quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

not in response to Annarus but to people like willbur and sanity.....I find it strange that no other country gives you a free house, free tv, free bills, free anything. So why on earth would you expect the US to do something so ridiculously stoopid. No matter how socialistic they are, they dont provide free either.

One country that provides everything for their citizenry please??? One?? NO???
then stop using such pathetic bullshit as an argument. You really are showing yourselves up and not in a good way

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
If the government should provide you with health care, why shouldnt they provide you with a house? a car? a big screen tv? a personal masseuse?

You raise a good question-

I don't think the government owes anyone health care; but then I don't think the government owes anyone a public primary school system, a public secondary school system, a public college system, a public water system, a public sewage system, a public storm drain system, a public road system, a public utility system, a public library system, a public parks system, a public highway system, a public bus system, a public port and harbor system, a public disease control system, a public disaster relief system, a public aircraft control system, a public rail system, a public science research system, a public mail delivery system, a public ambulance system, a public fire suppression system, a public law enforcement system, a public court system, a public prison system, a public zoning and land use control system, a public building standards and enforcement system....

I don't find any of these things in the Constitution anywhere, do you?

I won't address each one individually, most if not all fall under the same category...promoting the GENERAL WELFARE, ie the country as a whole. Anarcho-capitalists would claim that even those items on your list should not be provided by the government, but I dont think there are any of those on this board.

If it were the governments role to promote INDIVIDUAL WELFARE, where health care clearly falls, it would have said so.

Now, why do most of the items on your list promote the GENERAL WELFARE? Just to single out a few...education is a social good...it benefits society as a whole to have an educated citizenry. Sewage, disease control; roads ports etc. , commerce and the economy; police, judiciary, prisons etc; public safety and so on.

So why have we decided to create these things? Most of the list I enumerated above were created during the 19th Century, and early 20th Century. Almost all of these were fought with arguments that it was none of the governments business to intervene in the workings of society, that this was not a Constitutionally mandated service.
All of them became accepted and embraced by the overwhelming majority of the population.

I strongly disagree that many of them at all, if any, were fought and eventually embraced.

We created these things not because we are "entitled" to them, but because it was recognized that society works better because of them.
exactly
When a child gets an education anywhere in societyno, when society as a whole is better educated we all benefit. You cannot bring it down to the level of an individual child.
, we all benefit; when there is a government run system of roads, sewers, storm drains, and utility grid, we all benefit.\


On the other hand, when someone gets sick and is unable to work as a result, we all suffer; no, we dontwhen people avoid treatment for lack of coverage, they end up in the emergency ward, for which we all pay double. if someone goes to the emergency room for non emergency care, turn them away. To the extent that routine care is not affordable by someone, then provide them with it. Dont overturn the entire system for those few.

Health care is not a perk, like a masseuse; it is a public good, a benefit to make our society more efficient and productive. Overall health, those things which CAN be controlled at a higher level benefits society. We already do those things. An individual's health, which is under their control, is not a public good, and youve shwon nothing to substantiate that it is. [color]

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Huge difference. Enemies and criminals are outside forces who's impact can be mitigated by military and police, government functions that an individual cannot replicate. Your health is a personal issue and largely unaffected by outside influences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

...promoting the GENERAL WELFARE, ie the country as a whole. Anarcho-capitalists would claim that even those items on your list should not be provided by the government, but I dont think there are any of those on this board.

If it were the governments role to promote INDIVIDUAL WELFARE, where health care clearly falls, it would have said so.

Now, why do most of the items on your list promote the GENERAL WELFARE? Just to single out a few...education is a social good...it benefits society as a whole to have an educated citizenry. Sewage, disease control; roads ports etc. , commerce and the economy; police, judiciary, prisons etc; public safety and so on

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
nope, Merc.....you take the logic to a slippery slope. And we just don't see national healthcare going that way in the developed countries.
Ron

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

not in response to Annarus but to people like willbur and sanity.....I find it strange that no other country gives you a free house, free tv, free bills, free anything. So why on earth would you expect the US to do something so ridiculously stoopid. No matter how socialistic they are, they dont provide free either.

One country that provides everything for their citizenry please??? One?? NO???
then stop using such pathetic bullshit as an argument. You really are showing yourselves up and not in a good way

This whole post is a non sequiter. Just because other countries dont provide something, and do provide health care doesnt in any way say they are CORRECT in providing health care. Rant on.

quote:

nowhere is such a slippery slope extant or contemplated,

quote:

my 'group of we' is the planet we inhabit

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

...promoting the GENERAL WELFARE, ie the country as a whole. Anarcho-capitalists would claim that even those items on your list should not be provided by the government, but I dont think there are any of those on this board.

If it were the governments role to promote INDIVIDUAL WELFARE, where health care clearly falls, it would have said so.

Now, why do most of the items on your list promote the GENERAL WELFARE? Just to single out a few...education is a social good...it benefits society as a whole to have an educated citizenry. Sewage, disease control; roads ports etc. , commerce and the economy; police, judiciary, prisons etc; public safety and so on

......hmmm, mind if i ask why you so quickly classify health care for all as an individual welfare rather than a general one? You even cite disease control as a general welfare issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

By any objective analysis, having a healthy society benefits all members of that society.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I disagree with your statement here.  Health is a public and government issue as well as personal.  The CDC covers medical conditions, diseases, life stage health care, environmental health concerns. etc. The FDA covers food and drug safety.

As for other outside influences say your neighbor's house catches on fire because of smoking in bed or bad electrical connections and yours burns down too.  How about being severely injured or killed by a drunk driver?  First I said "primarily", second, your burning your own house down has consequences for the public around you. It puts them at risk and even if they escape it, it lowers their property value. Not sure where the "drunk driver" comment comes into play. Thats already covered by mandatory auto insurance.

The elderly and unmentionables in your family are exposed to a highly contagious virus because someone did not stay home when they were infected? A CDC issue, not an indivudial health care issue. You are injured because of poor safety conditions at your place of work or on a public road?  OSHA and public roads, both included in what I said are appropriate. During a robbery you are beaten and your spouse is raped?  Criminal issue

In these examples you would be relying on several government services; the fire dept, ambulance, EMT's and police for starters.  Here in California it is Cal Trans that works on the roads.  The treatment for illness or injury could well be at a public hospital, you could obtain vaccines at the local health dept. etc.  If you go to clinic that is sliding scale then the government is providing grants to cover the persons who are uninsured or underinsured.Agreed. A clinic model for the needy is a good solution. It also doesnt cost 1.2 trillion over 10 years, and in fact could be paid for by tort reform alone.

I agree with the statements regarding health care benefitting families, the local community and society as a whole.

On a more personal note -

Several years ago the agency where I worked was shut down because of financial mismanagement by the board of directors.  The financial collapse was complete and the departing staff could not even receive COBRA.  Because of previous medical conditions (genetic) I was denied private insurance and I had to move in with family members to survive.

I started working part-time again for a few dollars above minimum wage, no insurance was available.  A severe case of food poisoning landed me in the ER.  Several hundred dollars was due that could not be paid. In this situation the hospital was Catholic and I was able to write a letter explaining the circumstances and was not sent to a collection agency.  But this option would not have been available at all hospitals.

And as an FYI, the insurance agent that told me the private insurance had been denied explained the "black listing" that occurrs once this happens.  He explained that any time I would apply for private health insurance in the future that one of the questions would be whether or not I had been denied coverage.
To not reveal this information is a felony violation and the individual can be prosecuted.  Here are examples from other persons facing this problem -

http://discusionpoint.com/?p=924

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/apr/01/medicare-sure-beats-private-insurance/

(format edit)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Huge difference. Enemies and criminals are outside forces who's impact can be mitigated by military and police, government functions that an individual cannot replicate. Your health is a personal issue and largely unaffected by outside influences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


To be fair, there is a counter argument. Social Darwinism. The idea that those members of society who can't afford health care actually do need to die earlier than those who can afford it in order to maintain a healthy population. i absolutely reject that argument, but i suspect it is the elephant in the room for a number of our posters who dislike universal health care, not all of them but some.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


To be fair, there is a counter argument. Social Darwinism. The idea that those members of society who can't afford health care actually do need to die earlier than those who can afford it in order to maintain a healthy population. i absolutely reject that argument, but i suspect it is the elephant in the room for a number of our posters who dislike universal health care, not all of them but some.

You didn't have to wait long to be proven right, did you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


To be fair, there is a counter argument. Social Darwinism. The idea that those members of society who can't afford health care actually do need to die earlier than those who can afford it in order to maintain a healthy population. i absolutely reject that argument, but i suspect it is the elephant in the room for a number of our posters who dislike universal health care, not all of them but some.

You didn't have to wait long to be proven right, did you?

Too bad its a total misstatement of what social darwinism is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
However there is also no reason for you to demand that others to foot the bill for your misfortune through subisidizing your insurance premiums.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


To be fair, there is a counter argument. Social Darwinism. The idea that those members of society who can't afford health care actually do need to die earlier than those who can afford it in order to maintain a healthy population. i absolutely reject that argument, but i suspect it is the elephant in the room for a number of our posters who dislike universal health care, not all of them but some.

You didn't have to wait long to be proven right, did you?

Too bad its a total misstatement of what social darwinism is.

...it's close enough. How's that elephant doing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval



Show one example in my posts where I "demanded that others pay for my misfortune."