RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 11:05:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

This makes me sick, and I hope every "kid" who watched and did nothing to help is prosecuted. I'm equally sickened by the teachers, who seem to be too busy covering their asses to actually care about what happened to this girl. As for the participants, they need to go down on adult charges, regardless of age. An adult crime should have adult consequences.

quote:

Tho- in this case it seems a regional demention is in it.  I mean with those Californians it is fun to have a shooting at a graduation.   cheap thrills.

I seriously hope that was a bad attempt at humor [8|]




As the girl was fifteen, they don't have to charge the little wankers who took pictures instead of calling the police with aiding and abetting. Possession of child pronography is seen as a far more serious matter than rape by the American legislature, isn't it?



barelynangel -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 11:07:55 AM)

I am curious, if you found out that one of your kids ended up watching such a thing and didn't report it or go inside the school and find one of the four cops who were at the dance or an adult or something, what would you do as a parent?  Seeing the law cannot prosecute them,

Would you report him/her to the authorities as a potential witness?
or as Moonhead just pointed out in possession of child porn on his/her phone if they have it and especially sent it out?
Would you report him/her to the school?
Take care of it on your own? If so, how? 
What would your motive for whatever you do be? 
How would you explain it to your kid?
Are any of you talking to your kids about this incident to explain what you see as wrong and what they should do in such a situation?

Many people have kids, so i am curious how you think you would handle it if your kid happened to be one of the ones watching?

angel



CalifChick -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 11:17:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I am curious, if you found out that one of your kids ended up watching such a thing and didn't report it or go inside the school and find one of the four cops who were at the dance or an adult or something, what would you do as a parent? 


Have them evaluated by a mental health professional to determine if they're a sociopath. 

Cali



Lockit -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 11:55:54 AM)

My kids were raised around my work and were made aware of things that happen in life as early as they could be told and understood in some way. By the time they were between the ages of three and seven they were living in the shelter I directed for a number of months until I got it under control from the previous director and were around all the calls for action and such. Our home was also a shelter to many. We didn't over expose them, but they did hear some things from time to time and they were not put at risk or harmed by knowing a bit more than the average child. In fact they became pretty good advocates themselves.

My fear would be that they would jump in there and get themselves killed. I can't see one of them not doing something about it and at the minimum, they would have called for help. I know they brought friends to me that had situations going on and continue to help people they run into that have something going on.

I can't imagine it any other way with the way they were raised. Everyone they knew were involved in some sort of ministry or agency that helped society.



barelynangel -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 12:37:06 PM)

Lockit, i am sure every parent would want to believe the way their children are raised that at the minimum they would have gone or called for help.   And i am sure every parent can make the argument that isn't how i raised them, the experience of this or that etc so they wouldn't do what these kids did. 

But 12 kids of parents who probably can't believe or don't believe their child would do this, DID do this, what if one of them were yours?

I am not looking for parents to jump in here and say well my kids wouldn't do such a thing, we all know MOST parents would believe that to be true, which is why i asked the question that i did, what IF you found out it was one of your kids.

angel



Lockit -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 12:48:19 PM)

I can understand what you are saying... but some parents being in shock wouldn't have the history that my family did and we were in action. My one son risked himself against a huge man to protect a daughter being abused. I have no doubt my kids would have and would do the right thing. And that isn't denial... that is how it was around our house.

I'm sorry you don't want to hear of decent people raising decent kids that actually turn out decent...

But how about this... my one son... my problematic son who as an adult got into drugs... was a tiny child and was being threatened and wouldn't tell me about it... so he took a knife to school. He was caught with it... the police were called and when I walked in... the police officer and the principal felt very sorry for my son. If that tell's you what I would do about my kid doing something really stupid.

To understand more clearly... Charlie as an adult was attacked by a convicted child molester, as he looked like a kid. He struggled with a depressive disorder and at one hundred and ten pounds became an oil rigger. That is a tough job with long hours and he started using drugs to handle the job and I believe his emotions over the assualt. That was the end of Charlie. But he was a decent young man who broke.



Moonhead -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 1:39:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I am curious, if you found out that one of your kids ended up watching such a thing and didn't report it or go inside the school and find one of the four cops who were at the dance or an adult or something, what would you do as a parent? 


Have them evaluated by a mental health professional to determine if they're a sociopath. 

Cali


I think it's antisocialsomethingorother disorder rather than a sociopath now.

barely, confiscating the phone is probably a start. You would want your kid to be able to call for help, which is why you get them a phone in the first place, but if they're just going to watch something like that and use it to take a few pictures? Words fail me, frankly. As you say, if this is the aftermath of a school party, they wouldn't even need to dial 911 as there's going to be a security presence near by they could call.
It's the most horrible story I've read for a long time. This is a hypothetical thing as I have no kids, and probably never will at my age, but fucking hell. I've never thought beating kids was a good idea, but I'm definitely warming to the notion after reading this story. To be honest, if I did have a kid who could watch something like that without doing anything about it, I'd probably put them in a fucking wheelchair.



sirsholly -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 1:46:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I am curious, if you found out that one of your kids ended up watching such a thing and didn't report it or go inside the school and find one of the four cops who were at the dance or an adult or something, what would you do as a parent? 


Have them evaluated by a mental health professional to determine if they're a sociopath. 

Cali

i agree with Cali that i would seek professional help.

And jump all over me if you like, but i would do my damnedest to keep it between the child, ourselves and a therapist only.



tazzygirl -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 1:52:24 PM)

ahem... mine wouldnt need a cell phone... his ass would be permanently grounded after i got done turning his phone over to the police and assuring his full cooperation to the cops. i raised him better than that. there were police within the building. IF nothing else, someone should have hauled their asses inside and reported it.

i would turn my son over to the police... hire him a damn good lawyer... and seek counseling.



CaringandReal -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 4:49:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Well gee, good to know its not new.   I mean 1958 no kidding.   Thanks for the trivia.


It wasn't just trivia. That event spawned hundreds of sociological studies aimed at dealing with the questions you're asking in your thread. Reading some of those studies might help one to understand this phenonenon more.



tazzygirl -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 4:52:12 PM)

1958... also the era of the marriage is sacred.. no one interefers for anything... mind your own business... she dressed that way, she was begging to be raped... ect ect.

Times have changed.... drastically... so have the empowerment of women, and the notions that we are cheap, taudry playthings for men to fuck or beat.

Unless you have something else to offer up, your data is outdated.



GoddessImaginos -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 5:02:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I am curious, if you found out that one of your kids ended up watching such a thing and didn't report it or go inside the school and find one of the four cops who were at the dance or an adult or something, what would you do as a parent? 


Have them evaluated by a mental health professional to determine if they're a sociopath. 

Cali


I think it's antisocialsomethingorother disorder rather than a sociopath now.

barely, confiscating the phone is probably a start. You would want your kid to be able to call for help, which is why you get them a phone in the first place, but if they're just going to watch something like that and use it to take a few pictures? Words fail me, frankly. As you say, if this is the aftermath of a school party, they wouldn't even need to dial 911 as there's going to be a security presence near by they could call.
It's the most horrible story I've read for a long time. This is a hypothetical thing as I have no kids, and probably never will at my age, but fucking hell. I've never thought beating kids was a good idea, but I'm definitely warming to the notion after reading this story. To be honest, if I did have a kid who could watch something like that without doing anything about it, I'd probably put them in a fucking wheelchair.


i have three grown sons, plus two more boys and a girl that i've inherited through marriage. Without getting way too society-is-going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket on everyone, let me just say *AMEN*, that i wholeheartedly second this post..



Termyn8or -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 5:48:50 PM)

FR

How brave are your kids then ? Will say two of them stand up to ten , or will they go with the crowd ? And why ?

I'll stand up to ten, with a gun. Say I got five shots, there are ten of them so they know I can't shoot all of them. So they may act against me, at least five of them win. That takes solidarity. It takes guts because each of them is thinking the same thing "Let it not be me who dies". That is how five bullets can stop ten people. I know I said to always shoot right away if you ever pull a gun, but this is different. And it is a hell of alot more risky. Even with a gun I might hesitate a bit, because I know what can happen.

Add to that the peer pressure, because these punks did not just fly in from bumfukt Egypt somewhere, the peer pressue is enourmous. I think today, to want someone that young to go against the crowd and risk all their social standing and even their life might be asking a bit too much. Even if they are not totally soulless, this takes alot of balls.

I don't think they should be put in jail, I think they should be raped. And then when they get home their Parents should consult the words of Chris Rock in "Feel The Pain" - NOW GO WALK IT OFF. How does that sound. no tax money pretty much, and it doesn't take away the most important years. The years when they learn compassion.

Compassion can lead a person to kill, and once learned is permanent. The older I get the more I would be willing to risk my life. I'll be pushing fifty next year and really, what do I have left, twenty good years if I am very lucky ? I would gladly trade that for the most important years in another's life.

Of course the actual perpetrators should be executed, because they are animals, and not the good kind. But definitely the onlookers should be raped. On TV if possible. Let them squeal and moan and cry about how bad it is. Then go up to them and ask them why ? Why were you crying like a little bitch ? Don't you know that nobody is going to come to help you, that nobody cares, that you are nothing but a piece of meat ?

Imagine the impact. I think it would be much more effective even than two decades in prison. Make the big bad leader cry for help in front of his followers. In fact let them all lose their mutual "respect" which is really codependency disguised.

I know assholes better than they know themselves. Know why ? Because there isn't much to know.

T



CalifChick -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 7:30:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

1958... also the era of the marriage is sacred.. no one interefers for anything... mind your own business... she dressed that way, she was begging to be raped... ect ect.  Times have changed.... drastically... so have the empowerment of women, and the notions that we are cheap, taudry playthings for men to fuck or beat.  Unless you have something else to offer up, your data is outdated.


Just because it was first really brought to public consciousness 45 years ago doesn't mean it's outdated (it was 1964, not 1958).  What is ironic is that people did NOT stand by and do nothing, listening to her screams all night.  The Times article that is popular gives that impression, but this account is the more generally accepted one - people thought it was a drunken lovers quarrel, particularly when Kitty got up and staggered down the street.  And the police WERE called; she had staggered off by the time they got there.  There is a shorter summary here.

September 2008, the Bystander Effect.

A description of the Bystander Effect - the more witnesses, the less likely they are to help.

A good reference list of studies about the Bystander Effect.

An article discussing the Bystander Effect (the reference list just above is from this article)


Cali




tazzygirl -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 7:48:01 PM)

According to what your articles say... they believed it was a "lovers quarrel" fitting into the idea that, at that time, people did not get involved in domestic disputes. And, according to these articles, only one or two actually could see what was happening.

This attitude has been portrayed in such movies as the "Burning Bed". Tracey Motuzick of Torrington, Conn was the woman who was stabbed 13 times, the knife was removed by the officers, but no attempt was made to restrain the husband, who subsequently stepped on her head, broke her neck, and left her paralyzed. This is the history of our "institution of marriage".

Again, much has changed since then. Are you suggesting that the actions of these kids, who have allegedly joked, laughed, filmed and encouraged the attacks are acting under that same mentality? Am i the only one who sees a grave difference between the two groups?



CalifChick -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 7:51:58 PM)

What I was saying is that the case generally held up to illustrate the bystander effect is one of the poorest examples of bystander effect.  However, if you read some of the other links, you will find other examples (the 2008 subway example is but one) plus studies of the effect.  In the case here, you have a combination of mob mentality AND the bystander effect.

Cali



tazzygirl -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 7:53:27 PM)

Sadly i see alot of excuses being made for our own failures as parents, teachers and role models.



littlewonder -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 8:01:14 PM)

I'd like to say "that's not how I raised my daughter". I'd like to believe that but in reality I don't always know what she is doing when out with her friends or how she is acting. I'm not with her 24/7. Group mentality and peer pressure can be extremely strong. For all I know she could be one of those kids who was watching and/or filming on their cameras.

I would hope that she would walk away from it, not get involved and call 911 on her phone so that she stays anonymous and doesn't get in the middle of it all. Call me selfish but I'd rather mine be safe as well.

If I found out she was one of those kids I'd be extremely disappointed in her, we'd most likely have an all out hot and heavy argument and she would be in some deep therapy, at which point we would probably speak to the therapist as to what the options should/would be and what would be best for all involved.



LadyPact -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 8:06:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I am curious, if you found out that one of your kids ended up watching such a thing and didn't report it or go inside the school and find one of the four cops who were at the dance or an adult or something, what would you do as a parent?  Seeing the law cannot prosecute them,


I somewhat answered this earlier, but your question are now a bit more specific.

Would you report him/her to the authorities as a potential witness?  Absolutely.

or as Moonhead just pointed out in possession of child porn on his/her phone if they have it and especially sent it out?  Without a doubt.

Would you report him/her to the school?  The school would be the last of My kid's worries.

Take care of it on your own? If so, how?  There would be some of that.  Some people won't like this answer.  It is not PC.  If you are offended easily, don't read this.

My youngest is 18.  That makes him an adult.  I am usually not a violent person.  However, I would probably beat him within an inch of his life.  At that point, even though I know I'd be arrested as well, I would call the police.  Yes, we would both go to jail, but I would be the only one getting an attorney that I would be paying for.  After I made bail, I would go back home and start packing everything that belongs to him and putting it in storage because he would not be living with Me ever again,.

What would your motive for whatever you do be? Rage, disgust, and shame.

How would you explain it to your kid?  That 'kid' has been raised by Me for 18 years.  He is already very well aware of the difference between right and wrong.  He knows My opinions on brutal crimes.  I wouldn't have to explain My reaction.  He already knows what it would be.

Are any of you talking to your kids about this incident to explain what you see as wrong and what they should do in such a situation?  As I was reading this thread and the links last evening, he asked Me about it.  I didn't talk to him about it right away.  To be perfectly honest, I was a little too moved by the article to discuss it right away.

I have since then.  All of My answers here were covered in that discussion.

Many people have kids, so i am curious how you think you would handle it if your kid happened to be one of the ones watching?

angel
I think I've answered most of that.  Of course, that would be after I finished throwing up.



CalifChick -> RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's your cell to get a pic. (11/2/2009 8:19:39 PM)

Umm okayyyyyy... scientific research is now "excuses"?  Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree (although I'm not entirely sure what we're disagreeing on).

Perhaps learning how to counteract the bystander effect should be given more press:  Single out one person, pointing to them if you can, and specifically TELL that person what you want them to do*.  Make it very clear that you are talking to that ONE person. If one person steps in to help, the others standing around are far more likely to also step in.

*"Take out your phone and call 911", "get the hose and turn on the water", "grab his collar and pull him off me", etc.

Cali



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