TexasMaam Are you seriously considering ending your life over a paltry $25,000 bucks? Seriously? You are right. I did not word the sentence correctly when I wrote it. I seriously considering ending my life over a betrayal of trust. Money comes and goes and if one works hard they can always get more. Trust on the other hand is worth more than gold or diamonds. Without trust there can be no relationship. She has lost my trust forever. Please allow me to post rest of your comments TexasMaam that have any value quote: ... Since you are wrong about the first four points and since the rest of your points are of no value I have to ask the following question. Why would I listen to anything you have to say? The only thing you did manage to do is out-shine Elisabellain with the rest of comments. You disguised your comments as some kind of tough love but they were unnecessarily harsh and completely off the point. You don't know what you are talking about. If I cannot trust my life partner then who can I trust? I waited a year to turn over my finances so I could see how she handled her finances. I turned over my finances as a symbol of trust, not fiscal laziness. TRUST is the cornerstone of any relationship. Once it is violated it can never be restored. It seems that all of your so-called empathy is completely slanted to the female. Hmmm. Gee I wonder if that's because your a Femdom? TexasMaam's entire profile "The older I become, the less I pay attention to what men say, and the more I watch what they do"

howahkan -> RE: How bad should it be before you leave? (11/2/2009 6:54:16 AM)
The glue that holds all relationships together, including the relationship between the leader and the led is trust and trust is based on integrity. ~ Brian Tracy The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them. ~ Ernest Hemingway A good marriage is at least 80 percent good luck in finding the right person at the right time. The rest is trust. ~ Nanette Newman

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