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RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 1:21:57 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

Cameron Todd Willingham

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

It's difficult to support the appropriateness of killing someone for killing someone else. Plus if you wait a few years, you usually find that once the immediate grief is over, most family of the murder victims do not support this.

If they who are the most affected do not want vengeance, then who am I to? I'd prefer to be Abel, not Cain.

Where do we get this from? All I know is that when I was working in news I helped with the coverage of several executions. There was never one in which there were not members of the immediate family there who not only wanted to see the execution happen but still wanted to help do it. One here in FL, the guy had murdered a child. It was 20 years before his execution. There is now a park that was named after the child. The family of the child threw a huge celebration in the park right after the execution. It was to celebrate the memory of the child and also to celebrate that the execution finally happened.

So do you volunteer the person you most love in the world to be the next innocent executed? Cameron Todd Willingham was innocent of the crime he was executed for. As a matter of fact the crime didn't even happen. Think of Cameron's family. The state took his life for nothing. Bloodthirsty gullible fools celebrated the night he died but it didn't bring justice or closure to anyone. His children died in a horrible accident and he was killed by the state in a headlong rush to punish someone for a crime that it turns out was not committed by anyone at all.

(in reply to flcouple2009)

Post #: 21

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 3:06:14 PM

Termyn8or

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A case like that of Cameron Todd Willingham is indeed proof. It is proof that the system is deeply flawed and needs to be fixed. It does not prove that execution is wrong to the core. When something like that happens, we should be looking at those bloodthirsty gullible fools and maybe they need a ride in the electric chair as well. They certainly need something. A wrongful execution is probably a pure accident very rarely, but we have prosecutors rated by their conviction rate and judges hailed for being tough on crime. Of course they want to "get good marks" on their "report card". And they are not the only ones.

Investigators frequently decide who did in a very short time and proceed to build a case against one possible defendant, and ignore evidence that runs contrary to their theory. The system cannot work effectively like this. It works, but HUGE mistakes are made, guilty are let free while innocents are punished. Instead of conviction rate, could we get a figure on conviction rate of the guilty only ?

But I did not want to seperate the issue in exactly that way. I was wondering just how many of the fence sitters would favor the execution of someone who's crimes are as heinous as the one recently discovered in Cleveland. Is the murder of one less serious than the murder of ten ?

If we take that a step further, how about Nazi war criminals. I can't recall who it was but one them proclaimed in court after the war "six million of you for one of me" and went on that he figured it was a fair exchange, but I don't remember the exact words. What about a guy like that ? Has no problem admitting guilt and proclaiming that he would pretty much do it again if given the chance.

Let's say in a hypothetical situation where guilt is doubtless. For example years from now maybe they can scan the human brain and know for sure when one is guilty. In that case all arguments against capital punishment that are based wrongful executions are rendered moot. Let's say there is absolutely no doubt. How many hands are still up against the death penalty ?

Don't get me wrong, wrongful executions are a good argument at this point in time, but that wasn't the hair I was trying to split. To any of us with a shred of decency wrongful executions are a BIG deal. But then there were at least ten wrongful executions on the east side of Cleveland weren't there ?

While I'm at it, I'll tear the insanity defense to shreds. Just for the record, anyone who kills ten Women is likely to be insane. His crimes just about prove that in the first place. But do we accept that ? I say no. These insane types who become serial killers know enough to not jump off a bridge or step in front of a truck on the highway. They probably even know not to run with scissors. So why don't they know that if they kill ten people they will be killed ?

Oh, of course the urge is too strong, or the voices wouldn't shut up. He felt he had to do it. Well we can cure that in a jiffy. They can walk the green mile and be instantly cured forever.

Europe ? This country exists because a good number of people couldn't deal with life as it was in Europe, even in those days. They came here and guess what. They would hang horse thieves. Someone stealing your horse could cost you your life. Later in Chicago they had, for a time, the death penalty for auto theft, with a similar rationalization.

But then that's the way of the west I guess. Hangem high. Right or wrong. Maybe the difference between us and Europe really is the level of civilisation achieved. But I am not talking so much about the law, but the people.

And I really can't confirm it, but I have heard that investigations are conducted a bit differently across the pond. They will watch you for a long time and the have you dead to rights well before they arrest you. Maybe they don't crave instant gratification as US citizens do. Maybe they have a bit more patience. Maybe they are simply more "civilised".

But if admitting we are not is what it takes to purge our society of these ills, so be it.

T

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 22

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 3:24:39 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

I use to support the death penalty, but it really serves no purpose. It does not deter crime

I stopped reading your post here... you are wrong...Do some searching on the net for repeat murder offenders...It will be eye opening. It would be hard to kill again from the grave.

You should have kept reading, because it was a good post. You might also want to do some googling of your own, and research the difference between "deterring crime" and "preventing repeat offenses." There's a huge, and important, difference - one which completely undermines your argument. Capital punishment has been repeatedly proven not to deter crime.

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Post #: 23

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 3:30:44 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

A case like that of Cameron Todd Willingham is indeed proof. It is proof that the system is deeply flawed and needs to be fixed.

OK. When you, or anyone else, figures out a way to fix it such a way that you can guarantee innocent people won't be executed, get back to us and let us know. Then we might have something to talk about. In 2 and a half million years of human evolution, that one still hasn't been solved, and until it has been I don't see any reason to expect that it will be.

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Post #: 24

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 3:41:09 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

You could argue that it is because most of Europe is a disarmed society, but that would not be accurate. Even before Europe disarmed its population the murder rate was lower - even from non-gun related murders. Perhaps it is system of government, perhaps it is how Europeans are socialized in their societies, the age of the societies...

No, the U.S. society tends to be more violent than others in the "first world". I am sure that there are a large number of reasons for it and not a single reason that fits.

I agree. But whatever the reason or reasons, the fact remains that executing people clearly does not make a society safer, which was your original point. Therefore, making society safe is not a valid reason for executing people...

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
And that there are mistakes made in the system is part of an evolving process. With DNA testing now active I believe that the number of wrongful executions will be reduced. Yes, wrongful executions. I said it and it has happened and I still support the process because I believe that taking a life demands an ultimate penalty. All those bodies didn't just appear in that guy's yard and if convicted he should pay that penalty.

Are you aware that your argument has completely changed? Originally, the price had to be paid to keep us all safe. Now, you're saying that it has to be paid because murderers deserve to be killed. That's a completely different argument. You're saying that you want so badly to kill murderers, you're willing to kill innocent people just for the chance to kill murderers.

I'm sorry; I usually respect your posts, but I find this position morally repugnant and utterly barbaric. To put it mildly. I urge you to reconsider it, and reflect upon what it is in you that makes you so vengeful that you're willing to sacrifice innocent lives in order to have that vengeance - because really, that's all it is. Might as well call a spade a spade.

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Post #: 25

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 3:52:47 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Are the places where the system goes wrong? Yes, certainly. But it is a price all societies have to pay in order to maintain order.

That one paragraph is where your entire argument comes completely apart. If that were true, how would you explain the fact that every country in Western Europe has much lower homicide rates than the US, without having the death penalty? Clearly there is a way for societies to protect themselves against predators without having to pay that price.

Panda, are you still against the death penalty, even in cases like this? With bodies literally in the man's yard (and I believe home)? If they execute this guy (which I'm sure will take years to go through the appeals at his disposal on taxpayer dime) I highly doubt it's going to come back later that he didn't do it.

I have to be, LP. If you have a system that allows you to execute animals like this, then you have a system in which it is inevitable that - given a sufficient span of time - other people who are innocent will be executed. It's unavoidable.

And that's not even touching the moral aspect of the argument. It's not a question of whether the man deserves to die - clearly, he does. The question is whether the state has the right to kill him. Those are two separate issues that are often blended into one when this question gets debated. If the state has the right to kill monsters like this even when they are clearly guilty, the state essentially has the right to kill anyone at all as long as certain standards of evidence are met. I don't believe a government has the right to kill its own citizens, period. Under any circumstances.

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Post #: 26

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 4:09:07 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

Cameron Todd Willingham

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

It's difficult to support the appropriateness of killing someone for killing someone else. Plus if you wait a few years, you usually find that once the immediate grief is over, most family of the murder victims do not support this.

If they who are the most affected do not want vengeance, then who am I to? I'd prefer to be Abel, not Cain.

Where do we get this from? All I know is that when I was working in news I helped with the coverage of several executions. There was never one in which there were not members of the immediate family there who not only wanted to see the execution happen but still wanted to help do it. One here in FL, the guy had murdered a child. It was 20 years before his execution. There is now a park that was named after the child. The family of the child threw a huge celebration in the park right after the execution. It was to celebrate the memory of the child and also to celebrate that the execution finally happened.

Thankfully in New York we haven't had that. Instead after 9/11 there were several pregnant women left widowed by the collapse of the Towers from the firm of Cantor Fitzgerald alone. None of whom were crying out aloud for vengeance. None.

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Post #: 27

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 4:57:37 PM

OttersSwim

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I agree. But whatever the reason or reasons, the fact remains that executing people clearly does not make a society safer, which was your original point. Therefore, making society safe is not a valid reason for executing people...

Actually if you go back and read my post, my original point had nothing to do with keeping people safe. It had to do with maintaining order in a society via a social compact and a set of laws of behavior that we all openly or tacitly agree to abide by. Among those rules there are actions which society considers to be of extreme sanction such as murder. For that and a few other extreme sanction offenses, the penalty of conviction can, and in my opinion should, be the death of the offender. It has nothing to do with safety. It has to do with -order- and -consequence-.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Are you aware that your argument has completely changed? Originally, the price had to be paid to keep us all safe. Now, you're saying that it has to be paid because murderers deserve to be killed. That's a completely different argument. You're saying that you want so badly to kill murderers, you're willing to kill innocent people just for the chance to kill murderers.

I'm sorry; I usually respect your posts, but I find this position morally repugnant and utterly barbaric. To put it mildly. I urge you to reconsider it, and reflect upon what it is in you that makes you so vengeful that you're willing to sacrifice innocent lives in order to have that vengeance - because really, that's all it is. Might as well call a spade a spade.

Thank you for your opinion on this, but I disagree that my position changed at all. I know it is sort of a "hang'em high" stand, but in order for human society to work, there needs to be laws that maintain a level of order, and with those laws there need to be consequences. In my opinion, locking someone up for the remainder of their life in relative comfort at the expense of the people is not sufficient punishment for those extreme sanctioned offenses.

We live in a world where people fly planes into buildings, blow themselves up killing children, and start unnecessary wars where thousands of people die. It is very real, very ugly, and people die for many seemingly senseless reasons...I just happen to think that when a person is found to be in violation of an extreme sanction event, they should die for their crime.

No, it is not perfect and yes, some innocent people will be found guilty and executed by the State. That is terrible and regrettable. But for my part, I do not believe we should throw out the whole system because it is imperfect, but seek to improve it to its utmost. In our country, extreme offenders can be executed. It is a grave and serious matter and worthy of as much consideration as is possible which is why the appeals process is so lengthy. But it is the law of the land, and just as I do, you have the complete right to want to change that law to one of non-violence for extreme offenders. I salute you and respect your position, but as of this moment, I don't agree with it.

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Post #: 28

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 10:39:02 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
No, it is not perfect and yes, some innocent people will be found guilty and executed by the State. That is terrible and regrettable. But for my part, I do not believe we should throw out the whole system because it is imperfect

So do you volunteer your loved one to be the next innocent executed? If not why do you think someone else's loved one should be murdered by the state for no reason?

(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 29

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 10:40:13 PM

NihilusZero

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Hindsight appeal to emotion.

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Post #: 30

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 10:45:19 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

No, it is not perfect and yes, some innocent people will be found guilty and executed by the State. That is terrible and regrettable. But for my part, I do not believe we should throw out the whole system because it is imperfect, but seek to improve it to its utmost.

I'm struggling to find what errant brain pattern can possibly convince itself that the killing of an innocent person is acceptable so long as it is preceded and followed by enough death to other people you decide are horrible enough to be put in that position.

I propose that people who espouse these beliefs volunteer themselves (or a family member of their choosing) to be put to death as an innocent to genuinely demonstrate their devotion to such an imbecilic idea.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 11/5/2009 10:46:18 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 10:59:23 PM

Ialdabaoth

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It's not errant at all. It's just a heuristic.

We create heuristics because of the inherent energy costs of actually reasoning things out. It's actually smart to not over-think things.

And yeah, all heuristics fail in certain situations. You can't create a perfect pattern. The question is, is the pattern you've created good enough for you? Because it doesn't matter who else gets hurt; if the hurt doesn't reach your empathy threshold (and there are convenient and useful ways to prevent that), you won't care.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 32

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/5/2009 11:35:08 PM

Termyn8or

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I don't want to care but I have to. If I am to appeal too others for assistance in keeping my rights, I must return the favor, whether is it paying back or paying forward. It is my right to reasonably expect that Mom won't be killed at the ATM machine, or while out shopping. I think I am reasonable to expect that nobody intrudes in my house taking my shit. I think it is reasonable to expect that others act in accordance with the rules to some extent. After all if I don't I suffer the consequences.

What is the value of a human life ? That is in the mind of the holder of said life. If they want to spend it in this way, so be it. But pay the tab at the end. Include a 20% tip for curing whatever mental ills you may have.

And all of this; my opinion, is coming from a time in my life I really do care about other people. Think of back when I didn't. And think about all the people who never grew out of that stage, which I consider infantile, at least mentally.

Hangem high, but really, really if they are guilty and they deserve it. I don't care if you consider it revenge, I consider it the exisement of a cancer in society.

But the issue is indeed HUGE, whack the right people. The guilty. If we can't straighten this part out we are hopeless.

T

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 33

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/6/2009 12:34:48 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Putting a convicted murderer in prison at the expense of $40K per year with gyms, cable, libraries, free medical care...-that- is where the system is going wrong.

Where is this fantasy prison for violent offenders at? I'd like to know; I keep hearing these tales, but I've never seen one. Prisons have few and spartan priviliges to gain compliance and control over inmates. Violent, uncooperative prisoners don't enjoy these things. Sorry to break that to you, but inmates aren't having a huge party at your expense.

(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 34

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/6/2009 6:13:06 AM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

We live in a world where people fly planes into buildings, blow themselves up killing children, and start unnecessary wars where thousands of people die. It is very real, very ugly, and people die for many seemingly senseless reasons...I just happen to think that when a person is found to be in violation of an extreme sanction event, they should die for their crime.

That's a strange list for a death penalty discussion. People who fly planes into buildings or blow themselves up die in the commission of their crime. People who start unnecessary wars where hundreds of thousands die get relected president, serve full terms, then retire to Texas and earn money as a fucking motivational speaker.

You kill people when you can't control them. The state has the power to take a murderer and lock him up for the rest of his natural life. We have the power to control them and prevent them from killing again. I've never understood why people think life in prison is getting off easy. I'm pretty sure it would suck. I wouldn't agree with the death penalty even if it were possible to perfect the system. I think the death penalty is a sign of weakness.

(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 35

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/6/2009 6:22:01 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Even in the SuperMax prisons, convicted murders do kill again. It is usually their fellow inmates, but on occasion it is a guard or other prison employee. What I find funny is that they charge these prisoners again, send them to trial, and then give them another life sentence. Unless they are put in the isolation area, they can still kill.

If I were innocent, and faced with 20 years or more in some of the Max prisons, or death, I would rather have the quick death.

The death penalty is not a deterent, it is simply a way to prevent a person from ever doing that crime again. I believe the death penalty should be used in a very narrow scope.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne
We have the power to control them and prevent them from killing again.

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Post #: 36

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/6/2009 6:49:53 AM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Unless they are put in the isolation area, they can still kill.

So have a SHU penalty, not a death penalty.

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Post #: 37

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/6/2009 8:25:12 AM

OttersSwim

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It is in Buena Vista Colorado where someone I know was a prison guard. Firstly, Buena Vista is one of the most spectacular places on earth being right on the front range of the Collegiate Peaks in the beautiful mountains of Colorado.

Prisoners there enjoy cable tv, video games, recreational facilities, and gymnasiums. They have libraries, can go to school, get vocational training, free medical care, and three meals a day. And WE pay for all this.

If a prisoner and the guard that is watching him both develop prostate cancer, the prisoner will get massively better care than the guard will - The guard stands to loose work time, income, and possibly his job.

Is it hard to live in prison? Yea, but hey prison is supposed to be just a little bit bad for ya'...

Prison should be like this - everywhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Putting a convicted murderer in prison at the expense of $40K per year with gyms, cable, libraries, free medical care...-that- is where the system is going wrong.

Where is this fantasy prison for violent offenders at? I'd like to know; I keep hearing these tales, but I've never seen one. Prisons have few and spartan priviliges to gain compliance and control over inmates. Violent, uncooperative prisoners don't enjoy these things. Sorry to break that to you, but inmates aren't having a huge party at your expense.

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 11/6/2009 8:27:38 AM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/6/2009 11:16:06 AM

OrionTheWolf

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They do have that now, but even the SHU gets filled and there is not enough room. Not to mention the attacks that occur when they are going to court, hospital, or anything outside of that special unit. There are some seriously disturbed, humans in there that have no regard for any life, including their own. Their crimes have been meticulously recorded, and some have even been confessed to, so why not just end it? In these cases there is no question of innocense, they are "rabid" to the rest of society. Hell prisons have actually allowed some criminal elements to be created and prosper, look into the Aryan Brotherhood and how they came about, and what it took to finally break them up. They did everything that they did from prison, so locking them up is not always the answer either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Unless they are put in the isolation area, they can still kill.

So have a SHU penalty, not a death penalty.

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Post #: 39

RE: Death penalty, another angle - 11/6/2009 11:17:14 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Prisoners there enjoy cable tv, video games, recreational facilities, and gymnasiums. They have libraries, can go to school, get vocational training, free medical care, and three meals a day. And WE pay for all this.

Are you talking about this complex which doesn't house anyone higher than medium custody classification?

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