RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/10/2009 6:03:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

The "you" in the previous post appears to be personally directed.  And how about these definitions of Social Darwinism?  I say that philosophy is right on the money as per usual.


"Social Darwinism  
n.  The application of Darwinism to the study of human society, specifically a theory in sociology that individuals or groups achieve advantage over others as the result of genetic or biological superiority."


a 19th-century theory, inspired by Darwinism, by which the social order is accounted as the product of natural selection of those persons best suited to existing living conditions and in accord with which a position of laissez-faire is advocated."

social Darwinism  
n.  The application of Darwinism to the study of human society, specifically a theory in sociology that individuals or groups achieve advantage over others as the result of genetic or biological superiority."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/social+darwinism



Which just proves you need to be careful about taking things on the net at face value. What is describe above is eugenics, a very narrow sub-theory of Social Darwinism. SD is a much broader field, puportedly concerned with evolution of societies through competition. It was hijacked into a perjorative connotation by Richard Hofstadter ( a Communist, not to be confused with Douglas or Robert Hofstadter) and been used to defame conservatives ever since.


And I suppose I need to further spell things out for this group. My position has nothing to do with Social Darwinism, and is based only on personal vs societal responsibilities vs governmental responsibilities. The latter two are not the same.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/10/2009 6:07:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Yeah, I'd say that "it's not my fucking problem, you should probably just be grateful to have lived this long anyway" fits pretty squarely in that set of definitions. 


and your continual perversion of what other people say is why you have 0 credibility or respect of anyone on this board who actually thinks.




LadyPact -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/10/2009 6:11:25 PM)

I'm not going to quote everyone directly.  I'm afraid I just don't have the time.

The roads, the fire department, the police, etc are a much different issue here.  Believe it or not, I've made My contributions (as have you) to those through taxes.  I'd have no problem presenting My SSN # if I needed any public service.

There is nothing wrong with taking the stance that every person who receives care should be responsible for the cost of it.  Yes, that includes My elderly parent (My Mother is deceased) and My um's.  That's because they are Mine.  When they are not Mine, I do not expect to foot the bill.   That includes higher cost because somebody else didn't feel the same way.  I have no interest in picking up the tab (read the bill about those who can't afford this.... who do you think is paying in the end?) when it comes back in taxes.

Somebody brought up auto insurance and I think it works the very same way.  On My policy, I have coverage should I have a collision with an uninsured driver.  I do so because I know that other people aren't especially as considerate in the scheme of responsibilities as I am and I might be sharing the road with them.  It's the same with any medical condition that is contagious.  I know those possibilities exist.  If that happens, I would absolutely take care of Myself, just like I expect anyone else to when it comes time to deal with the bill.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/10/2009 6:11:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Yeah, I'd say that "it's not my fucking problem, you should probably just be grateful to have lived this long anyway" fits pretty squarely in that set of definitions. 


and your continual perversion of what other people say is why you have 0 credibility or respect of anyone on this board who actually thinks.


How on earth would you know?

OK, that was too easy to pass up. But I tell ya what, Willbe ol' buddy, here's your big chance to set the record straight. What part of that did I get wrong? Go ahead, show me how I'm distorting your meaning, oh aggrieved one.




LadyPact -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/10/2009 6:52:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Yeah, I'd say that "it's not my fucking problem, you should probably just be grateful to have lived this long anyway" fits pretty squarely in that set of definitions. 


and your continual perversion of what other people say is why you have 0 credibility or respect of anyone on this board who actually thinks.


I absolutely take exception with that.




rulemylife -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/10/2009 6:53:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


OK, let me defend it.

You rely on the government for safety, right?

You don't want bombs dropping on your house, or criminals breaking down your doors.

So, explain the difference to me.

Isn't your health more of a primary safety issue?



Huge difference. Enemies and criminals are outside forces who's impact can be mitigated by military and police, government functions that an individual cannot replicate.


Really?  That's odd.  Because I keep hearing this NRA propaganda phrase that goes something like: "when you only have seconds to spare the police are minutes away".

And I keep hearing the Second Amendment argument that we must have the right to bear arms because we can't trust those government functions.

quote:


Your health is a personal issue and largely unaffected by outside influences. To the extent there are outside influences, such as ineffective or harmful treatments, environmental issues etc then the government is and should be involved.


Why?

Why is your health any more of a personal issue than your personal safety against anything else that may harm you?

If we really want to go down that road I can argue that the government should not be offering you police protection, fire protection, ambulance service, or any of a number of other things. 

Those should be your responsibility based on your argument.





OrionTheWolf -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/10/2009 7:22:00 PM)

You make yourself look pretty unintelligent when you say things like this. I may not agree with everything Panda writes, but there is still a huge amount of respect there.

So who the fuck are you that has some psychic ability to read everyone's mind? Nevermind, I know, you are just talking out of your ass, because what you have stated her really stinks. Maybe a size 11 breath mint might clear that up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
and your continual perversion of what other people say is why you have 0 credibility or respect of anyone on this board who actually thinks.




AnimusRex -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/10/2009 7:59:58 PM)

Fast reply-
You know, the arguments so far against health care reform run from the absurd (the Kenyan Kommie is going to unplug Gramma!) or petty carping (I might have to wait 3 weeks to get an enema!)

But actually, the strongest argument would be that the government should only provide those things which the private sector can't; This would be a very good argument, except that the private market is not working currently; some people get very good care, others get nothing; and everyone pays much more than anywhere else inthe world for the same level of care.

You could argue that health care should be like any other commodity like toasters, but then you have to accept that some people would not be able to afford it, and therefore they would have to go without treatment, and literally die. Sorry, thats just the logical conclusion. But few people really want to own up to it.




LadyPact -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/10/2009 8:27:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Fast reply-
You know, the arguments so far against health care reform run from the absurd (the Kenyan Kommie is going to unplug Gramma!) or petty carping (I might have to wait 3 weeks to get an enema!)

But actually, the strongest argument would be that the government should only provide those things which the private sector can't; This would be a very good argument, except that the private market is not working currently; some people get very good care, others get nothing; and everyone pays much more than anywhere else inthe world for the same level of care.

You could argue that health care should be like any other commodity like toasters, but then you have to accept that some people would not be able to afford it, and therefore they would have to go without treatment, and literally die. Sorry, thats just the logical conclusion. But few people really want to own up to it.


This is the crux of the argument.  If people could afford the same amount as this wonderful government insurance plan for their own medical bills, we wouldn't be having this debate.

The private sector doesn't want to be it's brother's keeper.  If they did, the health care 'crisis' wouldn't exist.






Vendaval -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 2:43:14 AM)

As do I.  Most the regular posters in the Politics and Religion and Off Topic Forums know when to agree to disagree and a person's attitude very much affects whether they are perceived as credible or a crackpot.

Panda is a very rational and logical man with a great amount of compassion and insight.  And yes, I know him in person.



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Yeah, I'd say that "it's not my fucking problem, you should probably just be grateful to have lived this long anyway" fits pretty squarely in that set of definitions. 


and your continual perversion of what other people say is why you have 0 credibility or respect of anyone on this board who actually thinks.


I absolutely take exception with that.





slvemike4u -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 9:07:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

As do I.  Most the regular posters in the Politics and Religion and Off Topic Forums know when to agree to disagree and a person's attitude very much affects whether they are perceived as credible or a crackpot.

Panda is a very rational and logical man with a great amount of compassion and insight.  And yes, I know him in person.



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Yeah, I'd say that "it's not my fucking problem, you should probably just be grateful to have lived this long anyway" fits pretty squarely in that set of definitions. 


and your continual perversion of what other people say is why you have 0 credibility or respect of anyone on this board who actually thinks.


I absolutely take exception with that.


Ven I don't have the pleasure of knowing Panda personally but I do respect his opinions(whether or not willbeur would count me as an actual thinker matters not a whit to me).
Glass houses and bricks does come to mind here.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 9:41:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Yeah, I'd say that "it's not my fucking problem, you should probably just be grateful to have lived this long anyway" fits pretty squarely in that set of definitions. 


and your continual perversion of what other people say is why you have 0 credibility or respect of anyone on this board who actually thinks.


How on earth would you know?

OK, that was too easy to pass up. But I tell ya what, Willbe ol' buddy, here's your big chance to set the record straight. What part of that did I get wrong? Go ahead, show me how I'm distorting your meaning, oh aggrieved one.




I know because I read the responses to your drivel from both sides of the aisle.

What part did you get wrong? Everything.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 9:48:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


But actually, the strongest argument would be that the government should only provide those things which the private sector can't;



Almost correct. The government should only provide those things which the private sector can't provide at least as efficiently, and those things where there will be no free rider issues.

many will say the private sector can provide everything more efficiently and they would probably be close to correct. However, the free rider problem exists with many services, and therefore taxes have to be levied to share the burden. eg. It could be argued that even the military could be provided more efficiently than the government does. However, since everyone benefits from the protection of the military, people can't be allowed to decide whether they will pay for it or not. similar for public schools, etc




philosophy -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 10:02:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


It could be argued that even the military could be provided more efficiently than the government does. However, since everyone benefits from the protection of the military, people can't be allowed to decide whether they will pay for it or not. similar for public schools, etc



...and following your own logic, it can equally be argued that universal health care also benefits the whole of society. Why exclude health from the same model you apparently apply to education, military, roads.....oh, and from one of your earlier posts, disease prevention?




Mercnbeth -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 10:49:45 AM)

~ Fast Reply ~


Who is this Health Care proposal benefiting and at what cost?

According to the Census Bureau's 2005 Current Population Survey (CPS), there were 45.8 million uninsured individuals in 2004, or 15.7% of the civilian non-institutionalized population. From the same source 25% or 11,450,000 are below the poverty line. Under the terms of the current plan under debate these people would pay little, if anything, to become insured. There will be 34,350,000 outside the government determined 'Federal Poverty Level' (FPL) who will be required to pay whatever the premium is for their particular age and risk status.

Although some business will be required to provide coverage meeting a number of employee threshold; small businesses, like mine, will have the opportunity to fix cost and no longer carry the burden of budgeting for ever increasing health premiums. The onus, per President Obama, will be for individuals to participate and pay or be subject to fines.

Who benefits? Well, obviously for the first three years with no government option in play, the insurance companies will have government mandated customers. The doctors will have a large influx of new, and insurance covered paying patients. No wonder they've endorsed the plan. I'm confused why the insurance companies haven't yet - but maybe they had the same difficulty as I reading through and understanding the cross referenced verbiage.

But of course there are other beneficiaries such as those disclosing their own personal crises on these boards. There will be no denial of coverage, no pre-existing condition exclusion, no 'black listing'. Everyone will have access and if you are 'lucky' enough not to have an income exceeding the FPL, you may not even have to pay a dime out of pocket. Tried as I may, I didn't find any provision that addresses caps in coverage. The 'catastrophic' health occurrence is still possible per my read through, although if someone can point to that not being the case - I'll stand corrected. Perhaps a minor issue, but wasn't that the other cornerstone behind the reasoning to implement a national health program? If you can still "lose everything" once your policy has maxed out, whether you've paid for it, or some other taxpayer, participant is footing the bill for you, it seems that issue is still looming.

There are some other exclusions, the biggest being abortion. Personally I never understood how this is a conservative issue. Religious maybe but conservative? Hell, pragmatically to avoid the expense and all the other issues, obligations, and entitlements now in place for um's you would think the pragmatic conservative view for abortions would be just to opposite or at minimum a "buy one get one free!" However it was the most explicit language in the document - not one penny of coverage goes to abortion. Setting the stage for the first court test when the agenda based debate of mother's health to unborn's health will be argued by people not involved with the situation.

I understand that I am in the minority. I have insurance. I pay for my employees insurance. I believe in self accountability. I also believe in access. Looking at this bill how many people do you think fall into the specific case of wanting insurance and being 'black-balled' or denied coverage at any cost? The majority of those above the FPL choose to not buy coverage. They aren't denied. They've made a personal decision. Now that decision is taken away from them. The people who are denied coverage or don't have the ability to pay or have been excluded seem to me to be a much smaller number.

Care to pick one, or a percentage? Can it be, from a pool of 45.8 million uninsured provided by this 2004 government report 10% of that number? or about 5 Million? That would represent less than 2% of the population falling outside the current insurance industry underwriting guidelines. Is a commitment for all generations to come to pay for this current program justified in lieu of a much simpler and easier to implement solution? Why not simply eliminate the insurance company exclusions? Why not have the existing Medicare program become the insurer of last resort and cover these. Then if taxes and/or fees go up citizens will know exactly why and what they are. Meanwhile, personal choice about where to spend your money for the other group of people represented now by those who can, but do not buy, available coverage won't have to abdicate that choice to the government.

Just some questions and a thought or two.




Lorr47 -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 11:10:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Yeah, I'd say that "it's not my fucking problem, you should probably just be grateful to have lived this long anyway" fits pretty squarely in that set of definitions. 


and your continual perversion of what other people say is why you have 0 credibility or respect of anyone on this board who actually thinks.


It seems to me that you have just described yourself. Suffering from "moral supremacy" again?




tazzygirl -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 11:19:52 AM)

A few things Merc. First, FPL for an individual is only around 9000 dollars. You do the math on that one. No way to pay for living expenses and insurance too. The cut off limit, as i have explained before, is 400% FPL. Then you start paying according to a scale.

Abortion is to be self payed, as it is now, except when in the cases of rape, incest or the health of the mother. I dont see a test case for that coming up. If it had, it would have long ago. This also does not deny coverage from complications resulting from an abortion.

I am out the door, ill take up the rest later.




Mercnbeth -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 11:40:00 AM)

quote:

A few things Merc. First, FPL for an individual is only around 9000 dollars. You do the math on that one. No way to pay for living expenses and insurance too. The cut off limit, as i have explained before, is 400% FPL. Then you start paying according to a scale.


The pick a number question is still outstanding. Your point is directed to a smaller pool of people paying for a bigger group of people who won't have to pay. It doesn't change the fundamental position that the majority of people currently healthy and able who don't use their disposable income to purchase available health coverage will be required, under penalty, to purchase insurance.

Using 400% and applying whatever pool that generates how many fall into the 'uninsurable' category? How many of the worse cases will be satiated by this commitment? Then you can reply to if this is the only way, or even the best way to address, that problem.




tazzygirl -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 3:39:09 PM)

Care to pick one, or a percentage? Can it be, from a pool of 45.8 million uninsured provided by this 2004 government report 10% of that number? or about 5 Million? That would represent less than 2% of the population falling outside the current insurance industry underwriting guidelines. Is a commitment for all generations to come to pay for this current program justified in lieu of a much simpler and easier to implement solution? Why not simply eliminate the insurance company exclusions? Why not have the existing Medicare program become the insurer of last resort and cover these. Then if taxes and/or fees go up citizens will know exactly why and what they are. Meanwhile, personal choice about where to spend your money for the other group of people represented now by those who can, but do not buy, available coverage won't have to abdicate that choice to the government.

Im assuming you mean this. And, gee, thank you for telling me what i may respond too. Your assumption that the majority of those above the FPL dont want insurance is, just that, your assumption, nothing more.

If you recall, way back when these numbers and the health care issue was all about the "death panels", it was also mentioned that many of these people who fall around the FPL would be eligible for medicaid, medicare. They just havent applied for these programs. This initiative would push people to sign up to see what they are eligible for.

Posted on November 2, 2009 16:00

Post Type: report

This four-part report series released by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured calculates how many uninsured Americans could gain coverage through variations of health reform being currently being considered in Congress.



From the reports:

Non-Elderly Uninsured: If Medicaid were expanded to 133 percent of the FPL and subsidies were provided to those with income between 133 and 399 percent of the FPL, an estimated three quarters of the 43.9 million non-elderly uninsured would be eligible for financial assistance in obtaining coverage. Specifically, some 38.7 percent would be eligible for Medicaid and 37.2 percent would be eligible for subsidies to purchase coverage. Fewer than ten percent of the uninsured have income of at least 400 percent of the FPL and would not qualify for subsidies. Another 14.2 percent are non-citizens who would not be eligible due to their authorization status or because they have resided in the United States for fewer than five years.

Childless Adults: In 2007, 25.1 million non-elderly childless adults were uninsured, accounting for 57.2 percent of the uninsured non-elderly in the United States. Under the reform options modeled here, 38.4 percent of uninsured childless adults or 9.6 million would be eligible under a Medicaid expansion to 133 percent of the FPL. Another 37.5 percent or 9.4 million have incomes between 133 and 399 percent of the FPL and would be eligible for subsidies to purchase insurance in a reformed market. Eleven percent or 2.8 million would not be eligible for either a Medicaid expansion or a subsidy due to their income being at least 400 percent of the FPL, but would still be required to purchase coverage under an individual mandate. Another 13.0 percent of uninsured childless adults would also not be eligible for Medicaid or subsidies because they are either unauthorized immigrants or authorized immigrants who have been in the country for less than five years

http://www.samhsa.gov/Financing/post/How-Will-the-Uninsured-Be-Affected-by-Health-Care.aspx




Mercnbeth -> RE: AMA & AARP endorse House health care bills (11/11/2009 5:26:27 PM)

quote:

Your assumption that the majority of those above the FPL dont want insurance is, just that, your assumption, nothing more.
I made no such assumption I stated a fact. They don't chose to buy it now - they will have to buy it under the requirement of the pending Bill.

Appreciate that you and everyone else who supports this can answer anything you want. You, however didn't answer anything.

Care to pick one, or a percentage? Can it be, from a pool of 45.8 million uninsured provided by this 2004 government report 10% of that number? or about 5 Million? That would represent less than 2% of the population falling outside the current insurance industry underwriting guidelines. Is a commitment for all generations to come to pay for this current program justified in lieu of a much simpler and easier to implement solution? Why not simply eliminate the insurance company exclusions? Why not have the existing Medicare program become the insurer of last resort and cover these. Then if taxes and/or fees go up citizens will know exactly why and what they are. Meanwhile, personal choice about where to spend your money for the other group of people represented now by those who can, but do not buy, available coverage won't have to abdicate that choice to the government.
Apparently these are questions nobody wants to answer. YEAH for the new Bill!

Who's eligible isn't the question. I read that once the Bill is passed everyone will be eligible paying according to their ability. Many can do this now and don't. Then there is this interesting group you point out. "They just haven't applied for these programs. This initiative would push people to sign up to see what they are eligible for. " This is best way to get people to apply for what they can get now? That's the case made for this Bill?




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