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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 12:49:14 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

It was not that long ago some American flew low and cut off a condola sending 6 to their deaths. It was against the rules but happened all the time.

So maybe they do think they are sovereign.


I’m not questioning Italy’s sovereignty. I’m questioning the appropriateness of trial in absentia.


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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 2:38:54 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

It was not that long ago some American flew low and cut off a condola sending 6 to their deaths.    It was against the rules but happened all the time.

So maybe they do think they are sovereign.   But that thought is mute when you factor in the Lisbon treaty and the global carbon tax at copanhagan next month.

So the judges outburst is merely window dressing. A show.

As to the Vatican they could have done more to stop the wars in the mid east.  Tho most of churches have been pretty quiet about that.   Thou shall not kill.   hmmm.    So yes- teh Vatican with all of its wealth and influence is woefully silent toward a bunch of dead arabs... all for a phony war, based on fake evidence of WMDs.  Thou shall not lie.
So it does appear laws apply to some but not to others.


The Arabs aren't Catholic, so what does it have to do with the Vatican?

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 2:40:13 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Moon,

It just shows that its a world wide conspiracy and they are in cahoots.

yanno, connect the dots?

LOL

Ron

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 2:41:20 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

It was not that long ago some American flew low and cut off a condola sending 6 to their deaths. It was against the rules but happened all the time.

So maybe they do think they are sovereign.


I’m not questioning Italy’s sovereignty. I’m questioning the appropriateness of trial in absentia.


So the Swiss shouldn't be extraditing Roman Polanksi?
How about Carlos The Jackal and Leila Khaled? Should they not have been tried in absentia because they couldn't be arsed turning up when they were subpoenaed?

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 2:42:20 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Moon,

It just shows that its a world wide conspiracy and they are in cahoots.

yanno, connect the dots?

LOL

Ron

Obviously I'm another dupe of the conspiracy.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 2:46:33 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Further along the lines of Moonheads argument, look.......

The Italians sent a pointed, sort of embarrassing message to the administration, outside of diplomatic channels that they don't like their sovereignty mucked about and CIA canoodling thru the highways and trattorias of Italy.

Of course they were tried in absentia, can you imagine the repercussions if they would have been tried in camera?

The message was the thing, not the guilt or innocence and demand for incarceration.

Anybody able to spell nuance and politick?

Ron

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 2:55:32 PM   
frazzle


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Status: offline 		i may be on the wrong thread here but why is the croat whos name i cant spell dictatimg his own trial.

the war criminals etc are chosen by the winners.

Have the US been prosicuted for hiroshima. no and they wont be

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 2:57:30 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Nor will GWBush be prosecuted for invading Iraq.

hard to deal with, when we can put a tommy gun in anyones mouth.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 3:06:01 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Thou shall not lie.
So it does appear laws apply to some but not to others.



It is, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

And it applies to a rabbinical court. 

And there were WMD, there just were not any nukes. 

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 3:23:16 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Thou shall not lie.
So it does appear laws apply to some but not to others.



It is, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

And it applies to a rabbinical court. 

And there were WMD, there just were not any nukes. 

Were they? I thought Hussein had used them all on the Kurds by the start of the '90s.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 3:29:59 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, if he had anything left after IranIraqWar, they were either blown up, or offloaded into Isreal and Saudia Arabia in Desert Storm.

Yeah, we provided him pretty much what he had, including some tanks from russia and china, which we took out like swatting flies then too.

They had bicycles and turbans was about it.
And some electricity, plumbing, that sort of thing.


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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 3:33:35 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

So the Swiss shouldn't be extraditing Roman Polanksi?


Polanski wasn't tried in absentia. He pled guilty, then fleed the jurisdiction before sentencing.

quote:

How about Carlos The Jackal and Leila Khaled? Should they not have been tried in absentia because they couldn't be arsed turning up when they were subpoenaed?


I don't know about the details of those cases but if they were tried in absentia, then it was wrong. It is not about whether the defendent is a nice guy or an evil asshole. It's about respecting other peoples rights (even people we loath, especially the ones we loath) because if rights don't apply to everyone, they are menaingless.


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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 3:37:06 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
quote:

Trial in absentia is a commonly used legal device for dealing with people who are hiding in another country when their case comes before the beak, you'll find.

Yes it is but that doesn't make it right.

Oh please do you think they are saying: "damnit those Italians didn't let us turn up in court for that trial?"

They are the ones that stayed away they could have been there if they wanted to.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/5/2009 3:39:41 PM >

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 3:39:07 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		So why don't you have any issue with the fact that what the Italians have tried these guys for is abducting somebody and shipping them off to be detained without the benefit of any legal proceedings? You're cool with that, but trying the spooks who abducted the lad is out of order? How does that work?

(In answer to Marc2b: no idea why it came up saying pahunkboy)

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 11/5/2009 3:51:08 PM >

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 3:46:55 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Two wrongs don’t make a right. How can they be certain they are convicting the right people if the accused don’t have the right to confront their accusers and the evidence against them? You’ve already proclaimed them guilty but how do you really know that they are? Or is merely the suspicion that someone has commited a heinous crimes sufficient to violate their rights? If you don’t respect the rights of others, on what basis do you assert your own rights?



I`m wounded by your right wing bluster, but wait, I remember some facts. The CIA station chief in Milan refused to co-operate with the court. He had said in an interview he was only doing as ordered by his superiors. Shades of Nuremberg there huh.

You overlook the fact he didnt take his chance to have his say in court, unlike the poor sucker that was kidnapped and tortured, and didnt get such an offer.




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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 3:57:57 PM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		OK, a 30 second Wikipedia search turned up the facts on being tried in absentia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_absentia

Basically, you can't be tried in absentia, because it is obviously unfair....

EXCEPT IN CERTAIN CASES

Such cases are where you voluntarily flee to avoid being prosecuted. Which is the case here; the American could have been present for their trials, but voluntarily chose not to appear.

There is a list at the bottom of the page where it shows that a number of people have been tried in absentia.

People, it took me less time to research this than you spent in arguing about it.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 4:08:11 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Im not arguing about it, I`m pointing out the stupidity of comparing it to someone being kidnapped and tortured.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 4:33:07 PM   
Eigenaar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Well, theyve really gone and done it now havent they?

An Italian court today sentenced a whole bunch of former CIA operatives to 8 years in prison for the kidnapping by way of "extraordinary rendition" of an Egyptian who was taken from Italy for "special interrogation techniques".

Sadly, or rather happily, depending on point of view, the trial and sentencing took place in absentia and the Italian government is refusing to seek extradition of those responsible. Personally I think happily, because as guilty as they may have been proven to be, I dont think the operatives should be the ones facing the music.

E
They should even put the cleaning woman of Guantanamo away for life if she knew it was wrong, as they should the clergyman who was on Dutch tv and got emotional saying he left because he no longer did want to be part of the injustice.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 4:34:29 PM   
Eigenaar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: frazzle

i may be on the wrong thread here but why is the croat whos name i cant spell dictatimg his own trial.

the war criminals etc are chosen by the winners.

Have the US been prosicuted for hiroshima. no and they wont be

The US do not recognize the war tribunal in the Hague and even created an invasion act saying they will invade their closest ally the Netherlands as soon as an American faces what ''the croat'' is facing. You are right the war criminals are chosen by the winners, according to international law both Iraq and Afghanistan are illegal wars. This means the Dutch government should be in the same position as ''the croat'', together with the other American allies.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 9:25:09 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Oh please do you think they are saying: "damnit those Italians didn't let us turn up in court for that trial?"

They are the ones that stayed away they could have been there if they wanted to.


Irrelevant. If the accused has not shown up in court then you use whatever legal means (having the police catch them if they are in your jurisdiction, extradition if they are caught in the territory of a nation you have an extradition treaty with) you have to compel them to appear in court. This has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with one’s feelings on the matter. The whole point is to be dispassionate. That is the first, necessary, step to protecting the rights of everyone. You can not let your emotions to allow you to make exceptions. The moment you allow for exceptions you lose both the moral and intellectual standing in which to assert your own rights.


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